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Old 01-11-2019, 03:34 PM   #1
406CID
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Lightbulb LED Headlights

Logo Lites now sells bright white LED Headlights for Model T, A, and early B Fords. They are as bright as a modern halogen, but pull less current than the 32/50 CP bulb. They focus like the original bulb and fit in the original type socket.


There is a video here: https://youtu.be/FA_9u2kWMNk


More info and details here: http://www.logolites.com/products/led-headlights/


-Kyle
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Is this your company? That is a pretty convincing video but I would love to see a picture of the beam pattern against a wall at the distance specified in the service bulletins for focusing headlights. I saw the one picture against the garage door but it's hard to tell that close.

I really don't want to blind oncoming drivers as I hate when it's done to me.

Correctly focusable LED headlights are very exciting. Looking forward to hearing more about this.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
Is this your company? That is a pretty convincing video but I would love to see a picture of the beam pattern against a wall at the distance specified in the service bulletins for focusing headlights. I saw the one picture against the garage door but it's hard to tell that close.

I really don't want to blind oncoming drivers as I hate when it's done to me.

Correctly focusable LED headlights are very exciting. Looking forward to hearing more about this.
Not my company, but I do work for Logo Lites.


The LED emitters were painstakingly designed to be in the exact same location as the two incandescent filament in the original bulb. Moving the LED bulb in and out has the exact same effect as they do on an incandescent since they emit from the same location.


I don't have the exact proper setup to do the Ford prescribed focusing, but will see what I can do to show the focused output this weekend.


Keep in mind, with a correctly focused factory reflector and an original 21/21 CP bulb, if you could take those bulbs up to a few thousand CP without changing anything else, your eye would see a slightly different pattern.


Also, the Logo Lites LED Headlight bulb puts out the same lumens as other DOT approved modern halogens.



-Kyle
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
Not my company, but I do work for Logo Lites.

-Kyle
Where can you purchase them and what is the price?
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Where can you purchase them and what is the price?
On the website his link goes to there is a place to buy them and they are $30 each.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
Not my company, but I do work for Logo Lites.


The LED emitters were painstakingly designed to be in the exact same location as the two incandescent filament in the original bulb. Moving the LED bulb in and out has the exact same effect as they do on an incandescent since they emit from the same location.


I don't have the exact proper setup to do the Ford prescribed focusing, but will see what I can do to show the focused output this weekend.


Keep in mind, with a correctly focused factory reflector and an original 21/21 CP bulb, if you could take those bulbs up to a few thousand CP without changing anything else, your eye would see a slightly different pattern.


Also, the Logo Lites LED Headlight bulb puts out the same lumens as other DOT approved modern halogens.



-Kyle
While Iím sure it wonít be perfectly the same the photo attached shows what the beam pattern should look like at 25 feet. For the price I think itís probably worth it for me to buy a pair and do some testing of my own.
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File Type: jpg 5BE0DFCB-D15C-4AE6-8292-01D70D8BAB89.jpg (24.9 KB, 127 views)
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
Not my company, but I do work for Logo Lites.


The LED emitters were painstakingly designed to be in the exact same location as the two incandescent filament in the original bulb. Moving the LED bulb in and out has the exact same effect as they do on an incandescent since they emit from the same location.


I don't have the exact proper setup to do the Ford prescribed focusing, but will see what I can do to show the focused output this weekend.


Keep in mind, with a correctly focused factory reflector and an original 21/21 CP bulb, if you could take those bulbs up to a few thousand CP without changing anything else, your eye would see a slightly different pattern.


Also, the Logo Lites LED Headlight bulb puts out the same lumens as other DOT approved modern halogens.



-Kyle
If the company has test data on lighting pattern and how to properly adjust the focus of this LED, it would be good to share! If the company does not have this data, it should be developed. With a good silvered reflector, and proper focussing and assuring legal brightness is not exceeded and at about $30.00 a bulb, these LED's are hands down a good choice for night driving. Let us know!
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Folks keep asking about focus, so I got Squeaky Betsy out in the cold misty rain for a quick demo tonight. Her headlights are not aligned correctly, so please don't beat me over the head about that. Hopefully the short video demonstrates the fact that the LED bulbs are focusable.

https://youtu.be/3rIEO9QFRQE

-Kyle
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
Folks keep asking about focus, so I got Squeaky Betsy out in the cold misty rain for a quick demo tonight. Her headlights are not aligned correctly, so please don't beat me over the head about that. Hopefully the short video demonstrates the fact that the LED bulbs are focusable.

https://youtu.be/3rIEO9QFRQE

-Kyle
Thanks for the video, Kyle, it's informative.

