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Old 03-08-2021, 04:57 PM   #241
Synchro909
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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There is another reality coming down the Model A road; even though 4.8 million Model A's were produced, the number of good blocks is shrinking quickly. The shop I deal with says they throw away 6 or so bad blocks for every rebuildable block they use. If the new Terry Burtz block cannot turn the corner on cost effectiveness, there will still be fewer and fewer original blocks available. I don't know of anyone trying to reproduce the original blocks but I don't know much. Maybe someone will and the standards committees will allow them in show cars?
In the mean time, I applaud Mr. Burtz (and his team) for continuing the effort to bring his new block to the market and while it is more expensive, I sure would like to build one with a blower to see how far the new engine can be taken. Imagine a 200 HP Model A engine! Of course, I don't have the money to do this but it is fun to dream.
A few years back, I saw the pile of blocks Brattons was about to throw out. After looking at some of them, I concluded many were quite salvageable. The blocks with cracks were marked at the crack and obviously, I couldn't crack test them but many of those not marked as cracked appeared salvageable. Maybe they had just not marked all of the cracks - who knows.
IMO, it depends how much the customer is prepared to spend to use them. The occasional stripped thread, for example that some use to justify discarding a block really is no problem.
You guys wouldn't believe what is brought back to life when no replacements are available. A ready supply of parts has lead to hasty disposal of not so bad parts, IMO.
I know of a guy in this state who has recast an engine block for his car, the only one of its type in the world after the original could not be repaired again. It was an expensive undertaking but it saved a valuable car. There is another guy who making 6 brand new 1920s Rolls Royce engines so he can use his cars. What was that about necessity being the mother of invention?
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:01 PM   #242
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:31 PM   #243
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?
Like I said, Genebob, it all depends on how much the customer is prepared to pay. IMO, an original block sleeved properly with the right materials could be better than a new one.
Whether made in the Midwest or China, to us they are all foreign made. It just shows how far we have fallen behind and how many skills are being or are already lost.
I'm counting on the new engine being smoother running and agree with you about swapping to a modern engine.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:57 PM   #244
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

No matter how we look at this thing, it comes down to 'Pay to Play.' You have to ask yourself "How badly do I want to go down this road?"

I've yet to find a hobby that doesn't get expensive rather quickly. Been pricing anything in the firearms sector recently? Or old coins? Or Petroliana?? A glass gasoline pump globe can set you back $3,000-$4,000 for a fairly moderate collectible globe. Even the entry level globes, the common ones, are bringing $400-$500 a pop. Neon signs start anywhere from $4,000 and up. For a single sided neon side. Double that for two sided. And $20K isn't unheard of for a neon sign, like the Ford Crest signs of the early 50's. Owwwww.

Old cars sure can set you back in coin But then so does everything else. I don't golf, have a boat, go to gambling casinos, or have horses but my friends that do tell me what THEY pay for that fun and it ain't cheap!!
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Old 03-09-2021, 09:01 AM   #245
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Jeff, you reminded me of a story. When my first daughter was an early teen, she showed a great talent in riding horses. At the time, I wanted to buy a small boat but the powers that be, convinced me to buy a horse for our daughter. I found out that, unlike the proverbial boat, a horse is a hole wrapped in fur into which you will pour money.
It is just kinda sad that the Model A is going from a poor man's collector car to a collector car that will turn you into a poor man.
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Old 03-09-2021, 02:04 PM   #246
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I would get exited if this much effort were put forth in eliminating engine vibrations.

That would be simple: Just engineer and install a balance shaft, like modern four bangers have. With some (major) machining you might be able to adapt one from a modern engine by changing the size of the counterweights. Go for it!
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Old 03-09-2021, 02:09 PM   #247
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Synchro, I was told some of the blocks are discarded because the cam bearing holes or the lifter bores are worn too far out of round. I was a little surprised that the non-cracked but very worn blocks were not sleeved or otherwise salvaged. Of course, I am not the one trying to salvage these either. Maybe is is a losing proposition to try to sleeve or use oversize replacement parts? Maybe there are not lifters that are over-sized enough?
I was hoping someone would correct me and tell everyone that someone is making original spec blocks.
My only disappointment with the Burtz effort is that they are all made in China. I was hoping he could find a foundry in the midwest that would take this on.
An earlier post suggested that the engines should be made to reduce vibrations; 5 mains, a truly balanced crank, updated pressure oiling and more modern rotating assemblies should go a long way to making a smoother running 4 banger. Beyond that, I think you need to swap out to a modern engine, but what's the fun in that?

