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Old 11-15-2019, 02:31 PM   #1
Forddan
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Default I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Hi all

I wanted to share my happiness.

As you many have read, I had a couple of postings at the start of the summer season concerning Gear Oil and STP. After all the suggestions, I finally decided not to use STP for my gears. Instead I got Merola 1500W. Kind of similar in density as the STP, but a real oil, as many of you called the STP not an oil. :-)

Part of the discussion was that these high density oils will make shifting difficult in winter.

Well, "I am so happy" to report that after 3 days of night temperatures around 18F and daily temperatures around 35-45 F I was able to drive the car without double clutching.

This is my first year with a model A and as a newbie, double clutching learning curve was not fast. It improved when I moved from 600W to the 1500W. But it wasn't a WOW.

Today, at noon with 46F I started the car. Started right away after 3 weeks in the non-heated barn. Moving the Gears where harder than in summer. But not an issue at all. Took it out, let him warm a little and started my 10 + miles trip around the town.

I am....so happy... It was shifting like a charm. I did not have to do double clutching. From first to second was smooth as cutting butter with a knife. Same from 2nd to 3er. Moreover, I was able to do my firsts downshiftings without any grinding.

I can't be more happy.

Lesson learned : An oil like Molasse consistency worked marvels, at least for me. I wish I could keep this "low temp density " in summer. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything higher than the 1500W. But I am happy, very happy with my decision.

I hope this posting helps others, but, every car, and every driver is a different world.

Cheers to all and thank you very much for all the teaching !!!

Daniel
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Neat! Thank you for the report
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

im not finding the oil when trying to search. where do you get it?
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

I think he meant to type Meropa
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I think he meant to type Meropa
YES !!! I am so sorry. Is Meropa.
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike657894 View Post
im not finding the oil when trying to search. where do you get it?
Here you go:

https://www.restorationstuff.com/eco...oducts_id=1088
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Sounds like what I need for my Warford in the Model T. Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 11-16-2019, 09:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Lucas Oil Stabilizer stays thick in the summer.
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Chevron Meropa is an ISO-1500 grade which is equivalent to SAE-250 grade lubricant. This stuff has extreme pressure additives in it so it wouldn't be kind to any phosphor bronze bushings such as the reverse idler. Most old transmissions use the lubes with no EP additives like GL1. Restoration Supply touts that it is good with yellow metals but I wonder where that information came from. Chevron's info even states it has the heavy smell of EP additives.

There are other ISO 1500 lubricant available that have no additives.
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Old 11-16-2019, 12:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle View Post
Lucas Oil Stabilizer stays thick in the summer.
Well, being "synthetic" possibly the original synthetic oil, STP will be more "consistent" in its viscosity relative to temperature.

As to EP additives in STP, the modern oils are (added to). New old stock found on Ebay IS NOT.

So I picked up the equivalent of a tranny full.

But the 1500W oil is nice to know.

Joe
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Old 11-16-2019, 03:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Chevron Meropa is an ISO-1500 grade which is equivalent to SAE-250 grade lubricant. This stuff has extreme pressure additives in it so it wouldn't be kind to any phosphor bronze bushings such as the reverse idler. Most old transmissions use the lubes with no EP additives like GL1. Restoration Supply touts that it is good with yellow metals but I wonder where that information came from. Chevron's info even states it has the heavy smell of EP additives.

There are other ISO 1500 lubricant available that have no additives.
Please, provide info of those others and link to vendors. Just remember not all of us can by per gallon.

Thank you !!!
Daniel
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Back, many years ago, I worked in a company named Sesco/Bay machine and we made vibration dampers for heliocopters. It was a simple device consisting of a " barrel " and a shaft with vanes on it. Much like a model A shock. We used in different models, a 1500 and a 2000 wgt oil. This oil was clear as water and poured alike cement. We had to fill them at night and let the bubbles float to the surface over night. Then refill them in the morning. I believe this was real 1500 weight oil and would cancel a lot of HP as the gears plowed through it. However, it would have done a great job of slowing the gears in the trans down and probably not leaked any of it out. Who makes it? It was a long time ago and I don't recall the refiner. But it is something to remember, that this stuff is made.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
....Restoration Supply touts that it is good with yellow metals but I wonder where that information came from. Chevron's info even states it has the heavy smell of EP additives.
CHEVRON Meropa info states that the copper corrosion test is 1B.

