Bought three Flathead V8 engines yesterday

[gavinnz]

I went to see a friend today and after a few hours of looking at old engines and talking we did a deal and I have bought all his Ford flathead V8 engines. I plan to build one good one from the three to power a 1930's New Zealand built wooden barrel back, V stern speedboat I have to restore.

I would love some help getting the engines years and types nailed down.

1. "the car engine" Pulled from a twin spinner car. Number "RE2 92" stamped on block face.... 24 bolt. Has on 8BA cast on one head and EAC on the other. (head swaped for Merc head??) Made in Canada. Side dizzi.

2. "the truck engine" Pulled from a bus. Number "RE2 71" stamped on block, both heads have 8RT on them, so truck? Made in Canada. Side dizzi.

3. "Rust ball engine" 24 stud, water outlet in middle of heads, front dizzi mount. Built in bell housing. Only good for parts if I am lucky. Seriously rusty.

Any clues there? I was figuring 1952 for 1 and 2??
Regards
Gavin
New Zealand

[cas3]

there is a very good engine id thread running now. go back a day or so, "block id" i believe is the title. good luck with the motors, and whats a "twin spinner" ?

[V8ER]

'51 Ford grille is a twin spinner.

[cas3]

i had a 50 once, i guess i had a single spinner and never knew it!

[alanwoodieman]

rustball engine appears to be late 38 thru 41 engine. 24 stud, pencil ledge above timing cover, different years have slight variables

[alanwoodieman]

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look on here for the boat motor vs industrial motor thread, you need that motor!

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by alanwoodieman

look on here for the boat motor vs industrial motor thread, you need that motor!

Than for the tip, I had seen that and I tried to message the seller to see if he would sell the exhaust manifolds but I got an error message.
I can make my own wet exhaust manifolds anyway... old ones will need work especially if they had been in salt water.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by alanwoodieman

rustball engine appears to be late 38 thru 41 engine. 24 stud, pencil ledge above timing cover, different years have slight variables

I will try and put up another photo of the front s the distributor drive might help date it too....

[Mike in AZ]

Welcome to the ‘Barn. Post some pics of your project as you progress. Sounds like fun. Mike

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by Mike in AZ

Welcome to the ‘Barn. Post some pics of your project as you progress. Sounds like fun. Mike

Thanks for the welcome Mike!

[Tim Ayers]

Twin pulley water pumps is big truck.

The one in the middle is leading me to believe it's a '48 truck motor due to the 8BA style block but use of head studs. This was the only series of 8BA style blocks that used studs.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Twin pulley water pumps is big truck.

The one in the middle is leading me to believe it's a '48 truck motor due to the 8BA style block but use of head studs. This was the only series of 8BA style blocks that used studs.

That's really interesting!! I was wondering why it had studs and not bolts on that block... it came from a 1952 bus but who knows what it was fitting from new... you might have it there.

[gavinnz]

Went mad and bought 5 books on rebuilding and hotting up the flathead! They should be here in a few days.... no substitute for the right information!

[gavinnz]

The "truck motor" with the studs, is Canadian made and has "C1BA" cast in razed letters on the back of the engine just behind the right head above where the bell housing goes on... a web page listing Canadian production as that casting meaning 1951....
I wonder if the Canadian engines used the studs longer than USA built motors?
Or mine have been changed??

[gavinnz]

The motor with the bolts "the car motor" is also "C1BA" block casting number....

[gavinnz]

I love learning new things so I am having great fun here... I have spent all day and all yesterday reading about Flatheads. Lots to learn! I was just reading about fitting the crab type distributor on the later 8BA block.... I like that idea. I might have to hunt up the parts I need. Some of which I might be able to get off my "rust ball" engine?? Was that a crab originally? Fingers crossed the cam might be OK in there also.... if I can use that one for the conversion..?

[gavinnz]

I think I have found more clues on the "ball of rust" engine...
It fits this description of a Model 29A engine built from 1942 to 45....
"Crab-Style distributor, water outlet on center of cylinder head, passes pencil test"

[corvette8n]

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...85to100mid.htm
This may help identify your early block, lots of good info on this site.
Welcome to the barn.

[skidmarks]

rusty motor looks like the distributor itself is cast iron

[alanwoodieman]

could be a LUCAS distributor as they were on some engines during the war years from Canada

[Ol' Ron]

when you dissemble these engines, make sure you keep the rods with the crankshafts. I say this to insure the balance of the crank asssy is not broken. The factory balance job is very good and just replacing the pistons will have little affect on it. Thus you can save a few hundred dollars on the rebuild. besides very few balance rs know how to balance flathead rods.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

when you dissemble these engines, make sure you keep the rods with the crankshafts. I say this to insure the balance of the crank asssy is not broken. The factory balance job is very good and just replacing the pistons will have little affect on it. Thus you can save a few hundred dollars on the rebuild. besides very few balance rs know how to balance flathead rods.

Thanks Ron, I will take lots of photos and have labels and a pen ready to go to keep everything in order. I have a bad memory so I HAVE to do these things!!

[gavinnz]

I have the first of many questions.... if I was to use a Ford Flathead gearbox that will bolt right up to my 1951 239 engine to drive my boat, using reverse, neutral and third (which would want to be 1:1 ratio). Also using a weak clutch with hand control on the gear lever?? I have one from the bus (off "the truck motor") to go pick up when I get the engines, but the seller says it's huge and maybe I could get something smaller?? Thoughts?

Were car and truck gearboxes even different when behind the 239?

