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07-20-2015, 08:02 PM | #21 |
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Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Greenbird brings up an interesting point about the distributor. Might be worth pulling it and check the gear. The 239 used a different tooth count than the 272 and up. That might tell you if there was a later cam, as the cam gear drives this. Next question, I assume you have the "spacer" on the water pump, and that means you have the 272 up water pump. The 239 water pump is smaller IIRC. I know your earlier post said you have a 239 casting number on the block. I don't recall if you found the head castings # or not. I don't know what if anything you can do to fit later internals into the 239 block, but someone here will. Might be worth pulling the dist and pan and having a look.
While I'm sure this is depressing, look at the bright side. When I bought my 55, I caught that the right rear quarter had been replaced with a 56 panel. The door latch had a spacer plate. What I didn't catch was that it was welded on a 1/4" low at the taillight. It's a lot easier to change the motor and transfer the bird parts than it is to tear a quarter panel off. |
07-20-2015, 08:35 PM | #22 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
its a waste of time.with the info he has given theres no hope.
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07-20-2015, 09:10 PM | #23 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
dareell,
With all due respect, he's got more info from other post. The car runs. There's always hope, and a solution. |
07-20-2015, 11:27 PM | #24 |
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
The car of course, was originally built with a 292. Would most of the parts from the 292, including those you have mentioned bolt onto the 239? I did find the block stamp that definitely indicated it was a 239. The intake manifold is stamped "ECZ 9425 A", and the carb had a tag under one of the top 4 screws that showed "B6A-9510-Q". I couldn't find the 9510-Q on internet searches, but found 9510-H and 9510-L that looked very much like mine. I think that makes it a tea pot 4v. I'll attach a couple of pictures showing the carb and distributor in case it helps.
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07-21-2015, 07:14 AM | #25 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Based on the pictures of the fuel bowl cover, the carburetor is a 1956 model. Based on the tag number, it's a 1956 Ford/Mercury 292 carb and not a Thunderbird carb. Check out the List number stamped on the back flange of the carb and see if it is '1162'. If it is, then the tag number is correct.
At this point it would be helpful to know the casting numbers on the heads. The 239 heads did have the smaller ports and as such, there is the potential for vacuum leaks at the intake port with the later model manifolds. Are your spark plugs 14mm or 18mm. That would be another clue as to whether the heads are from a 239 or 256 engine. |
07-21-2015, 11:11 AM | #26 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
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'55 uses a single vacuum line between the the carb & dist and '56 uses a double line. IIRC the dist vacuum port pressures are not the same between '55 & '56 carbs. The round vacuum advance unit on the '55 dists is a single can and the '56 uses a double can. The internal springs are also different. Since it seems like you have a '56 carb & a '56 dist you may have dodged a big problem there, even tho it may not be a 'T-Bird correct' carb. Are there any part numbers or a # tag on your distributor? When you look at the lower portion of your dist. housing does it have the part circled in yellow? Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-21-2015 at 05:01 PM. |
07-21-2015, 01:43 PM | #27 |
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Looking at the pictures - that's a '56 style distributor with two vacuum lines. And if the tachometer works - it probably has the drive cable too. This is all most likely "top end" stuff from the original car. It would take a VERY knowledgeable mechanic to make a 239 work with that distributor in my opinion. Early in one of the threads it says the engine is a later version - my money says 272 block at least. Oil pump and waterpump parts say so to me.
Ted recently gave some pretty good advice about T-pot carbs to another fellow - first use lots of carb cleaner and compressed air and clean/blow out the orifices at the top center. This thing ran before - needs a tune-up most likely. Make sure the points are set and the initial timing is correct at idle. The engines actually like 10º better than the 5º-6º on the spec sheet. Parts for the "rock" style fuel filter are advertised at a bunch of T-bird aftermarket suppliers. |
07-21-2015, 03:17 PM | #28 |
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Incidentally - this is a nice looking little car - and in better body shape than many I've seen. Don't get too overwhelmed by "originality" - this vehicle is nearly 60 years old and a lot of things happen in that period of time. You are allowed so few changes to a car for it to be judged "original" - most just can't hack it unless worked over very carefully by an expert restoration outfit. I eventually found that making mine that perfect would cost much more than it was worth - and thereafter, I set about making it enjoyable. For me - it was the right decision - I wanted a driver car, not a trailer queen. If you don't have old fashioned tune-up tools - get some - a vacuum gauge, a timing light and some feeler gauges is a start. I also advocate a "dwell / tachometer", continuity tester light, and some sort of thermometer. If you don't learn to take care of some simple stuff yourself - its going to be very expensive.