I see two minor problems with this bulb, perhaps one major:

1. The light source(s) are spread out on both sides of the centered tongue, which means there's no way to focus into a tight spot of light like could be done with a filament bulb with the lens removed. However, a reasonable focus should be possible by going for the smallest, brightest spot on the far wall (with lens installed). I suspect this would be more difficult than with standard bulbs.

2. Your vid shows the beam lowering as you adjust the focus screw in your Twolite lamps, which is caused by the 1/16" offset of the socket sleeve in the reflectors. Because both sides of the tongue have to be lit for high beam, the overall light source is 1/16" above where it should be. This is not terrible, so long as you readjust the beam height after focusing.

3. Despite the claims, I don't believe these bulbs are compatible with vehicles manufactured before March 1929. FSB p.573 lists the authorized bulbs available at the time, and clearly states that fact. Fig.738, p.362 shows an H-type lamp with a later reflector installed, and illustrates the reason why - the socket contacts are vertical.
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:41 AM   #10
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
Is this your company? That is a pretty convincing video but I would love to see a picture of the beam pattern against a wall at the distance specified in the service bulletins for focusing headlights. I saw the one picture against the garage door but it's hard to tell that close.

I really don't want to blind oncoming drivers as I hate when it's done to me.

Correctly focusable LED headlights are very exciting. Looking forward to hearing more about this.
I bought a pair to test out and review for our (Fairfield County A's) newsletter. I'll share my results when I test them, but that won't be for a while. It is TOO COLD to do now!!
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Reasonably priced also ! ! !
Paul in CT
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Despite the video and their declarations they do not focus the correct beam pattern.

The off-axis output is extremely evident if a luminary device, in this case the headlamp assembly looks extremely bright from above and to the side, just as shown in their video.

If you don't mind blinding oncoming traffic with a D.O.T. illegal beam pattern then buy!
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Lumens comparisons mean nothing if the output goes in the wrong direction.

The holy grail for any aftermarket headlamp is D.O.T. approval of the beam pattern. So far there are many claims but no actual approvals for any aftermarket emitter in a Ford spec parabolic reflector behind a McKee patent spec "Twolite" lens.

When that occurs as well as product that has both a realistic color temperature in the 3400-4300K range that matches well with human spectral response at night, combined with a true calculated color rendering index not less than 85 we will have a winner.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: LED Headlights

We first built these with 4300K and, although brighter, they looked just as bad as the original bulbs. Regarding D.O.T. approval, I like what Snyder's says on their website:
Quote:
When your Model T or Model A was delivered the headlight bulbs were 21-21 cp. If you wanted a brighter light you used the 21-32 but kept a lookout for the cops because those bright bulbs were illegal. Now we want as bright a light as we can get and use the 32-32 or 32-50.

Nobody seems to sell the D.O.T. approved, factory specified 21-21 bulbs anymore, and I for one, would not want them.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: LED Headlights

How is "high beam" and "low beam" handled with these lights?

The photos online seem to show 8 LED elements on one side, perhaps both sides (hard to tell from the photos). Are they wired such that all 16 LEDs come on for High and only the upper 8 come on for Low? Something needs to dip the beam down when on Low.

.
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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How is "high beam" and "low beam" handled with these lights?

The photos online seem to show 8 LED elements on one side, perhaps both sides (hard to tell from the photos). Are they wired such that all 16 LEDs come on for High and only the upper 8 come on for Low? Something needs to dip the beam down when on Low.
I was concerned about this early in the design too. It was pointed out to me that the 21/21 - 32/50 bulbs emit like an isotropic emitter (light in all directions). It is brighter up and down than side to side, but light is emitted in all directions from the original bulbs. This means on your incandescents and original reflectors, light goes down to the bottom of the parabolic reflector and reflects up somewhat. When you add the high beam, you simply add more light as the two filaments emit from the same location (not two very different locations like a modern day halogen). Most of the bulbs investigated even had a common point on one side, so the filaments were colocated.