I searched online what 1B means. I found this video and pasted the below section:

https://youtu.be/WfDRmMXUTy4


....The technician will report the results as a number followed by a letter according to the ASTM ranges. These ranges include freshly polished, slightly tarnished (1a to 1b), moderately tarnished (2a to 2e), dark tarnish (3a to 3b), and corrosion (4a to 4c).

This test is often performed for automotive companies to determine how suitable a lubricant is for lubricating parts such as bearings that contain copper or copper alloys because corrosion can cause premature bearing failures. While this test does not measure the ability of the grease to inhibit copper corrosion caused by factors other than the grease itself nor does it measure the stability of the grease in the presence of copper, it does ensure that a grease will protect the metal surface it comes in contact with over time......

Link to Chevron Meropa info file:

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF

Could be, that Restoration Supplies states "Does not affect yellow metals " because the copper corrosion test is 1B on all of these Meropa gear oils ?

Daniel

Last edited by Forddan; 11-17-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

If you notice the description of Chevron Meropa, it is listed as an industrial gear lubricant and as such was not blended with automotive use in mind.

Lubriplate SPO gear lube is still available in SAE 250 and it is a straight mineral.
https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/...O-299/SPO-299/

The presence of sulfuric and phosphoric acid is always marked by the smell. If it is in low quantities such as GL3/4 then it would be considered mild EP and not extreme. Since it is industrial grade, it doesn't have to be rated for automotive use. The industrial EP ratings can be misleading when comparing them to the normal API automotive grading system. Any tarnish of copper is a sign of extreme EP and heat & moisture just make it worse. The stuff might work fine with no detrimental effects but it's good to know the risks. Modern industrial uses likely have no yellow metals to worry about. Most have huge ball or roller bearings. Phosphor bronze has copper but it also has tin and phosphorus so the copper test only tells part of the story.

https://www.nyelubricants.com/lubric...pper-corrosion


Older helicopters had hydraulic dampers but none do now days. I still work on the old Bell 47 helicopters and they used to have the who-die dampers for the stabilizer bar but they only used Mill-H-5606 hydraulic oil in those. They had so many problems with the stabilizer bars that most folks operating them install a N0 Bar kit and did away with them. It certainly cut down on maintenance times but it made the flight controls a lot more sensitive.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-17-2019 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Rotorwrench... thank you for your answer and teaching me.

If I understand correctly, the Lubriplate gear oil SAE250 will be of the same "Molasse Density Type" as the Meropa 1500W. Is this correct ?

Thanks
Daniel

Last edited by Forddan; 11-17-2019 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

It not ISO-1500 so it's not as viscous but it is ISO-1000 so it's still pretty thick stuff. Lincoln used to use SAE-250 for the gearbox & axle assemblies so it's not unheard of. You can run GL5 in the transmissions for a while without eating any bearings up but its the long game that can cause problems eventually. If the ISO-1500 is working then use it up unless you bought a 55 gallon drum of the stuff.

I am still using up and old pail of Texaco Thuban SAE-140 that I use for build up oil in aircraft engine overhauls and that stuff is pretty thick. It's definitely noticeably thicker than SAE-85W/140 multi vis that I use in the helicopter gearboxes. SAE-250 is too thick for my old Mercury overdrive transmissions. I use the Stay-Lube 85W/90 GL-4 for them. It's a mild EP but those transmissions have a one way sprag free wheel unit in them due to the overdrive. They can't take high EP at all. Sometimes I just use SAE-50 grade 100 aircraft motor oil in them but it has to be the oil with no TCP lycoming additive in it. The TCP is worse than the sulfur/phosphate EP additives in gear oil. SAE 50 motor oil is the same viscosity as SAE-90 gear lube since they are graded differently.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-18-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Forddan Im thinking of following your lead here. I have a few questions. Did you have good 600w from the suppliers before the 1500? I just put macs 600 in trans and rear. less than 100 miles yet. I can get some silent shifts if I hit my double shift well enough. In your original post you make it sound like your trans now shifts like a syncro unit because of this oil. Is it that good? Im leery as I put standard modern rear end oil in my axle when I got it and developed a slight low speed noise back there.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

