King Pins

[Sod Buster]

Are the needle bearing king pin kits worth it over the standard brass bushing sets?
I am changing them out on my 47 sedan, drivers side taped right out the top, it came out like taking candy from a baby, passenger side was a nightmare but it came out after cutting the top ring off and driving it down.

[4dFord/SC]

I've had a set in mine for 15 years. The steering is noticeably lighter (but nowhere near power steering).

[Sod Buster]

Thanks 4d.

[RalphM]

I still prefer the bushing type. I just don’t like anything modern.

[rich b]

Can't say, I'd see the need for them. Friend's wore little grooves like a u-joint, would have thought the pieces would have been harder to prevent that kind of wear.

[19Fordy]

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Stick with the original style bushings. They will last you the rest of your life. Cheaper too.

[Sod Buster]

I think I will stick with the original brass and keep it as close to original as possible, thanks for the input.

[TJ]

Originally Posted by 19fordy

stick with the original style bushings. They will last you the rest of your life. Cheaper too.

x2.

[Sod Buster]

I was looking at the Vanpelt site and do not see the acorn nut that goes on the retaining pin with the kit, the drivers side was broken off so I need the nut also, Mac's kind of has me in limbo back order land on a lot of sundry parts, radiator hoses, distributer end cap, motor mounts so I was looking elsewhere for king pins kit.

[JSeery]

I would start with the NOS guys and then the other suppliers often recommended here on the Barn, starting with VanPelts. Macs would be my last source.

[40cpe]

This set shows the acorn stop nuts in the auction picture, but did not come with the kit I got from them. Maybe he has the acorn nuts.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1937-41...IAAOSwzOxUYDiw

[woodiewagon46]

There have been several articles written about premature failure rate of the needle bearings. Bearings are designed to run at a rated RPM and if properly maintained, will last a long time. The failure of the needle bearings used in the front end is because of the limited, arc of lock to lock steering. I remember when the latest and greatest was the "Teflon" bearings, well we all know how they turned out. I agree with the old tried and true bushings people.

[grumppyoldman]

I wish I had left mine in, everyone said my shimmy was caused by the needle bearing's but it was the toe-in was set wrong. The needle bearing's was easier to steer than the bushings I have now. If you go with the bushing's have them honed to fit the pin's, don't ream them, you get a better fit. Al

[Tinker]

I put in regular old solid bearings and then took the axle and spindles to a machine shop. (I don't have a reamer) (they were well versed in old ford). They fit the pins, it was cheap. Done and done. No issues at 70mph.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

I was looking at the Vanpelt site and do not see the acorn nut that goes on the retaining pin with the kit, the drivers side was broken off so I need the nut also, Mac's kind of has me in limbo back order land on a lot of sundry parts, radiator hoses, distributer end cap, motor mounts so I was looking elsewhere for king pins kit.

Try Roy.

http://fordscript.com/


Depending on yr the "acorn" ends also acted as a steering stop. 38 had longer ends that stopped the wheel from turning so far. I can take pictures at some point, if you like.

[Sod Buster]

Thanks for the info everyone.

[Tinker]

A lot of us surely miss joblot automotive.

[Seth Swoboda]

SodBuster,

I just did this repair on my '47 this winter. I installed new bushings, king pins, had them honed to fit and the results are amazing. I would not use the needle bearing type kit.

[russcc]

Surprised nobody mentioned Fred Wilner at SSO, that where I got my NORS king pin set for the '40. Barnfind08 on the forum.

[cas3]

x2...south side obsolete...google him up

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

SodBuster,

I just did this repair on my '47 this winter. I installed new bushings, king pins, had them honed to fit and the results are amazing. I would not use the needle bearing type kit.

Less moving parts, less problems.



.

[Sod Buster]

I had been ignoring a funky weld glob on the top side of my axle.



So I cut it off to see what was under there.



So my king pin job just got a little more involved, does this need replaced or just a proper weld?

[Tinker]

It can be welded.... but I'd replace it. It's forged. welding can warp metal also. Good catch. Looks like a real nice low heat weld. Replace the axle.




Shouldn't be to bad to replace. Not like the all the steering depends on it and weight of the car is forced on it.


Hard to believe it cracked there really.


.

[Tinker]

Be careful taking the spring off. Better when it's in the car. Save those spring covers and reuse. They are way cool and functional.


