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Old 09-12-2010, 07:58 AM   #1
Kevin in NJ
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Default NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

On Saturday I was at a small local show and talked to a guy with a T bucket pickup thing.

It was the basic 454 on a Model A frame with a later V8 front axle and some much newer rear axle. It had a T rad shell.

The guy had to send in pictures of the car when registering it. I am not sure if it was a renewal or what. He had owned the car for a while and he had QQ tags (the NJ historic tags) so I am pretty sure it was a renewal. The state wanted lots of pictures of the exterior from all angles, the interior and the engine.

He told me the pulled the title and they are forcing him to get a safety inspection. The state will issue a manufactured vehicle title and make the engine meet the 1974 emissions as the engine is a 1974 engine. They also made him put fenders on the car. I noticed he was driving with regular plates. He was still not 100% sure of what he had to meet to get the title.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:22 AM   #2
Mitch//pa
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

i know jersey just eliminated safety inspections for registerd vehicles. the emissions program stays in effect. maybe this is the after effects from that ?? its not getting any easier is it
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:49 AM   #3
Bruce Adams
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

Makes sense to me if someone buys a 2010 Brookfield "Model A" body and frame and adds a 1980s short block Chevy, there is no way in my mind that it should be subject to 1931 standards.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Any way the goverment can get more of yours they will go out of their way to upset your life to get it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

Getting out of Jersey 15 years aga was the best move I ever made!
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

No problem in Georgia - yet. I walked into my county tag office with a bill of sale and $20 and emerged with a regular automobile plate for a 1930 Tudor.

What about other states?

The Barn might be a good venue to compare notes nationwide with an eye to heading off incursions at an early stage.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:06 AM   #7
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

One of the hotrod sites has a wiki or faq on state tags. I lost the link a while ago and I should go find it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

Well here we go again. This is the perfect example for the need of S.E.M.A. Fordbarn, Ahooga, etc and a MARC/MAFCA merging. The more clout you have (lobbyists) the better chance of survival. We all laugh and think it won't happen. We are witnessing the last stronghold of America's love affair with the automobile. This is nothing new either. Back in about 71 or 72 at a ISCA show in Seattle a beautiful roadster was pulled right out of the show in the middle of the night by law enforcement for supposed stolen parts.. Know what your buying and document what you buy.

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Old 09-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

Amen Bob. It's one thing for the intramural sniping on sites like this such as "purist" vs hated hot rodder. But when it comes to gestapo minded politicians and their bureaucratic lackeys they don't know the difference, and further, don't care. An old car is an old car and you're all despicable polluters, liars, and socialital ne'r do wells as far as they're concerned. This kind of story is all about revenue, supposed lost tax revenue at least, for now. But the next time around it'll be environmental concerns, saftety concerns, energy concerns, or whatever other reason they'll dream up. On subjects like this some folks need to get their parochial heads out of their butts and remember as auto loving hobbyists we either stand together or fall prey to divide and conquer.

Stepping down now.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

Kevin in NJ .......................
If this guy had a fiberglass body on an "A" frame and a modern engine, why would he think that he quailfied for an "Antique" license plate. I wonder if it had one more old part, than the "A" frame.
MIKE
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:10 PM   #11
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

We do not need SEMA for this issue.

What we have are people breaking the law. Under the law if you take a car and modify it beyond some point then it is no longer the original car.

The state has rules that allow you to build a hot rod and title it. The rules require that it be safe and all your taxes are paid. Hot rod guys skirt the law by using the title to the original 'car' when often all that is original is some of the sheet metal and maybe some of the frame.

One of the items they look at is if the taxes have been paid on all of the parts. Under the law you are responsible to pay sales tax on all the items you buy. They only ask that you prove you paid sales taxes. Legally, if you buy a book for a quarter in another state in a garage sale then you must declare that item and pay sales tax on it in your state. If you bought and item in a state with 6% sales tax and your state has 7% then you are suppose to pay the difference on you tax return. I am sure everyone here does this

It is all cat and mouse game and the rules are just changing some.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

I have no problem with hot rodders meeting some safety standards. They are welded and constructed at all levels of skill. I meet them on the road. They haul their friends and family. I want them safe. I have nothing against rodders, I was one myself til I slowed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down to an A....
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:43 PM   #13
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Question Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

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Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
On Saturday I was at a small local show and talked to a guy with a T bucket pickup thing.

It was the basic 454 on a Model A frame with a later V8 front axle and some much newer rear axle. It had a T rad shell.

He had owned the car for a while and he had QQ tags (the NJ historic tags).
What is "Historic" about this. The "Historic Plates" were intended for Horseless Carrages and Classic Cars that are "Historic" and were recognized as such. The people who go to all the work and expense to restore and preserve these vehicles should be entitled to this recognition

If the guy had regestered his car with Regular Plates and had the problem, may be I could feel bad for him. He was taking advantage of the system and not working within the system. He was mis-representing his car and should not have had Historic Plates on it in the first place.

It is sort of like here in California where a person has a "Duce Roadster" built out of all new components with a modern drive train having 1932 YOM Plates on his car. What is 1932 about that???