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07-21-2015, 04:57 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Quote:
Example: His block is a '54 EBU 239 that would have used a flat/slot drive for the oil pump & dist. The late 256's(?) 272's and newer used a hex drive. If some internal parts were changed (correctly) a '56 T-Bird distributor could be on the engine. OR, A '56 dbl vac advance canister might have been put on the older '54 dist. and the dash tach changed to an electric one. 'IF' the timing advance works right that's fine, but if it doesn't then you know why. . Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-28-2016 at 12:57 AM. |
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07-21-2015, 06:49 PM | #30 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
I'm going to assume at this point the car has been running before. It has the necessary road grime to imply it has been run - not freshly assembled and parked.
The mechanical tachometer cable appears twice in the available pictures - but seems to just droop over the kickdown linkage behind the D.S. cylinder head (or not?). There are a pair of extraneous wire terminals attached to the coil - which would allow for an electric tachometer to function. It hasn't been mentioned if the tach was in the dash position or otherwise. That would solve that one. I'm not certain if you can put the double can advance set-up on an earlier distributor. The engine in my '56 was a 312 four barrel - with auto trans and one of these distributors. One of the chambers of the advance simply "offset" the other - added an amount of advance when the engine wasn't under load (high manifold vacuum). The other provided "venturi" vacuum to approximate engine speed - and therefore govern the usual advance with increasing RPM. It doesn't work very well or reliably either one - and Ford changed to a different system in 1957. At any rate - if they are working, one of the vacuum tubes would be giving you a steadily increasing vacuum as rpm rises - and the other would behave as manifold vacuum, it would drop with an opening throttle. Last edited by GREENBIRD56; 07-21-2015 at 07:15 PM. |
07-21-2015, 08:59 PM | #31 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Man, you guys are amazing, I can hardly keep up with you.
I agree, my goal is to just get the old bird running decently, and hopefully somewhat reliably, to just enjoy driving it and maybe going to cruise-ins to let others enjoy it. I'm starting to think that maybe instead of just detective work, it's beginning to turn into a treasure hunt. Here is some more info. to answer some of the earlier questions. These may be somewhat in random order as I don't remember what order the questions were. The only stamp I saw on the back flange of the carb was "ECZ 9510" (there might have been more, but I couldn't see what might have been after the 9510. This may be the good news. I truly thought the spark plugs would be the smaller ones since the block clearly showed it was a 239. I had two spark plug sockets from forever ago, and the larger one, marked 13/16 worked. The plug was an Autolite 437. My heads have the large freeze plugs on the ends. Maybe they came from the same 1956 Ford/Mercury 292 that the carb came from? I couldn't see to find a number on the distributor, too much stuff in the way. I think the tach could very well be an electric one. While it is in the original position, it is not the original tach. It is an Autogage by Auto Meter. Eventually, we will find out what all I have and I can document it for future parts hunts and maybe making some changes to improve the running and reliability. The guy I bought it from thought it was a 292 and was told it was a 292 when he bought it. Now I know why he thought it was. |
07-22-2015, 12:35 AM | #32 | ||
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Quote:
Quote:
The Autolite #437 is a 14mm thread spark plug that has a metal gasket seal. http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartDetail.aspx?b=A&pn=437 Starting with '55 Fords and for a '56 Thunderbird 292 Autolite lists an 18mm thread spark plug with a tapered seat/seal. http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartD...aspx?b=A&pn=46 They both use a 13/16 socket. With the smaller thread spark plug hole, the heads you have are the '54 style (239/256) heads. (I've had this 'spark plug surprise' too.) . . Last edited by dmsfrr; 07-28-2016 at 01:00 AM. |
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07-22-2015, 03:57 AM | #33 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
I cant help but it sure would be nice if someone could throuw in a "like" button on this pages. Info given here is truly precious.
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07-24-2015, 12:18 PM | #34 | |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Quote:
It seems most folks either don't use it or don't know it's there. |
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07-24-2015, 03:18 PM | #35 |
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Re: Questions regarding idle on early Y-block
Ok, let's add some more information and answer the question as to why a 239 could work. Most 239's were EBU engines. However, Ford used 239's also in their 1955 Trucks. Some have even been found in 1956 trucks though this is rare. The 55 Ford truck had a 239 that was different from the EBU in these aspects... 1. smaller camshaft journals (a 272, 292, or a 312 cam would fit) and 2. Hex shaft distributor and oil pump with the same number of teeth on the distributor/cam to match later 272's and up.
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