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Old 01-02-2021, 01:30 PM   #1
edzaha
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Default Nitrocellulose

I know this is going to start a firestorm but I'll ask anyway. I really want to paint my Vikki with Nitro lacquer. I am going to go with Brewster Green Medium as lower body color. Would any one know where I could get some. About 10 years ago I bought 4 gals (it was their min) from Hirsch, but thanks to the government they don't carry it anymore. Any help?
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Old 01-02-2021, 01:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

If you have the paint and it’s been stored properly, why not use it? Maybe I’m misreading that you had paint but no longer have such?
Certain things should be addressed such as substrate and compatibility. Nitro is more apt to chip and flake than some of more current paints. Buying enough new paint to paint a car will be very pricy!!
Brent is certified maybe he will address. He has more experience with paint than most that comment.
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Old 01-02-2021, 01:57 PM   #3
Gary Karr
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Hibernia Restorations used to mix nitrocellulose lacquer but I doubt they still sell it. I bought several gallons from them over 20 years ago and was very satisfied with it.
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Old 01-02-2021, 01:58 PM   #4
edzaha
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Yes I sold what I did not use, I'm sorry now.
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Old 01-02-2021, 01:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Perfect example for voting carefully..

A long shot but advertise 'Wanted' and see. The problem there will be how was the paint stored all this time.

Better chance finding acrylic lacquer.

Good luck Ed
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Old 01-02-2021, 02:05 PM   #6
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edzaha View Post
I know this is going to start a firestorm but I'll ask anyway. I really want to paint my Vikki with Nitro lacquer. I am going to go with Brewster Green Medium as lower body color. Would any one know where I could get some. About 10 years ago I bought 4 gals (it was their min) from Hirsch, but thanks to the government they don't carry it anymore. Any help?

A Jim said, better chance of going with Acrylic Lacquer. CP Global is another option for acrylic.


The government really did not have anything to do with it. Anyone can shoot Lacquer paint up to 50 gallons annually without a certificate. I can purchase and use up to 250 gallons of Lacquer products (-i.e.: thinners, top coats) annually. Matter of fact, some cheaper brand aerosol spray cans found in big-box stores have Lacquer as their contents.

The real reason why most Jobbers don't want to mess with carrying Lacquer is because the toners will go back and dry in the can while it is setting on the shelf waiting to be used again on the next formula. Imagine having a gallon of toner that weighs nearly 4000 grams, and to mix a gallon Brewster calls for 60 grams of Strong Yellow and 110 grams of Oxide Red with the rest made up of more popular bases. Imagine a paint jobber using 5%-10% of a full gallon toner color over a 3-4 year span ...only then they find it has hardened so it must be discarded. Not a very good ROI for them.
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Old 01-02-2021, 03:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

There is your problem, 'Oxides'. Any toner (tint) that was an oxide was banned MANY years ago, even before the entire product line was obsolete. Substitutions can be made but final color won't be the same.
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Old 01-02-2021, 03:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
A Jim said, better chance of going with Acrylic Lacquer. CP Global is another option for acrylic.


The government really did not have anything to do with it. Anyone can shoot Lacquer paint up to 50 gallons annually without a certificate. I can purchase and use up to 250 gallons of Lacquer products (-i.e.: thinners, top coats) annually. Matter of fact, some cheaper brand aerosol spray cans found in big-box stores have Lacquer as their contents.

The real reason why most Jobbers don't want to mess with carrying Lacquer is because the toners will go back and dry in the can while it is setting on the shelf waiting to be used again on the next formula. Imagine having a gallon of toner that weighs nearly 4000 grams, and to mix a gallon Brewster calls for 60 grams of Strong Yellow and 110 grams of Oxide Red with the rest made up of more popular bases. Imagine a paint jobber using 5%-10% of a full gallon toner color over a 3-4 year span ...only then they find it has hardened so it must be discarded. Not a very good ROI for them.
I always wondered about this, was told no more lacquer but I still see gallon cans of thinner at the hardware store. Retired now but in the past I sprayed a lot of acrylic lacquer.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Old 01-02-2021, 04:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

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There is your problem, 'Oxides'. Any toner (tint) that was an oxide was banned MANY years ago, even before the entire product line was obsolete. Substitutions can be made but final color won't be the same.