I believe Macs 600w is just SAE140 gear oil. I have that and 600W from Brattons. The stuff from Brattons is darker, thicker and has no gear oil smell to it. I used the Macs in the rear end and switched to Brattons in the transmission, it shifts smoother now.
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

I have the stuff from Mike's in my tranny, diff, and steering column. Seems fine, silent shifts when I have the RPMs right and reasonably forgiving when I don't.
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Old 11-18-2019, 04:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I have the stuff from Mike's in my tranny, diff, and steering column. Seems fine, silent shifts when I have the RPMs right and reasonably forgiving when I don't.
Really? I tried the GL1500 in my trans and it was really hard to shift in the morning. And it doesn't get that cold it Southern California.

Once it warmed up it shifted OK but nothing spectacular. I went back to 600W.

I see no reason to put 1500W in the rear end or steering. I use Penrite in the steering box.
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Old 11-18-2019, 05:36 PM   #21
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

I've tried the vendors' 600 in the rear end which looks and feels like modern Chevron SAE 140 I have in a pail. Am now trying 1500w (modern non synthetic SAE 250) from Summit racing which doesn't foam as much as the 140. Non stock tranny so no 250wt. there.
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike657894 View Post
Forddan Im thinking of following your lead here. I have a few questions. Did you have good 600w from the suppliers before the 1500? I just put macs 600 in trans and rear. less than 100 miles yet. I can get some silent shifts if I hit my double shift well enough. In your original post you make it sound like your trans now shifts like a syncro unit because of this oil. Is it that good? Im leery as I put standard modern rear end oil in my axle when I got it and developed a slight low speed noise back there.
First, thank you all for your comments!!!

Mike659874. Let me clarify some points.

I am a newbie concerning Model A. This is my first season with one. So, I do not know yet if my issues shifting were due to my lack of experience or due to the gear oil.

Now, with that clarify I will answer your questions.

I tried 3 different 600W from Model A vendors. With all of them I was not able to shift without having some grinding. After reading many threads, I arrived to the conclusion that I will look to test a thicker gear oil. Could be it will help me on my learning curve. I thought about using STP. But many suggested not to use it and others to use it. At the end, because of the Zinc content and the yellow metals issue, I decided not to use it. If you search "gear oil" you will find many references to Meropa 680W as one of the modern gear oils with viscosity similar to the Henry Ford 600W. But I wanted something more like a Molasse ( like the STP). Then I found that Restoration Supplies was selling Meropa 1500W in small bottles with the legend "good for yellow metals ". My car is a January 1929 Tudor. It was fully restored and gear box done too, all in 2005. I do not know with certainty if I have yellow metals in my gear box. So I was afraid of using an oil that could bring future issues. Meropa 680W is widely used, based on my searches, and it has the same copper oxidation test of 1B, as the 1500W. Plus Restoration Supplies stated online "no issues with yellow metals:.

I ordered 2 bottles, change the oil and drove the car all Massachusetts summer with the 1500W. It wasn't a "WOW, what a change". But definitely I was shifting better. There was a difference for good.

The other big discussion was "in winter you will not be able to shift". Due to snow and salt I will not be driving my A in Winter. But I wanted to see what will be happening in November/December before the town spread salt in the streets.

My first test is related in my first posting. Temperatures are detailed. YES, sifting with the car cold, before starting the car felt harder, BUT the gears moved without any problem.

Started the car, waited a few minutes to warm the engine and when I shifted from first to 2nd..... WOW. It was smooth and no grinding at all. Same from 2nd to 3er. After 10+ miles the feeling was the same. Still I can feel that shifting was slower than in summer. Probably the gear oil, thicker due to the low temp. But it felt SO GOOD.

I got for the first time the "YES, I can do it without grinding". I did several double clutching, but they were unnecessary. I was trying all the options in my testing.

