Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2017, 09:42 PM   #1
vtwinsideways
Senior Member
 
vtwinsideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: T(r)aylorville IL
Posts: 135
Default What heads? 1941 half ton.

I have been trying to figure out which heads I need for a 1941 1/2 ton pickup with the optional Mercury engine. I would like them to be correct. Unfortunately the engine came with one 59AB and one 41A head. I have gotten some conflicting reports. Can anyone point me to some solid research or standards? Thanks for your time. Posted this on EFV8 too. Luke
__________________
I get all my excercise jumping to conclusions!
http://www.newporthillclimb.com/
vtwinsideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2017, 11:51 PM   #2
harley
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ouachita County Arkansas
Posts: 57
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

You need to check your personal messages. Harley
__________________
people have more trouble than anybody
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 07-22-2017, 09:02 AM   #3
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 5,526
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtwinsideways View Post
I have been trying to figure out which heads I need for a 1941 1/2 ton pickup with the optional Mercury engine. I would like them to be correct. Unfortunately the engine came with one 59AB and one 41A head. I have gotten some conflicting reports. Can anyone point me to some solid research or standards? Thanks for your time. Posted this on EFV8 too. Luke
I have done extensive research in regard to factory installed Mercury engines in to Ford vehicles while working on my book. This program began unofficially in 1940 and as such only a very small number of 1940 Fords were built this way. In 1941 the "program" became official but was not promoted so while more vehicles were built this way, the number by percentage of total '41 Fords produced remained insignificant.

I find your post especially interesting in regard to "coming with the optional Mercury engine".
The Mercury engine had (stock) cast iron heads with a large (about 1" in height) "T" cast upon the face of each head. Cast on the "edge" of one head is 99T-6049, on the other, 99T-6050.

Mercury engine installation in to a Ford in 1941 required written permission from the Ford Motor Co. This permission was only considered after a letter was submitted from a limited number of official departments (Fire, Police, Sherriff) through a dealer.
The letter from the official department had to be on their letterhead and explain why this vehicle was desired and the (official) capacity in which it would be used. That letter would then be forwarded to Ford Motor CO. with a letter of request from the dealer.
NO consideration was given to an "ordinary" citizen. I have never seen any record of a truck being built this way and I have a LOT of records.
I suppose it's possible "one slid through the cracks" but without documentation I'd suggest your truck was never built that way in 1941.
If you have documentation, I would be eager to inspect it if possible.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin

Last edited by Kube; 07-22-2017 at 09:09 AM.
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 09:20 AM   #4
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,657
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

They were likely used in large trucks but the pickup was not really considered a truck. Ford always referred to them as a commercial car. I think all the engines changed in the 1941 model year and the truck engines may have been relieved. The 99A block was replaced by the 19A block with the usual 1941 changes (don't know about factory reliefs). The blocks remained pretty much the same for 1942 (29A) with some internal changes. I imagine that the basic 29A design is what went to war in all the different track and scout car vehicles.

The valve locations were altered after the war. The angles were changed. This also made for changes in the heads for clearance. The 41A head was a replacement for a 221 engine so it may have fit the prewar 221 OK but I don't know about the 239. The 59A/AB type heads have to be cut a little bit in the valve pockets to work on the prewar 239 engines. This makes me wonder whether your engine is actually a prewar 239.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-22-2017 at 09:34 AM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 09:27 AM   #5
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,410
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtwinsideways View Post
I have been trying to figure out which heads I need for a 1941 1/2 ton pickup with the optional Mercury engine. I would like them to be correct. Unfortunately the engine came with one 59AB and one 41A head. I have gotten some conflicting reports. Can anyone point me to some solid research or standards? Thanks for your time. Posted this on EFV8 too. Luke
What leads you to believe it's a Mercury engine?
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 09:44 AM   #6
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 5,526
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
What leads you to believe it's a Mercury engine?
I'd like to know what leads him to believe it is a factory optioned Mercury equipped Ford.