Regarding a foundry, don't you think Terry has checked high and low for one? Sometimes you just have to face reality!
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Old 03-09-2021, 05:29 PM   #248
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

IMO, one of these new motors will go better than an original and last longer, yet from the outside look exactly like the original. Win - win! Sure, they might cost a little more than a rebuild but with less maintenance and longer life, they will be more economical in the long run.
My concern there is the availability of the bearing shells into the future but from here, I have no understanding of the situation over there. BTW, NONE of the GM cars that used those shell were sold here so my perception might be wrong.
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Old 03-09-2021, 07:00 PM   #249
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How many of us have bought new counterbalanced cranks, forged rods, installing insert bearings in our old original blocks, plus plus boring, sleeving and re-boring each cylinder and installed hardened valve seats

It doesn't take an economics degree or an engineering degree to see the value of this engine.

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Old 03-09-2021, 07:31 PM   #250
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I ran some costs out to compare the cost of the new Burtz assembly to a good condition B block.
I recently had a failure on a B block/engine that required I start over. I searched for some time to find a B block that was crack free and where the cylinders would clean up to allow for the use of .060" oversize pistons without sleeves. That block cost me $500.

When I started with this $500 B block and added what it took to approximately equal the Burtz assembly. The cost was between $1500 - $1700 higher to use the Burtz block. Granted, I have parts I can switch over from the failed block engine to the B rebuild. So it would cost me less but if I was starting from "scratch" the costs I state would be my cost. I built that B block and it is in my car and working good.

New block, new crank that is 100% weighted, 5 mains, full oil pressure to all journals, 5 journal cam support and 2" insert bearings. These are all valuable and are things I did not get with the B build.

I needed another engine that I wanted to deliver 80 to 100 hp for a current build. I have been on the list for one of the Burtz blocks for sometime now. I ordered one of the blocks as soon as they would take an order.

I realize it is not inexpensive to build up one of these engines.
IMO: I considered it well worth the investment.

I sent my funds in last week for one of the engine kits. I expect I should get delivery soon.
Good Day!

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Old 03-09-2021, 08:38 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The ship carrying the new engine kits is being unloaded at the dock in Los Angeles. We are expecting to have kits ready for pick-up or shipped from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA around March 22, 2021.


Syncro, The bearing inserts chosen for the new Model A engine were used by GM from 1955 until 2003 in 265, 283, and 327 V-8 engines, 194, 230, and 250 straight 6-engines, and 122, 140, and 153 straight 4-cylinder engines.

These engines were used in Buicks, Cadillacs, Checkers, GMCs, Isuzus, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs.

If you go to https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/844/2020CP/10002/-1 and click on "Vehicle Fitment" near the bottom left of the page, 201 pages will open listing 2410 different vehicle makes and models that used the 2020CP insert.

If any of the engines listed above were used in Australia, it will likely use the 2020CP bearing insert.
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Old 03-09-2021, 08:56 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Syncro, The bearing inserts chosen for the new Model A engine were used by GM from 1955 until 2003 in 265, 283, and 327 V-8 engines, 194, 230, and 250 straight 6-engines, and 122, 140, and 153 straight 4-cylinder engines.

These engines were used in Buicks, Cadillacs, Checkers, GMCs, Isuzus, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs.

If you go to https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/844/2020CP/10002/-1 and click on "Vehicle Fitment" near the bottom left of the page, 201 pages will open listing 2410 different vehicle makes and models that used the 2020CP insert.