The LED headlight was painstakingly designed to emulate what is available for us to use as a bulb now (except brighter and whiter). So, like the bulb, all 16 emitters are active at the same time, in the same place as the filaments. When you switch from low to high, it goes from reduced output to maximum output to emulate the incandescent bulb.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #17
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I was concerned about this early in the design too. It was pointed out to me that the 21/21 - 32/50 bulbs emit like an isotropic emitter (light in all directions). It is brighter up and down than side to side, but light is emitted in all directions from the original bulbs. This means on your incandescents and original reflectors, light goes down to the bottom of the parabolic reflector and reflects up somewhat. When you add the high beam, you simply add more light as the two filaments emit from the same location (not two very different locations like a modern day halogen). Most of the bulbs investigated even had a common point on one side, so the filaments were colocated.
I'm sorry, but the above is not true for an original Model A Two-Light headlight reflector and original bulb. You need to do some more research on original bulbs and reflectors, not aftermarket replacement junk that was produced in the '50s and '60s.

Yes, the light is emitted from each filament in all directions. It approximates a point source. That is how a parabolic reflector works. No, a Model A High beam does not have both filaments lit to "add more light from the same location". It is one or the other filament (High or Low), not both.

On an original headlight assembly, when focussed, the High beam filament is exactly centered at the focal point of the parabolic reflector. The placement of the bulb socket is NOT exactly on the center axis; it is a bit high of center. But the High beam filament is also off center (low) inside the bulb by the same amount. So this places the High beam filament exactly on the center line axis of the reflector. You use the focus adjusting screw to move the filament along this axis until you exactly hit the focal point.

Then you adjust the headlight bucket itself to aim this beam straight out from the car (on a wall 25 feet from the headlights). When the High beam is aimed in this manner, the Low beam is automatically correct, by design.

That's because the Low beam filament, inside the original Model A 20 cp/20 cp bulb, is a separate filament that is higher than the High beam filament inside the bulb. When it lights, because it is now high to the center line and focal point of the reflector, the beam is slightly dipped down at the road (not straight out into the other driver's eyes).

This is all well documented in original drawings that you can get from the Benson Ford archives.

Note, the above description does not apply to the 1928 and early 1929 headlights, with the fluted lenses. They only had 20 cp Driving lights (similar to High beams) and 3 cp parking lights in the headlight buckets. They did not have a bright beam that was aimed down at the road. They did not have the lens of the later Model A; their headlight lenses looked exactly like the fluted Model T lenses.

It sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board because this design is based on faulty assumptions and measurements. Otherwise oncoming drivers will be blinded by the light put out.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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That's because the Low beam filament, inside the original Model A 20 cp/20 cp bulb, is a separate filament that is higher than the High beam filament inside the bulb. When it lights, because it is now high to the center line and focal point of the reflector, the beam is slightly dipped down at the road (not straight out into the other driver's eyes).
Jim, Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

And thanks for pointing out that the low bean filament is the upper one in the bulb and the high beam is the lower one. 'Some' people on the Ford Barn think it is the other way and there was quite a discussion about it a while back.

Oh, and nice hat...
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:23 AM   #19
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I was concerned about this early in the design too. It was pointed out to me that the 21/21 - 32/50 bulbs emit like an isotropic emitter (light in all directions). It is brighter up and down than side to side, but light is emitted in all directions from the original bulbs. This means on your incandescents and original reflectors, light goes down to the bottom of the parabolic reflector and reflects up somewhat. When you add the high beam, you simply add more light as the two filaments emit from the same location (not two very different locations like a modern day halogen). Most of the bulbs investigated even had a common point on one side, so the filaments were colocated.

The LED headlight was painstakingly designed to emulate what is available for us to use as a bulb now (except brighter and whiter). So, like the bulb, all 16 emitters are active at the same time, in the same place as the filaments. When you switch from low to high, it goes from reduced output to maximum output to emulate the incandescent bulb.

If these LEDs work as described then it sounds to me that there is no shift in the beam to light up further down the road like "real high beams".


Sounds like all that happens is that the "lower beam" just gets brighter which might work for a car that never goes faster than 40 MPH.

The video shows that this is what happens with the LED bulbs installed there is no shift of the beam, it just gets brighter.


But then what is the point or need for high beams?

Last edited by Benson; 01-27-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: LED Headlights

The bottom line for me; I am lot more comfortable driving at night with my LED head lights.
The original bulbs with Brattons new reflectors were still scary out there with all of the bright DOT approved headlights.
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