There were 4182 - 1940 Fords built that way. I know of four in existence. One, a coupe, is a complete basket case.
All four have factory documentation.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 02:33 PM   #7
40cpe
Senior Member
 
40cpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Star, MS
Posts: 3,432
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Well, the original poster didn't directly say it "came with" the Mercury engine. He just wants to know what the correct heads were on the optional Mercury engine. I don't know the answer, but maybe someone here can give him the information he is looking for.
40cpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 03:10 PM   #8
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 5,682
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40cpe View Post
Well, the original poster didn't directly say it "came with" the Mercury engine. He just wants to know what the correct heads were on the optional Mercury engine. I don't know the answer, but maybe someone here can give him the information he is looking for.
This is Kube's '40 Mercury engine that is going in his "documented" '40 convertible that was factory ordered with Merc engine with this particular type of "special" heads (99AS). Kube only said that he looked high and low for these heads for eons, and that they had severely "lightened" his wallet. Maybe he'll check back in here with more details. DD

__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


Understand the subject at hand before you disagree!





Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 07-24-2017 at 05:15 PM.
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 06:21 PM   #9
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,657
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

The 99T heads (big "T") and the 81A or big "A" heads were both used on the 99 series engines until 1942 when the 29A heads came out. The first year 39 Mercury cars had the 81A heads on them. There were 41T replacements after the war but they are listed for blocks with sleeves and were likely for 221 CID engines. The average replacement head was the 59 series but they had to be cut a bit to insure clearance with the valves in the prewar engines.

The AS or Denver heads are very rare and were special application only so I don't think too many cars left the factory with them. Kube had to look long & hard for his and his stuff is documented.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 10:36 PM   #10
vtwinsideways
Senior Member
 
vtwinsideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: T(r)aylorville IL
Posts: 135
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Copying this from the thread on EFV8: I have been having very little luck in researching the '40-'41 pickups. The only book I am aware of is Howard Town's Two Great Trucks and it is fairly limited but does refer to the optional engine. Vanpelts website also has a little bit of info on the 1941 models and refers to a commercial model 19C. The rest of my info is just hearsay from a few folks who have been doing this much longer than I and I have seen a pair of '41 trucks over the last few years with the Merc engines, one who's owner claimed it was stock. To start off with, I'm not certain what my wife's '41 came with. When her father bought it around 10 years ago, it had no drivetrain. He did a mild hot rod job on it that we are trying to undo. We started collecting parts to convert it back and I went on the hunt for a "raised deck" prewar flathead. A friend had one and we purchased it and began the grueling process of tearing down the seized engine. In researching I found that it is a 1941 or 1942 Mercury. It had the short cam, the pancake distributor and dual pulleys, so odds are it's a 1942 however it also has a rebuild tag and has been floating around in the world of no documentation for a long time, so who knows at this point. I have no illusions when it comes to the world of "all original". Frankly, I don't have the skills or the patience, but I do want the truck to be right. I realize that the most likely way for it to be "correct" involves letting go of the Merc and beginning the search for a Ford, however the limited knowledge I have on the subject pointed me in the direction of the Mercury being a plausabe option.

Thank you 40cpe.

I have no documentation. I have no desire to pass this truck off as "all original". My wife inherited this truck with a hot rod drive train when her father died and she would like to see it stock and drivable. She would like to drive it in the Newport Hill Climb. She has no intention of ever parting with this truck as it is a tangible and lasting memory of her father. I made no such claims to Kube or anyone else that the truck came with the engine I am trying to find the right heads for. The small amount of information I had been able to aquire on 1941 Ford Commercial 112" pickups indicated that the Model 19C came with such an engine. As one was readily available to me I purchased it and began working and researching on it. I didn't mean to start a rukus. Thank you very much. Lukus W. McLeod
__________________
I get all my excercise jumping to conclusions!
http://www.newporthillclimb.com/