If any of the engines listed above were used in Australia, it will likely use the 2020CP bearing insert.
Terry, I tried ordering from Jeggs but ran into trouble with their website. I suspect they put on too much security when access is from outside the US (understandably). Holden, now closed down, was GM's Australian branch and they may have used some of those engines, I don't know.
We had a few Isuzu models here but they were metric sizes, I think. Not in my lifetime (1948) have any of those other brands been sold new in Australia. A fellow Barner with whom I have had previous contact (like at the Pizza night in Reno) helped me out by buying them and sending them on. I owe him a debt.
I'm hoping that either I never need undersized shells or that they are still readily available over there and vendors are prepared to sell to me. Jeggs was not the first time I have had this trouble with an American supplier.
Another benefit of the new engine is that it is likely to run smoother than an original. If so, I plan on removing the flota mota mounts and installing solid ones again. it makes a big difference to how the car drives.
I am keenly awaiting the arrival of my new engine.
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Old 03-09-2021, 10:11 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The ship carrying the new engine kits is being unloaded at the dock in Los Angeles. We are expecting to have kits ready for pick-up or shipped from the warehouse in Hawthorne, CA around March 22, 2021.
Terry, we are eagerly anticipating arrival of the new engine kits in Beamsville Ontario Canada. Ted
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Old 03-09-2021, 10:26 PM   #254
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"Regarding a foundry, don't you think Terry has checked high and low for one? Sometimes you just have to face reality!"
Whether Terry checked high and low or not, I was hoping it could be made in the USA. I was also hoping the blocks would have gotten here in time to build an engine for my car. However, the reality was that I had the shop build up an original block because the new engines were not ready yet.
I wish Terry Burtz and his team all the best, I really do. I wish I could build one of his new engines but I would need to sell my current engine to even have a chance of affording the new build. And I still wish it was made here in the USA.
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Old 03-10-2021, 11:30 AM   #255
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Apparently Tod seems to be able to line up foundries, but not for the quantities Terry is going for. Anyone know what Tod gets for his blocks?
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Old 03-10-2021, 02:39 PM   #256
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Apparently Tod seems to be able to line up foundries, but not for the quantities Terry is going for. Anyone know what Tod gets for his blocks?
Russ,

I spoke to Tod and he did not have a precise price only a ball park figure. This may be due to the different quantities he orders in each run plus the foundry he uses and other factors.

I’m not sure you can compare the two products. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand his is a bare block that has to be machined and you will need everything to assemble an engine.

The final cost could be very close between the two, both probably cost about the same as rebuilding an existing block. The only advantage probably comes down to whether you want an engine with an old block vs. a more reliable new block.

David Serrano
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Old 03-19-2021, 03:33 PM   #257
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Mr Burtz,
WOW!
Just picked up my Burtz BLOCK/CRANK and RODS !
They are shipped in great wooden custom crates !!
Great JOB to Terry, John Lampl and crew !!

Last edited by hardtimes; 03-19-2021 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Vvvvvv
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Old 03-19-2021, 05:19 PM   #258
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Arnold, you might try summit, Hayden just got enough bearings for the 6 engines.shipped straight to he door, I just got a new 4in crank for the 33 shipped from Jegs took 1-1/2 weeks straight to the door.
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Old 03-19-2021, 05:35 PM   #259
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Arnold, you might try summit, Hayden just got enough bearings for the 6 engines.shipped straight to he door, I just got a new 4in crank for the 33 shipped from Jegs took 1-1/2 weeks straight to the door.
Lawrie
Lawrie, I am being told time and time again that things are in such a mess in the US that getting anything out is nigh on impossible. (I am still waiting for a parcel sent in July last year.) The usual reason given for the situation is COVID and their lack of a response. I am at the point where I'll hold off on everything for a while and hope the ship steadies soon.
I hope they get their act together soon or they might find they can't.

For any of our American friends who might not like the above, facts are facts and don't take sides. While you may not notice from within the country, from outside, we can see what's happening - and it's not restricted to just the US. That's not top say everything is just peachy here either!
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Old 03-19-2021, 06:00 PM   #260
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Hey Mr Burtz,
WOW!
Just picked up my Burtz BLOCK/CRANK and RODS !
They are shipped in great wooden custom crates !!
Great JOB to Terry, John Lampl and crew !!
Great to hear! Canít wait to see them here in Canada! Very encouraging!
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