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Old 01-05-2020, 04:42 PM   #21
supereal
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Setting points on a Sun machine does not require that a coil be used. The procedure is to first be sure the machine is calibrated, then block one set of points as the distributor is run, set the unblocked points, then unblock the points and set the dwell by the other point set to show the combination dwell. At our shop we calibrate lots of old Ford distributors on our Sun machines. The strobe feature is very useful to check for problems with shaft wear or other signs of instability such as point bounce due to weak point set springs. Checking he advance is useful to detect problems with the weight springs.
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Supereal, a short while ago you posted the following, and I'm not sure what you meant:

"The timing is preset by the coupling of the distributor to the camshaft by the offset that fits between the distributor and the cam, and is not adjustable."

Exactly how do you set the initial advance when running distributors on your Sun tester? Please explain the step-by-step procedure for obtaining the required 4 degree initial advance if timing is not adjustable.

You guys that have been using Sun machines for years must have some interesting techniques ... like calibrating the tach in the early days. How was that done?
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:54 PM   #23
35fordtn
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

This week as time permits I’ll find a extra set of hands and shoot a video of my equipment and how I set them up. I’ll even use a helmet distributor to show how attaching the coil does indeed with zero doubt affect dwell as I know I have four helmet type distributors lined up for next Friday.. Maybe I’m doing it all wrong?

I find it interesting how technical we get on these simple things when the majority of the world is using feeler gauges. Just shows how much we all care for perfection!
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Old 01-06-2020, 11:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

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Originally Posted by 35fordtn View Post
Maybe Iím doing it all wrong?

I find it interesting how technical we get on these simple things when the majority of the world is using feeler gauges. Just shows how much we all care for perfection!
Don't think you are doing it wrong. I just don't think it makes any difference. At least on mine it doesn't matter.
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Old 01-06-2020, 06:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

[QUOTE=supereal;1838296]Setting points on a Sun machine does not require that a coil be used.

Couldn't agree more, at least on the helmet.
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Old 01-07-2020, 10:02 AM   #26
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

philipswanson, I'm trying to find out how different guys set the initial timing advance when using their Sun machines. I've asked supereal and he has yet to respond.

Hopefully, since you are 504 knowledgeable, you can explain how you set your distributors so that they have the required 4 degrees advance.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:12 AM   #27
Seth Swoboda
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

I don't know much about how to test a distributor on a sun machine. However, I'll bet my V8 collection I'm having 35fordtn set my distributors up first.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:19 AM   #28
Terranova
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

I’m excited about Mike making a video or two!
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:30 AM   #29
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Hoop, My Sun Master machine has an adjustable calibration mark I set the moveable ring to zero/360 on this and after setting the dwell, with the machine turning the shaft slowly, not fast enough to activate the weights set the initial degrees with the screw that moves the floor plate. At least that has worked for me.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:34 AM   #30
35fordtn
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Duece_roadster I used to do that exact same method and set my machine arrow to match my KRW fixture on the first time, however..... temperature affect my machine and the same distributor tested days apart changed a degree or so... my machine has the LED kit so maybe that’s why? I trust my KRW fixture as I know it will always be spot on..

Last edited by 35fordtn; 01-07-2020 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:34 AM   #31
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
philipswanson, I'm trying to find out how different guys set the initial timing advance when using their Sun machines. I've asked supereal and he has yet to respond.

Hopefully, since you are 504 knowledgeable, you can explain how you set your distributors so that they have the required 4 degrees advance.
Yes, I have a nice 504 and a couple of 1940 helmets but I wouldn't call myself all that knowledgeable. I have Bubba's information sheet and have seen the video on U tube and have done both my distributors and my 40 wagon runs fine. But that's it.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:35 AM   #32
35fordtn
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

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Originally Posted by philipswanson View Post
Yes, I have a nice 504 and a couple of 1940 helmets but I wouldn't call myself all that knowledgeable. I have Bubba's information sheet and have seen the video on U tube and have done both my distributors and my 40 wagon runs fine. But that's it.
So how do you set initial timing as hoop asked? I haven’t seen u tube videos on them so I’m curious...

PS had a 11a converted early distributor on the machine today for a vendor. For craps I pulled the coil plate off and it changed the dwell .8 degrees
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

35fordtn, my machine has no LED kit so maybe there is a slight lag due to the flash tube. That wouldn't surprise me.
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:26 PM   #34
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce_roadster View Post
Hoop, My Sun Master machine has an adjustable calibration mark I set the moveable ring to zero/360 on this and after setting the dwell, with the machine turning the shaft slowly, not fast enough to activate the weights set the initial degrees with the screw that moves the floor plate. At least that has worked for me.
That is the correct method for initial timing, 2 degrees. Then the total advance can be checked by noting the rpm at which the specified advance is achieved. This is done with the vacuum brake removed. The vacuum brake is then adjusted to 7 degrees at 1000 rpm with 1.6 inches of vacuum.This is for the 11a.
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:51 PM   #35
deuce_roadster
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

marko39, Yes, removing the vacuum brake piston is step one when working with a machine like Sun, or others like an Allen that spins the distributor, when working on an old Ford distributor.
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Old 01-07-2020, 04:11 PM   #36
supereal
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

The initial timing is, in fact, determined by the offset coupling to the camshaft. The advance affects timing, of course, via the weights on the point plate. We adjust that on the Sun machine by controlling the speed of the machine and watching the strobe wheel. That is why old Fords don't have timing marks on the crank pulley. The system was designed to eliminate timing adjustment on the early models for convenience before distributor machines were widely available. Hope that answers the question.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:05 PM   #37
philipswanson
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35fordtn View Post
So how do you set initial timing as hoop asked? I havenít seen u tube videos on them so Iím curious...

For craps I pulled the coil plate off and it changed the dwell .8 degrees
Can you reset the dwell by .8 degrees anyway?
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:10 PM   #38
35fordtn
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by philipswanson View Post
Can you reset the dwell by .8 degrees anyway?
Not understanding your question?

If that was supposed to read "how can you read dwell by .8 anyways", then the answer would be a digital dwell meter.. I did the same coil on/off test on another distributor today (a 68 series) and it made no difference on the digital dwell meter.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:20 PM   #39
35fordtn
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by supereal View Post
The system was designed to eliminate timing adjustment on the early models for convenience before distributor machines were widely available. Hope that answers the question.
Now you have me all confused if they eliminated timing adjustment, why do they have a initial timing adjuster? Are you setting the adjuster in the middle on all yours to set the initial timing, using a timing fixture, or... using a certain mark on your sun machine to set the initial timing?
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Old 01-07-2020, 06:22 PM   #40
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Default Re: Testing Helmet On Sun Machine

[QUOTE=35fordtn;1838814]So how do you set initial timing as hoop asked. (Quote).

I just set the timing tag on zero until after I get the dwell set, then advance it 3 notches.
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