Depending on where you want to go... good time to get a drop axle. Not to be presumptuous, but you've posted your interior done before by a old timer, so I'm guessing stock isn't the end game. All good. Sid most likely has straight stockers too.

https://www.droppedaxles.com/ford-dropped-axles-0


Just know off hand, depending on drop you will need to bend spindle arms and possibly shorting the tie rod.


.




.

[Sod Buster]

I wouldn't mind dropping the front a tad, yeah the interior is different it was done in 1968 then the car sat, I really don't want to change the car I kind of like the weirdness of it, lol, I am mainly just wanting to get the car as mechanically sound as possible. If I could get the parts gathered it would help speed the process.

A pic under the hood, I took a few liberties, if this car doesn't belong here let me know and I will delete it. The knowledge here has been invaluable!
I'm stuck waiting on parts under the hood.

[Tinker]

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For sure it belongs here. Less you want to put airbag suspension or a MM2 frontend in.




.

[Sod Buster]

You guys talked me through my brake drum hub swap, lol.
I have all these new parts and can't put them on.



Stuck here waiting on a cap.

[Tinker]

Pandora's box! You opened it.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Pandora's box! You opened it.

Hahaha.

[Tinker]

At least you are smart enough to start to close it. Look forward to your progress.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws-_syszg84




is it weird of me to wonder your later posts are of a complete front axle and your previous post are of a spindle dissembled on a bench....




.

[Sod Buster]

The spindles are waiting on king pins and now the king pins are waiting on an axle, lol.

[Seth Swoboda]

Definitely keep those spring covers.

I currently have the rear end and transmission out of my '47. Doing a total rear end rebuild with 3:54 ring and pinion. Also going to rebuild the transmission while I have this all apart.

[Sod Buster]

I have not looked real close at the spring covers beyond skinning 72 years of grease and possum guts off of them, it looked like some type of staples attaching them, are they difficult to remove from the old spring without destroying them.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

Definitely keep those spring covers.

I currently have the rear end and transmission out of my '47. Doing a total rear end rebuild with 3:54 ring and pinion. Also going to rebuild the transmission while I have this all apart.

Sounds like you have started on the opposite end than me, I'm trying not to think about back there yet, the wife comes out and catches me with the back end torn off, I'll have some splaining to do.

[Sod Buster]

rich b, stepped up and offered me a steering stop nut for the retaining pin that was MIA, he already has it in the mail, what a great resource and people at the Barn!

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

Sounds like you have started on the opposite end than me, I'm trying not to think about back there yet, the wife comes out and catches me with the back end torn off, I'll have some splaining to do.

I worked front to back. I did the king pin work back in December. Doing the rear end and transmission work now. Going to be visiting my friend Michael Driskell at Third Gen Automotive real soon.

I'll be set for a rollicking good time in Auburn for the EFV8 club national meet.

[JSeery]

If you are looking for a dropped axle check with Sid's.

https://www.droppedaxles.com/

[Mart]

Am I missing something? The weld on the axle can just be ground off, can't it? I can't see a crack.

Can you see any reason why the weld was put on there?

Mart.

[JSeery]

Welding should be a none issue on a forged part.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by Mart

Am I missing something? The weld on the axle can just be ground off, can't it? I can't see a crack.

Can you see any reason why the weld was put on there?

Mart.

It's for sure cracked, half way across the top it seems an odd place for it to crack, I am dreading the perch removal from what I have read it can be ugly.
If a drop axle is installed will other changes be needed, I don't want it in the weeds but a slight drop would be nice.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by JSeery

If you are looking for a dropped axle check with Sid's.

https://www.droppedaxles.com/

The four inch drop axle states "1946-48 Dropped Axles are $250 plus shipping to drop yours" what does to drop yours mean?

So is a dropped axle $250.00 and shipping.

[rich b]

The $250 is Sid's charge to drop your axle; plus return shipping. Problem is your axle is cracked. Might give him a call to see if he has an axle he will sell outright.

You will have to heat and bend your steering arms to clear a dropped axle, or Sid can bend your arms if the spindles are sent with the axle.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by rich b

The $250 is Sid's charge to drop your axle; plus return shipping. Problem is your axle is cracked. Might give him a call to see if he has an axle he will sell outright.

You will have to heat and bend your steering arms to clear a dropped axle, or Sid can bend your arms if the spindles are sent with the axle.

I called them and sent photos of the ugly, I am doubting if its a good core, Sid was not there but was supposed to take a look and let me know, its only a two hour drive so I will probably just haul it over myself, I wonder if they can remove the perch? The perch worries me, lol.

