59A/B Stud Challenge

[flatheadmurre]

To me a normal 12.9 stud is made from machinable steel then carbon is added to the surface and hardened....welding is just fine but you end up with a mild steel bolt.
It´s not alloys that makes it hard to weld it´s high carbon contents.

[fordwife]

Never ever try to remove a broken stud with an ez out. It will break off in the block nearly every time and make matters worse.

[rockfla]

@ RONNIE
I am not a welding expert.....with that said my line of work is commercial/industrial fasteners.....I sell all types of steel, stainless steel, alloy, heat treated alloy and very specialized alloy fasteners ie Titanium, hastalloy, Inconel etc etc. etc. and my customer do many things with them....SO with that said....I called about 5 different customers and got 5 different responses......All I can tell you as to the best rod for the application is to check with your welding supply house and get their recommendation as to what number rod or wire would work best for the application......WITH THAT SAID @ FLATHEADDMURRE.....not sure where you get your info on 12.9 (Metric Grading) but 12.9 is basically A574 Alloy material which is anywhere from about 0.20 to 0.50 carbon and has manganese, silicon and chromium as its other components and is a through hardened material, NOT a surface hardened material.....Other alloys (For strength and or heat resistance) could have vanadium, titanium and nickel as part of the chemical make up THUS welding AGAIN becomes difficult IF you don't know what you are doing.....most likely with "Stud/bolt" problem from this thread...it was an alloy material and somewhat hardened material and with that these types of alloys are best heated and maintained at a high temperature before you start the welding process. Welding cold and concentrating the weld also can change the physical properties of the fastener.....again best to know what you are dealing with before you start welding. It's a complicated issue to get right!!!!

[drolston]

Let me wrap this up by noting other threads touting the weld-a-washer-and-nut approach as the sure fire method of stud extraction should be linked to this thread. They made it sound routine, and I went out and bought a fairly expensive (for me) MIG Welder. After much experimentation with welding parameters and six failed attempts to get a solid weld to one of the seven broken studs, it is quite obvious that this is not a practical approach for a shade-tree mechanic like me.

It is now off to the machine shop. I received several tips on local shops that may have enough flathead experience to be trusted with this work. Thanks to all for your input.

[39topless]

You have made a very good decision. There are some things better left to the professionals.

[Ronnie]

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Originally Posted by drolston

Let me wrap this up by noting other threads touting the weld-a-washer-and-nut approach as the sure fire method of stud extraction should be linked to this thread. They made it sound routine, and I went out and bought a fairly expensive (for me) MIG Welder. After much experimentation with welding parameters and six failed attempts to get a solid weld to one of the seven broken studs, it is quite obvious that this is not a practical approach for a shade-tree mechanic like me.

It is now off to the machine shop. I received several tips on local shops that may have enough flathead experience to be trusted with this work. Thanks to all for your input.

Wise decision to get a shop to remove the broken item,any shop should be ok,as broken bolts on engines are very common indeed.

R

[jiw1]

mrtexas or anybody else know the name and or # and manufacture of this special stick welding rod. many thanks to all of you again for all information,john

[rockfla]

SOMETIIMES......If you can order a few different diameters of Left hand twist drill bits to drill the studs/bolts with the tension of drilling counter clockwise will put enough force on the stud (along with heat from the drilling process) to break it loose. I have also found on a few occasions that (depending on the drill diameter) a matching left hand threaded tap (once the pilot hole is drilled) can also put enough force on it to break it loose but with both these approaches along with easy outs...if they break your pretty well toast. I have invested in a set of "Safe Drillers" drill bits for the latter occasion OR for the pasted along problem to me!!!!!

[Mart]

Here is the thread I started when going through this pain

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123671

I've never owned an ez out so haven't had to put up with dealing with a broken one. I have used a torx bit successfully as an ez out, but only a couple of times, but never on anything that broke while trying to remove it. Once was a clutch cover bolt that snapped as it was being tightened, the other was a brass pipe fitting where the piece had snapped off leaving just the tapered plug part in place.

Mart.

[flatheadmurre]

@Rockfla not wanting to start a fight here...but as you know selling fasteners a bolt is never specified by its material...its a tension and break strenght that makes it a sertain grade.
I make studs using rolling dies in my CNC lathe and we use the most machineable steel we can to make production work best then add carbon and heat treat it for strenght.
And the material is an alloy but not a high strenght toolsteel or something like that.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by fordwife

Never ever try to remove a broken stud with an ez out. It will break off in the block nearly every time and make matters worse.

EXACTLY... If the stud was stuck enough to break... trying to turn it with an EZ-Out isn't going to work. Those are for stuff that isn't rusted in place.

Heating the stud cherry red will break the rust bonds, and allow the stud to be backed out. Just get it HOT... and it will generally back out. HOT, as in orange/cherry red!!! A basic propane torch will NOT do the job!

Welding a nut to the broken stud can accomplish this task. The heat from welding breaks these bonds, then the nut allows it to be backed out. When trying to do this, crank the welder up HOT, and try to put a lot of heat into it. Since a TIG isn't piling up a bunch of added metal like a MIG would, it allows you more time to put HEAT into the stud... making it more effective.

Stuff to know BEFORE trying to remove the studs:

If you have studs that need removed... and the head is off where you can get to the stud/block interface... use an oxy-acetylene torch to heat the base of the stud RED HOT... BEFORE trying to remove it. 99.9% of them WILL easily back out without breaking.

If you break one off flush with the deck... Use the torch to heat the stud up RED HOT... BEFORE trying to weld to it with a MIG. This will break the rust bonds AND make it easier to weld to. The heat will also 'crutch' the welder, if you do it while it's still hot, as it won't heat sink as bad. A propane torch can even help with this.

If you have a TIG to weld the nut with, you can probably skip the torch step, as it can add enough heat to break the rust bonds all by itself.

Good Luck!

[rockfla]

@ FLATHEDMURRE
Not to continue (Or fight) but as here in the US and I'm sure with metric standards, you are SOMEWHAT correct with respect to low carbon and medium carbon steel fasteners (here in the US) in that MOST manufactures only supply torque, shear and tensile values for said bolts, as you move more into Grade 8- Alloy Material, (OR your 10.9) and Alloy Socket products (Which is your 12.9 equivalent) ASTM is very specific on the type Alloy material to be used in order to classify it as either grade 8 or to be classified for the US Alloy (ASTM A574 alloy) socket head, flat head socket, button head socket or socket set screws. Any reputable supplier of the "higher" grade material, structural grades etc etc is required to have a sample of every lot purchased tested by an independent lab to verify ASTM spec and required to offer mill test reports (which contain chemical and physical info) and certification of compliance (TO ASTM spec) when requested. I'm not 100% certain of the heat treating, quenching and tempering of ASTM A574 before the manufacturing of the socket products (or your 12.9) begins nor the requenching, tempering and stress relieving afterward but I'm sure all of it does "Work Harden" the product throughout the process as well as the process itself.