Yes you are partially correct. Many Red Oxide paints were known to have heavy metals (Lead) in them. They can still be used on low-trace amounts however there is a premium paid for the usage. Many of PPG's DCC line (a/k/a Concept) have heavy metals in them which is why that paint is so expensive compared to other single-stage products.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post

The government really did not have anything to do with it. Anyone can shoot Lacquer paint up to 50 gallons annually without a certificate. I can purchase and use up to 250 gallons of Lacquer products (-i.e.: thinners, top coats) annually. Matter of fact, some cheaper brand aerosol spray cans found in big-box stores have Lacquer as their contents.
Our government here in California definitely had something to do with lacquer paint. I can no longer buy lacquer paint in California. I have the stuff shipped out of state to a relative and he forwards it on to me. I can not buy the good slow lacquer thinners in California so I have to make up my own. I can buy the retarders out of state that slow down the lacquer thinner and have them shipped directly to me and I can buy the basic lacquer thinner and here in California and I mix my own "slow" thinner but the California Government will not allow the "slow" thinners to be sold in California.

I still use Acrylic Lacquer but it is getting harder to do.

Chris W.
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Old 01-03-2021, 05:33 AM   #11
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Give Ed Fitts a call.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...light=Brewster

Last edited by jwmckenzie; 01-03-2021 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

A person can still get basic nitrocellulose lacquer in clear form or even nitrocellulose acetate which was better suited for making of pyroxylin coated cloth or dope for aircraft covering. Adding the pigment as a toner was what made it a colored paint. It takes a lot of coats to get a good cover.

The problem with the stuff is the high concentration of fumes during the spraying and drying process. The stuff is very explosive too. Gun Cotton was made by treating cotton with nitric and sulfuric acids. Using the acids with cotton fibers or wood pulp to make the nitrocellulose can be just as expensive or more so when compared to acrylics or urethanes due to the precautions that have to be taken. Folks just don't want the liability anymore.
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Old 01-03-2021, 08:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

the new products, at least to me, all shine in the ease of use and time savings. there are single stage urethanes.
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Old 01-03-2021, 11:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Single stage urethanes are very good and can make a very good finish that closely mimics the original lacquer but I do not have a good place to paint urethanes. It takes a better dust free paint area than I have.

I have a '32 Roadster that I had done by my friends body shop using single stage and the results were outstanding. I did all the metal work and fitting of everything and he did the final finish and applied the color.

Chris W.
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Old 01-03-2021, 11:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Nitrocellulose

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
Our government here in California definitely had something to do with lacquer paint. I can no longer buy lacquer paint in California. I have the stuff shipped out of state to a relative and he forwards it on to me. I can not buy the good slow lacquer thinners in California so I have to make up my own. I can buy the retarders out of state that slow down the lacquer thinner and have them shipped directly to me and I can buy the basic lacquer thinner and here in California and I mix my own "slow" thinner but the California Government will not allow the "slow" thinners to be sold in California.

I still use Acrylic Lacquer but it is getting harder to do.

Chris W.

Well said, Chris. And it varies within California as well. In the SF Bay Area you are not allowed to use single-stage urethane at all because the VOC (Volatile Organic Carbon) content is too high - you must use a basecoat/clearcoat combo. (That's the Bay Area Air Quality Management District, which has similar regs to South Coast AQMD). But I can drive an hour to a different Air Quality Management District (Monterey Bay AQMD) and purchase single-stage paints.

And it's not just automotive paints. Old fashioned "solvent-based" polyurethane wood floor coating is only available in quart cans or less, no gallons. So to do a floor in the old school stuff (you know, the stuff that lasts for years and years) you need to somehow get someone to order you case-lots of quart cans. Otherwise you have to use the newer water-based top coats, which in my experience don't last on floors or cabinets worth a damn.

And don't even think about buying nitrocellulose lacquer in a rattle can.

Fortunately Reno is not too far for me to drive, I can easily do it back and forth in one day.

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