[JSeery]

I enjoy visiting them, I think that is the way to go.

[Sod Buster]

Well, two bolts left in the disassembly of my king pin job, lol, I still haven't decided if I'm going to try this in the garage, I'm going to sleep on it and hope it falls apart on its own tonight.

[Andy]

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Years ago, I bought a 32 axle at Pate. Someone had cut the ends off and welded on shoebox uprights. Terrible. I had some axle ends that came with some brakes. I made S shaped parts and welded the whole thing up. I made a weld jig. It turned out great.I ended up with a dropped and filled heavy 32 axle for the cost of some welding rod and the $10 for the axle. You can gouge the hell out of that crack and weld it back. I used 7018 and cleaned between passes.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

Well, two bolts left in the disassembly of my king pin job, lol, I still haven't decided if I'm going to try this in the garage, I'm going to sleep on it and hope it falls apart on its own tonight.

Might want to just take the whole assembly to Sid's and let them show you how to go it.

[Tinker]

Take your time on the perches. Heat them then add some pm blaster / kroll. repeat.


After a couple heats and cool downs, put a big wrench on the upper part of the perch and see if it will turn. (nut off). If it does, wiggle it some, then add some heat and penetrating oil. It will loosen up.


If you get impatient. make sure at least the perch nut is on when you pound on it. Easy to smash it.




.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

The four inch drop axle states "1946-48 Dropped Axles are $250 plus shipping to drop yours" what does to drop yours mean?

So is a dropped axle $250.00 and shipping.

I believe a 4" will only drop it a couple inches. As they are already dropped from factory 2" give or take.

As mentioned you send him an axle he drops it and sends it back.


Or just find a good stock axle and use it. No issues with stock. Will most likely need to bend spindle arms and messing with tie rods if you go dropped. I just added Sids as an option, not the only road. Driving is sometimes more fun then spending money and time for small cosmetics.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Might want to just take the whole assembly to Sid's and let them show you how to go it.

If they don't fall out on their own tonight and Sid's will remove them that sounds like a plan, I have not heard back from them yet, the gal I talked to said he might have to check salvage yards if he didn't have one. I want a way back machine to the salvage yards they use, lol.

[Tinker]

Might be expensive to ship the whole front end off.


You can do it.

[tubman]

I remember seeing a thread on the H.A.M.B. about removing perch bolts. Basically, the guy who posted it made a very sturdy fixture that fit on the bolts and pulled them out. Pounding on them can make them "mushroom" and wedge them even more tightly in the axle. The "SEARCH" function over there is pretty good, so you may want to find it and take a look at it.

It is a smart move to let it sit upside down overnite; you may get lucky and they'll fall out by themselves. Gravity is your friend.

[Tinker]

This one tubman?


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...damage.649367/

[Tinker]

Heat, oil, time, and getting it to turn with a wrench will work.


see post 7# 16#, worth a try. worked for me.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42660

I've popped a few with a press and the nut level too. I've also mushroomed one by smacking the sh!t out of it too.

Heat, time, and penetrating oil never has hurt no matter the method.


Good luck! Let us know what you did.

.

[tubman]

That's it!

[Andy]

That was my thread. I would pull them for you if I was close. I can fix the threads if you damage them. I have not fixed any since I posted the thread!

[Sod Buster]

Since it was upside down I got a good light and could find no crack on the bottom side so I spent an hour crack filing, and do believe I managed to remove the crack I almost think it was a void in the iron, I had to go fairly deep but I do not think I removed to much meat as to make the axle unusable.
Some pics of it, tell me what you think.



I had to take some of the top ridge.





From the bottom. I'm thinking 1947 iron has to be over engineered to where with no sharp edges around the file location, the axle should be sound, what does everyone else think?

[Tinker]

maybe another run with the tig.

[cas3]

the civilized way to remove perch bolts is with a press. i made a chunk of heavy wall pipe ground at the correct angle to hold the pin vertical, and clamp a 2x6 over the top of the press to hold the whole axle and wishbone level with ratchet straps. then press, if it dont move with big pressure, heat the axle a little bit and wait for the BANG, then it commin out. two people is a plus, but i am usually too impatient to wait for help. this process is the results of the progression from wrecking parts in my youth by hammering, then when affluent enough to own an air hammer to wreck them even worse, to finally using a press. every growing boy should have one, or at least a good neighbor . sid and his pa, okie joe place a core charge of only 50 bucks i believe on your axle as its not s much in demand as the narrower 28 to 36 types on most "project builds". i'm sure they will do it for you at a price, but find a press and go for it

[Tinker]

just for fun... make sure when pressing the pins out run the nut up flush to the pin. adds surface area and support to the pin. It'll pop. Slow as you go, let the pressure settle. Don't crank the crap out of it.


harbor freight sells a okay starter 12 ton press for around 150$

[JSeery]

Guys, we were not talking about shipping anything, Sids is a fairly short drive from Wichita.

