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Old 09-27-2011, 05:55 PM   #41
1931 flamingo
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

The water flows out of the head, down tru the radiator and back to the block.....
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:07 PM   #42
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I got that but in that case why isn't the water at the top of the inlet hose closer in temps to the bottom of the radiator?
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:22 PM   #43
Bob C
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

The inlet is on the side the block, I would think it would be
close to the bottom tank temp.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:27 PM   #44
Ron in Quincy
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

For 30 years, when rebuilding my waterpumps, I drill a 3/16" hole in each impeller; this slows down the water entering the top of the radiator; it also stops cavatation which will cause heating.

A good test of your cooling system is to remove the fan belt and drive just letting the air moving thru the radiator do the cooling. Broke a fan belt many years ago and drove home 60 miles; as long as I was moving the A ran just as cool as it did with the pump working.

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Old 09-27-2011, 06:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Thremosiphon, Model T's used it since 1908 and they had no pump, but you
know that Ron.

Dudley
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:16 PM   #46
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Tincup, I'm unclear about your temp measurements. What spot in the system do you mean by "inlet neck"? Inlet to the radiator? Inlet to the block? Thanks.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:30 PM   #47
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I am running a Walker 3 13/16 thick Rad, a Lion head, a V/8 Water pump (no Fan) in St Thomas and I can't get the gauge to move unless I'm in Traffic. I installed an electric fan (just in case) with the new rad but its never been used, NEVER. The B engine runs well and climbs the mountain roads and she has never run hot since Walker's been on the job.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:48 PM   #48
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I've been following this thread and it seems to me that the problem is not the timing, the radiator, and probably not the water pump either. I suspect some obstruction in the block or head, possibly an incorrect head gasket or just crud accumulated in the water jackets. Has your engine been flushed or was it hot tanked when it was rebuilt?
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:13 PM   #49
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by TinCup View Post
When I talked to the folks at Brassworks they insisted that 3 cores weren't necessary. That their 2 core design was so much more efficent that the 3rd core wasn't necessary. I am running a 6 fin 2 row Brassworks now and it's not enough in these temps. Whether a 10 fin would be better I can not say. I either have to bite the bullet and purchase a 3 row or see if I can borrow one from one of our local club members to see it if better cools.
Really …I said that?
I rarely make categorical statements about heat exchange theory so I am surprised to find myself quoted. Unfortunately heat exchange theory is a little more complicated than that and you would have to know far more variables to compare two cores e.g. tube shape and interior surface area, tube wall thickness, fin surface, fin thickness, fin depth etc. I would recommend Fundamentals of Heat Exchange Design 2003 by Shah and Sekulic as a primer.

I will not review other radiators available but can compare some elements of Ford’s design to our core design.

Tube Shape & Design

Flattening a round tube into an ellipse forces more coolant to touch the wall than the center and that helps the heat (electrons) move from heat source(coolant) to heat sink (air). This is why Ford changed from inline round tubes in 28-29 to offset ovals in 1930-31. Today, we use highly elliptical tubes because they cool better due to their shape. If you use Ramanujan’s formula our flat tube has a 38% greater circumference of the perimeter of Ford’s 30-31 oval. Compare a 28-29 Ford round tube interior wall surface area to our flat tube and we have 2.93xs more. This improved contact of coolant-to-wall and wall-to-fin is where the heat exchange happens.

Tube Layout and Fin Surface

Our flat tubes have a staggered array to disrupt the air horizontally and fin surface disruptions occur between the tubes through embossing louvers in the copper. Ford began dimpling fins for the same reason in 1930 to reduce the impact from laminar air flow theory (the cushion of hot air that cool air rides on).

Volume & Flow

The aggregate coolant volume held by our 30-31 core is 5.12 oz greater than Ford’s design and 3.84 oz less in the 28-29. Tanks inlets and outlets capacity is the same.

Surface Area

Though we make 6 fin per inch 30-31 and round tube 28-29, most Model A radiators we sell are 10 fin per inch. It has 40% more surface area than Ford’s design and that is probably the greatest benefit to cooling.

Fin Depth

Henry Ford’s radiator is 1.875”thick and the tube size and center-to-center layout we use yields a 1.8125” thick core.

Our most common 10 fin per inch radiator design uses a more expensive tube, cost more in labor and uses more copper than Ford and other alternatives and yes our radiator cost $10-45 more than the other alternatives.

If forum readers have questions about our cores or radiators please visit our website. We add to it when people ask questions. You can also contact me directly.

Last edited by The Brassworks; 09-27-2011 at 09:19 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by 700rpm View Post
I've been following this thread and it seems to me that the problem is not the timing, the radiator, and probably not the water pump either. I suspect some obstruction in the block or head, possibly an incorrect head gasket or just crud accumulated in the water jackets. Has your engine been flushed or was it hot tanked when it was rebuilt?
I just flushed the block 2 weeks ago. I filled it with muratic acid and let is set for 24 hours. I then drained it and flushed it several times with water.

I have a thermostat that was given by someone in the club to slow down the flow back to the radiator. If that doesn't show some improvement then the head comes off and I will take a top down approach.
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:27 PM   #51
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by Pilotdave View Post
Tincup, I'm unclear about your temp measurements. What spot in the system do you mean by "inlet neck"? Inlet to the radiator? Inlet to the block? Thanks.
Using a laser temp gauge I was curious as to temps on each cylinder looking for a hot spot. I aimed it at the bottom hose just where it connects to the water pipe. It read about 150 degrees. When I pointed it directly at the inlet neck on the side of the motor it read almost 185 degrees. I would have expected it to be closer to the 150 at the bottom of the radiator.
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:06 PM   #52
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Hey Tincup, is the radiator you are having issues with a Brassworks unit, or no?
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:26 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Quote:
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I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy
Tubes and fins are equal. With two rows of tubes, and put on as many fins that are practical is all you can do at that point, then add a set of tubes, and so on. any time I have to replace a Radiator in anything, I get the most tubes, and fins as possible, that will fit the hole it is going in. That is any engine, years ago, I wasted a lot of money trying to get by cheap, and that is always the most expensive. also as the boys said, it could be the timing, as a Hi Comp. head, is different. Herm.
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:41 PM   #54
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

It is a dimpled 6 fin 2 core Brassworks radiator. It was given to me by a friend who replaced it with a Brassworks pressurized unit. It was on the car when it was purchased and was presented as brand new.
Quote:
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Hey Tincup, is the radiator you are having issues with a Brassworks unit, or no?
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:58 PM   #55
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

have you checked for air leaks in the fuel system?..fwiw,jm
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:28 PM   #56
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Yes we did the starter fluid test last week. We got the great heads together, mine wasn't in the group, and since the radiator is dropping the temps almost 50 degrees top to bottom and their is no loss of water that the water pump may not be pushing enough water thru the system which would cause the overheating at higher speeds. I am building a new water pump this afternoon and am going to switch it out tomorrow.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:39 PM   #57
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:57 PM   #58
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place
I doubt that makes a significant difference. The press fit should not alter heat transfer enough to matter. I have heard of thin walls in bored engines having cooling problems due to thin cylinder walls. Not Model a's though.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:30 PM   #59
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place
Not true. Just as running a .125 overbore will overheat, that's not true either. If you ever bore a Model A through the wall into the water jacket you will have to bore over .300 radius. I have bored a cylinder .250 and still the cylinder was not compromised.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:37 PM   #60
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Just to add to the list of possibilities, if the engine has been sleeved it will run hotter. Engines that have been sleeved can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same because the sleeve isn't part of the engine block. but is pressed into place
The motor is bored 80 over but not sleeved.
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