Last edited by vtwinsideways; 07-22-2017 at 10:47 PM.
vtwinsideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 10:54 PM   #11
vtwinsideways
Senior Member
 
vtwinsideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: T(r)aylorville IL
Posts: 135
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Should I haul this truck in for scrap because the previous string of owners didn't take exemplary care of it and didn't keep records? No. I am trying to be a better custodian of it and put it back on the road as it may have been. I have no idea how it was, except that it wasn't a 4cyl or a 6cyl. And so I came here looking for answers and feel like found instead an argument. Please forgive a novice.
__________________
I get all my excercise jumping to conclusions!
http://www.newporthillclimb.com/

Last edited by vtwinsideways; 07-23-2017 at 12:06 AM.
vtwinsideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 11:24 PM   #12
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 13,410
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Vt think you may be miss reading the inputs you are getting on the Barn. You are talking with THE experts on the 40/41 vechiles (me not included in that group). Your first post was a little difficult to understand, but think you cleared that up. I think the point was the Mercury may not have been an option. Now I know very little about these years engine wise, but with the later engines the blocks are all the same. What makes the engine a Ford or Mercury are add-ons. Is there something different with the 42 block between the Ford and Mercury?

Last edited by JSeery; 07-22-2017 at 11:30 PM.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 11:41 PM   #13
vtwinsideways
Senior Member
 
vtwinsideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: T(r)aylorville IL
Posts: 135
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

I don't know, but the 100 hp we're referred to as Mercury's when I was reading threads here while trying to identify the engine late last year.
__________________
I get all my excercise jumping to conclusions!
http://www.newporthillclimb.com/
vtwinsideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 12:25 AM   #14
vtwinsideways
Senior Member
 
vtwinsideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: T(r)aylorville IL
Posts: 135
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Having trouble posting pics... https://photos.app.goo.gl/lcM3wtItxPak4lBH2
This is the engine I bought from a friend. If he had a "raised deck" 221, I would have bought it, avoiding much confusion. Just to clarify another issue, the 59AB and 41A heads that came with it were not on the engine when I bought it. Sorry again for my inability to communicate in a clear way. As a few on this board already know, I'm not any easier to understand on the phone. I struggle with it daily.
__________________
I get all my excercise jumping to conclusions!
http://www.newporthillclimb.com/

Last edited by vtwinsideways; 07-23-2017 at 01:19 AM.
vtwinsideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 08:42 AM   #15
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 5,526
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtwinsideways View Post
Should I haul this truck in for scrap because the previous string of owners didn't take exemplary care of it and didn't keep records? No. I am trying to be a better custodian of it and put it back on the road as it may have been. I have no idea how it was, except that it wasn't a 4cyl or a 6cyl. And so I came here looking for answers and feel like found instead an argument. Please forgive a novice.
I certainly don't feel you brought any argument forward. Rather, I believe you have brought a discussion forward.

I think the majority of us attempt to answer any question as best we can. Many of us answer with a fairly good background of experience.
You'll soon, if so interested, figure out who you can perhaps have more faith in than others. There are a number of guys on this forum that I have learned a lot from and no doubt will continue to learn a lot from.

Nope, I'd suggest you set aside any notion of "starting an argument" and ask about anything you so desire.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 08:46 AM   #16
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,657
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Good communication now. No need to worry about it. If I were in your shoes and I already had a good 239 block to work with, I'd use it for a project like that whether it was a 99 type or a 59 type. If the little pickup came with a 239 in 1941, it would likely have been included in the VIN number with a 99C prefix at the beginning. They used the 9C prefix for commercials with the little 9N tractor engines. As far as heads are concerned, you would need 99T heads for the time period but the Big"A" 81A heads would be somewhat higher compression and might make it work better with the reliefs. I wouldn't be afraid to use 29A heads if some were located. They are all period correct even if not original. Rodder's back in the day would have been going for the best stuff they could find. If it is set up for a crab distributor, I'd use that too. It's simple and easier to work with and would be fine with a crank mounted fan. It may already have 29A con rods in it if it's a later engine and there is nothing wrong with those.