[Sod Buster]

I think I believe in the integrity of the axle, what ever was there did not go through the I-beam, I think these cars were way over built for bombing around on the rough roads of that time. I worked all the sharp edges out of the area to minimize break line, There are really no signs of the axle ever hitting anything I think it was a manufacturing defect and some one filled it with ugly, it probably drove around with the funky weld for years. I think I will reinstall it and keep an eye on it and use the money elsewhere getting the car back up to speed, I look forward to posting a photo of it back together, lol.

[Sod Buster]

If anyone needs 1947 king pin, perch bolt, info you guys put a lot of it in here for anyone searching, thank you.

[Sod Buster]

Ok, another question, the spring shackle bushing on the drivers side popped right out and seems different from the passenger side, as it does not allow movement and looks like a two piece metal bushing. The original shackle link bolt hole is square so it is solid on the passenger side and seemed to allow movement on the drive side, the drivers side had a disintegrated rubber bushing so it fell right out.

Pic of locked up bushing, I put heat to it and put a socket over the bolt so as not to destroy it and gave it a few good hits with a big hammer and nothing.

On a positive note I ordered a Posies three inch drop spring and shackles yesterday morning from Speedway Motors, they were on the porch this morning, how do they do that? And free shipping!



Old shackles.



I have not destroyed the old bushing bolt, yet, lol, I could use the old shackle link if I drill the top out to fit the new shackle bolt through the spring with the rubber bushings, they are the same length as the old ones, but if I do that there will be no movement where it attaches to the wish bone frame.
Pic below shows how the old shackle fits over the square base, and locked in that position, was it designed that way or is it just seized. And yes they are upside down but either way locked in a vertical position.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Sod Buster]

I received a package from rich b today, what an awesome bunch, it looks like the same vintage and low mileage steering stop nut that was MIA on my car, I wouldn't be surprised if rich b gets a little something something in the mail himself.

[Sod Buster]

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Maybe cut it off at the base then drill it out?

[cas3]

stinky nasty job, but i burn out the rubber until you can pull the stud out with a vise grip, then if you are good with a cutting torch, clean the tip, then cut a slice out of the outer shell. its thin and will cut fast without wrecking any thing else. sissy's will avoid this and use a hack saw blade instead.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by cas3

stinky nasty job, but i burn out the rubber until you can pull the stud out with a vise grip, then if you are good with a cutting torch, clean the tip, then cut a slice out of the outer shell. its thin and will cut fast without wrecking any thing else. sissy's will avoid this and use a hack saw blade instead.

Is there actually rubber there, I have looked and poked and it looks like metal inside a metal bushing.

[cas3]

hmm...looking at your picture i have to agree it looks like metal. sometimes the ends are curved around the rubber, but if you poked at it with a pick you should find out. if its a steel or bronze bushing you will need to devise a press of some sort. i am not familiar with that type with a shock mount, perhaps some one else will have a better idea

[Sod Buster]

I took cas3 advise and put my big boy pants on and put the heat to it longer it slowly started to smoke so it was burning something off, At that point I used the old spring links like a wrench and a rubber hammer to turn them, barely, at that point I cut the ends off and used a brass drift to drive it out.



Moved pretty good until the half way point, naturally.



I had to put the radius ball against a concrete ledge in the garage to back it up, and used plyer to hold the drift as I was swinging from the bleachers to knock it out.



Half way, lol, I used the hack saw trick and got a cut started, then used a punch that I put an angle chisel point on round on the other to slide under the bushing, it was slow going. There was some kind of cloth fiber packing in it.
Pic below, pin, packing, what's left of the bushing.

[Fordors]

Didn’t Ford OEM bushings use asbestos, while the aftermarket substituted rubber?

[Sod Buster]

Well that's scary, there was all kinds of dust coming out of it as I beat on it I hope I get it back together before I die, lol.

[JSeery]

Lot of asbestos in the old cars!