MY OPINION,

Chris
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #14
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

The reason that NJ QQ tags are good for the rods is you do not have any inspection required. Not that inspection means much in NJ since they basically did away with everything but emissions in the last month or two.

Now you have have a car that is falling apart with no brakes on the road as long as it meets emissions. BUT if you get stopped at a mobile inspection station they can give you a $200 ticket for any violations. So I am waiting for them to add a bunch of mobile stations.

So the guys that has items such as no fenders, huge blower stack and what have you could drive their cars on the road. You also avoid the process of getting a title through all the inspections and proving the taxes.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

The them and us division with Hot rodders and stock Model A owners has no useful purpose here. Some Model A stock vehicles are unsafe on the road as well as some Hot rods. States are hesitant to declare any vehicle as safe since if it is involved in an accident, they may have some liability. We need to put a united front together and support the hobby stock or Hot rod. How did this animosity ever start anyway? I have seen and own quality stock Model A cars and quality Hot Rods. Both are fun to drive and we need to watch legislators so they do not infringe on our hobby. Policing safety is our responsibility as a hobby. MY OPINION.
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:30 PM   #16
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

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The them and us division with Hot rodders and stock Model A owners has no useful purpose here. Some Model A stock vehicles are unsafe on the road as well as some Hot rods. States are hesitant to declare any vehicle as safe since if it is involved in an accident, they may have some liability. We need to put a united front together and support the hobby stock or Hot rod. How did this animosity ever start anyway? I have seen and own quality stock Model A cars and quality Hot Rods. Both are fun to drive and we need to watch legislators so they do not infringe on our hobby. Policing safety is our responsibility as a hobby. MY OPINION.
VERY WELL SAID MR. MIDGETRACER, Herm.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

FWIW

I'm in agreement with Bruce and the others about hot rods not being antique vehicles. I am not against hot rods or like vehicles. A piece of sheet metal doesn't make it a '32 or '34. The unit is what the power plant, transmission and rear end is. They should be judged and treated as to when they are built. They are not restored modifieds, they are manufactured (hand built) vehicles.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

I recall that Boyd Coddington got in trouble with the State of California several years ago. Look up "Ship of Theseus".
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

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I recall that Boyd Coddington got in trouble with the State of California several years ago. Look up "Ship of Theseus".
YES,

As I remember, this had to do with Boyd building a customer car using all new components for the TV Show that featured Coddington's Shop. During the "Build", it was discussed how much the car was costing, well over 100K as I remember.

Shorty after the show aired, the owner tried to regester the car as a '32 Ford and stated it had a value of a "few" Thousand Dollars. Someone at the DMV happened to see the show and recognized the car. This opened up a big investigation into the "Industry" and how newly constructed vehicles were being regestered and valued. Boyd and the owner did not do the Hobby any favores and now it is way more complicated then ever even to get a lagidimate old car regestered.

I still feel a Hot Rod with no known "Provonance" and a late model engine and drive train should NOT be licensed as a "Historic" Vehicle.

May be SEMA and the Car Clubs should work toward getting a better system to regester these "Specially Constructed" Vehicles? May be there should be a catagory for "Specially Constructed, Limited Use Vehicles"?????

Again, JUST MY OPINION!

Chris
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods

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I recall that Boyd Coddington got in trouble with the State of California several years ago. Look up "Ship of Theseus".
Your absolutely right, Boyd was buying up junk cars and titles and then putting them on his hand crafted cars. By doing so the taxes paid were that of the original titled car and not what the actual selling price of the rod.

As for Ship of Theseus, we have discussed this at car shows and club meetings. This is one of those things that only have one "true answer" in my opinion. Anything changed that is not designed to change (air, oil, grease) make the car no longer an original.

With that said the question comes up can you still have a "Model A" with things changed. Again in my opinion yes! My criteria for a "Model A" is that the car contains all the things and lines that are expected on the original. Repair patches, yes, additional louvers and vents, no. New wire wheels, yes, 16" Wheels, no. Stainless bumpers, yes, Chrome dual horns with chrome light bar, no.

Now for my gray areas, as long as it does not change the drivability of the car its, ok. What does that mean? Alt is ok, automatic transmission, not.

Are all these cut and dried "rules" that I have, no. While the driveability of the car is not effected by juice brakes the fact that there are parts no longer used and no longer on the car it is my personal view is you no longer have an complete A.

So the example of the car that started this whole thread is that I agree with the State and it is not a model T worthy of discount plates and title.

As for States wanting to check the frame number of an otherwise "stock" Model A. I say leave us alone, what is the purpose of doing so? We have the car it is real. It has all the parts that as I stated make it a Model A why hassle us about the title. Does it really matter as far as the car remaining a Model A that the engine was built in 1931 instead of 1929? If someone had a business of building cars from parts and selling them you may have an argument. Or if your car was never titled and your state requires it then maybe an inspection is warranted. If they come out and state that they just want more money and they are enforcing laws on the books, at least I can give them credit for honesty (my town collects fines for running red lights using cameras, they at least say it is to raise funds and not the nonsense about making the intersection safer)

These are my views and I'm a nobody in this hobby. I don't judge cars (although I would love to learn), I don't restore cars so take the above for what you will.
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