So this is my experience. I hope this helps.

Best Daniel
ps: all other places in my car have 600W from vendors

Last edited by Forddan; 11-18-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:56 AM   #23
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

This hub oil I bought at Rural King work great too , make trans smooth as butter.
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:40 PM   #24
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

What kind of tool are you using to get the thick oil in the tranny? I tried the rubber bulb but the thick oil causes the end to pop off.
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Old 11-23-2019, 01:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Quote:
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What kind of tool are you using to get the thick oil in the tranny? I tried the rubber bulb but the thick oil causes the end to pop off.
The 600W oil that is being sell by the Model A shops (also other oils), come in bottles with a tip that you can use to pour the thicker oil. I did a bigger cut to the bottle tip. Then by hand, lying over the floor, slowly poured the 1500W oil. When the oil started to drip I stopped, waited a minute and continued. There was a point that doesn't matter how much I waited the oil dripped. Gear box was filled.

I hope this helps.
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Old 11-23-2019, 01:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

Where does John Deere Gear Head 1200 "grease" fit into this discussion?
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Old 11-23-2019, 08:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

thanks. Good idea. I use a drip tray and old clothes. I'm hoping the tranny back end won't leack as much
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Old 11-23-2019, 08:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

I will give it a try. I saved the link. My car takes a methodical three count double clutch for smooth operation and sometimes seems even that isnt enough. So im up for some improvement.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:20 AM   #29
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

When I first started driving on the farm, my pop had a 1952 F3 with the 4-speed T8 transmission and 11-inch clutch. I was determined to shift that thing with minimal gear clash. I eventually did by carefully listening to engine rpm during shifting. It's an art to match engine rpm to output speed but a person can get a feel for it over time. Double clutching helps but I found that I really only had to do that during down shifting after you get good at anticipating proper engine rpms to output speeds.

The thicker oil helps the countershaft cluster gear to slow down more quickly when the clutch is disengaged. I use SAE 85W/90 GL4 in my 29 model A and have no problem shifting it. I avoid downshifting down to low gear since it is generally only needed when stopping the car. I'll get a click now and then but I don't always concentrate as well as I probably should. When you get used to a car, it starts to become second nature. The car seeps a bit but no worse than any of the other old fords I've had over the years. They like to mark their spot.
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Old 11-24-2019, 12:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: I am so happy......With my 1500W gear oil...

This covers it pretty well in my opinion. You can drive a vehicle that's hard for others to drive "UNTIL" they get used to it. You have to become intimate with whatever you are using to truly use it with no abuse. I drove a truck coast to coast back in the eigthies and had a WW2 vet as a partner for awhile. He was a super nice fellow and I wanted to impress him but also make his time in the sleeper as good as I could. I tried to not jerk any,, I shifted as smooth as I possibly could and I didn't slam on the brakes. The owner of the company told me the WW2 vet told him I was the smoothest driver he'd ever ridden with. . I never told him I was deliberately trying to be smooth. I could change gears without using a clutch at all, upshift and downshift. Don't take this as me bragging as I'm not. It was just effort and repetition. I tell people if you do something enough you get good at it unless you're lazy. I broke my right wrist one time and I'm right handed. Before long I was ok at wiping my butt left handed .

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When I first started driving on the farm, my pop had a 1952 F3 with the 4-speed T8 transmission and 11-inch clutch. I was determined to shift that thing with minimal gear clash. I eventually did by carefully listening to engine rpm during shifting. It's an art to match engine rpm to output speed but a person can get a feel for it over time. Double clutching helps but I found that I really only had to do that during down shifting after you get good at anticipating proper engine rpms to output speeds.

The thicker oil helps the countershaft cluster gear to slow down more quickly when the clutch is disengaged. I use SAE 85W/90 GL4 in my 29 model A and have no problem shifting it. I avoid downshifting down to low gear since it is generally only needed when stopping the car. I'll get a click now and then but I don't always concentrate as well as I probably should. When you get used to a car, it starts to become second nature. The car seeps a bit but no worse than any of the other old fords I've had over the years. They like to mark their spot.
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