[cas3]

way to go!!! fighting with these things can bring the best of your creativity. with only the tools at hand, you won! nice photo's too

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by cas3

way to go!!! fighting with these things can bring the best of your creativity. with only the tools at hand, you won! nice photo's too

I just needed a little hand holding there for a minute, lol.

[Tinker]

I use poly bushings now, in this case. Other times the original bushings are better. I know it's not totally concourse. But boy, they work well and easy to replace. If I was doing a points car I would always use original style bushings.


If you reuse the original type they will need to be pressed in. and they will last another 60-70plus yrs.


Front end suspension rebuild is one of the more labor intensive jobs, that can be done by yourself.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

I think I believe in the integrity of the axle, what ever was there did not go through the I-beam, I think these cars were way over built for bombing around on the rough roads of that time. I worked all the sharp edges out of the area to minimize break line, There are really no signs of the axle ever hitting anything I think it was a manufacturing defect and some one filled it with ugly, it probably drove around with the funky weld for years. I think I will reinstall it and keep an eye on it and use the money elsewhere getting the car back up to speed, I look forward to posting a photo of it back together, lol.

I don't know the the extent of the the crack or weld, a crack is not a manufacturing issue. But I would look at it seriously. Somewhere there is a display axles twisted for displays to show strength.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I don't know the the extent of the the crack or weld, a crack is not a manufacturing issue. But I would look at it seriously. Somewhere there is a display axles twisted for displays to show strength.

I was able to file it out, and left no sharp break line, and there was nothing through the top of the eyebeam, I can see no signs of damage to the bottom of the axle, no scrapes even, where it is at is odd. I do not think it was a crack so much as a void and the weld did not look very hot just voluminous.
I will for sure keep an eye on it and would let any future owner know of the condition. I haven't written off Sid's, but with out a core it will be a little expensive and I'm spending quite a bit in bits and pieces as is.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Sod Buster

I was able to file it out, and left no sharp break line, and there was nothing through the top of the eyebeam, I can see no signs of damage to the bottom of the axle, no scrapes even, where it is at is odd. I do not think it was a crack so much as a void and the weld did not look very hot just voluminous.
I will for sure keep an eye on it and would let any future owner know of the condition. I haven't written off Sid's, but with out a core it will be a little expensive and I'm spending quite a bit in bits and pieces as is.

Since Sid is so close, maybe you could kill two birds with one stone, by taking it to him and having him evaluate it. Since he works with these all the time, he can probably tell you if it's compromised or not. If it's good, you could have him drop it, no core charge. If you're lucky you may even get him to fill the gouge in the top. Just a suggestion.

Sounds like a good excuse for a road trip and a tour.

[Sod Buster]

Just an update after all the help, I am close to reinstalling everything, I should have my spindles back Monday, I am just doing a little final clean underneath while its open.
Thanks again for the help and advise, it obviously went a little further than king pins.

[Sod Buster]

A couple of things that I found were high corrosion areas where the bracket bushing set up holds moisture, the radius ball cup was pretty bad, I drilled a weep hole to allow moisture to get out.



The same for the stabilizer bar bushing bracket on the passenger side.
These areas seem to really hold the moisture and corrode badly.

[Tinker]

Suppose you could thread wish bone cup for a zerk. not sure I'd worry to much once replaced.

[Sod Buster]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Suppose you could thread wish bone cup for a zerk. not sure I'd worry to much once replaced.

Those two areas seem to create a natural pond, I think it just needed away for the moisture to escape.

[Tinker]

All good. no harm. Some grease will help keep the rust away. Not a part that was designed for lubrication. Maybe the what you did will help.


Nice work on the front end!

[cas3]

supposed to be a rubber ball on the wishbone, and if new, and once tightened up i dont think moisture can get it. the wrecks i usually play with, the rubber has been shot for decades and then it held water. rubber dont like oil or grease, but i cant resist, and coat the ball with antisieze.

[Sod Buster]

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The old one was pretty toasty, and I bet you are right about the old rubber holding moisture.

[Tinker]

Huh, interesting ball. Guess drilling a hole makes a lot more sense now.


A solid ball is tight and wouldn't get much moisture. It needs to tight, it's a point you wouldn't want there to be much play.


Best of luck!

[Sod Buster]

All most there, passenger side in the morning and install the drag link and tie rod maybe have rubber under it again tomorrow.
Thanks for the help.

[Tinker]

Looks good.



Reverse eye, maybe some drop shackles (pete and jake)?