It's your pickup to do it your way.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-23-2017 at 09:13 AM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 01:10 PM   #17
G32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 253
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtwinsideways View Post
Having trouble posting pics... https://photos.app.goo.gl/lcM3wtItxPak4lBH2
Th/is is the engine I bought from a friend. If he had a "raised deck" 221, I would have bought it, avoiding much confusion. Just to clarify another issue, the 59AB and 41A heads that came with it were not on the engine when I bought it. Sorry again for my inability to communicate in a clear way. As a few on this board already know, I'm not any easier to understand on the phone. I struggle with it daily.
Luke; The picture you show on this post is 41-42 model 99 block
as used in pre-war Mercury cars. Also available in trucks( 3/4 t -up).
239 99 id key is Circular center water transfer port (only on 39-42
99 blocks) 41-42 model bocks had the so-called 'raised deck'
outlining the sides of the intake manifold.

3 3/16 bore 239 (3 1/16 -221 blocks) also had larger rod
journals than 221 -- 2.139 " on 239 -- 2 "' rod jounals on 221.

Others have said original 221 vehicles have 18 serial # prefixes
Factory 239 equipted vehicles have 99 SN prefixes on frame
and on transmission above bellhousing vent plate.

Special engine block you have--use it and enjoy!

Gene Tulsa
G32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 01:34 PM   #18
Kube
Senior Member
 
Kube's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 5,526
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G32 View Post
Luke; The picture you show on this post is 41-42 model 99 block
as used in pre-war Mercury cars. Also available in trucks( 3/4 t -up).
239 99 id key is Circular center water transfer port (only on 39-42
99 blocks) 41-42 model bocks had the so-called 'raised deck'
outlining the sides of the intake manifold.

3 3/16 bore 239 (3 1/16 -221 blocks) also had larger rod
journals than 221 -- 2.139 " on 239 -- 2 "' rod jounals on 221.

Others have said original 221 vehicles have 18 serial # prefixes
Factory 239 equipted vehicles have 99 SN prefixes on frame
and on transmission above bellhousing vent plate.

Special engine block you have--use it and enjoy!

Gene Tulsa
Gene,
As I'd stated earlier, I have done extensive research in Ford's policy of installing Mercury engines in to Fords. That research was focused mainly on '39 - '40 but as necessary, it over lapped in to 1941.

In regard to serial numbers, it became quite obvious early in my research that there was no particular way that Ford handled this issue. Or, if there was, it was not documented and most certainly not adhered to.

Of the four 1940 Fords that I am 100% certain had Mercury engines installed in them upon the assembly line, only one had a "99" prefix serial number. That car, a convertible also had "99" stamped in to the dash. Another convertible, the car that I am currently restoring - has the typical "18" prefix. It has "99" stamped in to the dash.
Both convertibles had body tags that included only the body (sequence) number.
The remaining two that I know of are both coupes. One that I had sold two to three years ago had a prefix of "PC". It also had a "body tag" with that very same serial number fastened to the dash. There was no "99" stamped in the dash.
The other coupe has the typical "18" prefix and no other identification (tag, stamping...).
All four of these cars have been well researched and documented as being factory equipped with the Mercury engine.
__________________
"Imagination is a crutch used by those who lack knowledge and intelligence ."
B
. Franklin
Kube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 08:39 PM   #19
harley
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ouachita County Arkansas
Posts: 57
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

I took a closer look at the heads I have today. They have the big T embossed on them but they are marked 81T-6049 and 81T-6050. The block has 99 stamped close to the front on the intake deck. I know it is a 239cu. Sorry they are not 99T heads.
__________________
people have more trouble than anybody
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 06:41 AM   #20
JWL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 1,963
Default Re: What heads? 1941 half ton.

The heads installed on 99.9999% of vehicles like your wife's truck had the letter "A" usually in the middle area. These should be inexpensive and relatively easy to find.
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:11 AM.