[dwaynec]

I may be speaking out of turn here, but most of the boats that I know of have a two to one reduction gearing in the "transmission".

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by dwaynec

I may be speaking out of turn here, but most of the boats that I know of have a two to one reduction gearing in the "transmission".

Bigger slow displacement hulls use reduction gearboxes... speedboats with planing hulls use 1:1 forward gear. I have a marine trans that is 1:1 that I will sell as it's more period to use the Ford box. So all my shaft and prop calculations have been done on 1:1.

[JSeery]

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Originally Posted by gavinnz

I have the first of many questions.... if I was to use a Ford Flathead gearbox that will bolt right up to my 1951 239 engine to drive my boat, using reverse, neutral and third (which would want to be 1:1 ratio). Also using a weak clutch with hand control on the gear lever?? I have one from the bus (off "the truck motor") to go pick up when I get the engines, but the seller says it's huge and maybe I could get something smaller?? Thoughts?

Were car and truck gearboxes even different when behind the 239?

Both the clutch/pressure plate and the transmission from a truck would be larger and heavy. I would think you would want a small diameter light weight clutch setup and a passenger car transmission.

[cas3]

and, the truck trans will have a very low reverse, so you wont have much for brakes without the throttle being wide open. if you have a marine trans already, thats what i would be using

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by cas3

and, the truck trans will have a very low reverse, so you wont have much for brakes without the throttle being wide open. if you have a marine trans already, thats what i would be using

Brakes??

I could see how you you would think that... here is my reasoning for wanting to use a Ford flathead gearbox....

I have a Ford gearbox.
Low reverse is great! Slower the better for maneuvering a small boat.
It will bolt right up without expensive engineering for adapter plates and linkages.
I can sell the marine trans (which is too modern for this build) and put the money into the Flathead.
It's more likely what someone in New Zealand in the 1930-50's would have done and therefore more period authentic.
I have a bell housing and clutch parts that would work.
I would not have to worry about an oil cooler for the trans like you do with the hydraulic marine trans... with all it's clutches creating heat.

The only down side is that I would have to make a thrust bearing block to take for and aft forces from the prop that a car trans is not designed to absorb.

I hope that helps explain my thoughts.

[gavinnz]

Can some one help me id this bell housing? Seems bigger than all the Ford car ones I have seen on the net... the only one I did see that looked like this was a 51-52 Merc. Is it light or heavy truck??

[gavinnz]

I can answer my own question now... that is the standard bell housing from the "car engine"..... So not truck.

[alchemy]

Does the rusty lump engine have a dual pulley on the crank still? That is a nice part for the guys putting blowers on their motors and is kinda hard to find. Worth a couple coins. The dual pulley water pumps are easy to find, but the crank pulleys always disappear. The dual pulley for the generator is coveted too if that was around the pile.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by alchemy

Does the rusty lump engine have a dual pulley on the crank still? That is a nice part for the guys putting blowers on their motors and is kinda hard to find. Worth a couple coins. The dual pulley water pumps are easy to find, but the crank pulleys always disappear. The dual pulley for the generator is coveted too if that was around the pile.

I will check! Could be good for me to run extra pumps for marine use also!

[gavinnz]

I have spent the last 9 days reading everything I can about the Ford flathead V8 engines... steep learning curve I must say. After 9 days non stop I am now thinking and dreaming in cast iron!!

I have only just scratched the very top surface of the subject yet I have gained a real appreciation for what a following these engines have and the character they have which gives them such an attraction.

I am looking forward to getting into my engines and learning more when I get them to my workshop in a few weeks.

Thanks to those who have helped me learn.
Regards
Gavin
New Zealand

[Art Newland]

I have a model A tranny that's been converted for use in a boat. Forward and reverse with 1:1 only.

[gavinnz]

I went and picked up the two 8BA engines today, left the rust ball for another day... Not overall good news! The "truck engine" had bloody water inside the crankcase.... and the "car engine" has had a crack between the valve and cylinder repaired in the past with what looks like solder! So not the best start for the project... tomorrow when it's light again I will clean off the barrel surfaces of the truck engine and look for cracks... in the vain hope I don't find any.

[gavinnz]

Picked up a HUGE gearbox from the "truck engine" which came from a bus.... I think I can use the bell housing to attach a car gearbox?? Is it the same pattern?

[gavinnz]

Engine pictures.... the repaired crack....

[gavinnz]

More pics...

[gavinnz]

I have all the heads and the other inlet also, plus the car bell housing and clutches.
One bugger starter, no distributors or carbs could be found... but I did get a generator and a fan and few other small bits.

[gavinnz]

Just noticed that the truck engine has a iron front housing for the distributor and the car block as one in aluminium.... does that say anything at all??

[JSeery]

The bellhousing adapter on the truck transmission is commonly referred to as a "Hogshead". The block looks like it was "pinned" to me, which is the correct way to do the repair.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by JSeery

The bellhousing adapter on the truck transmission is commonly referred to as a "Hogshead". The block looks like it was "pinned" to me, which is the correct way to do the repair.

Cool, I thought it was pinned too when I looked harder... could be ok after all. Will a hogshead bolt to any earlier V8 car transmission?

[JSeery]

The hogshead is not needed to bolt the 59a era (or earlier) transmissions on. The bellhousing adapter is part of the transmission. Not sure this to correct on the car transmissions, I was thinking of the light pickup transmissions.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by JSeery

The hogshead is not needed to bolt the 59a era (or earlier) transmissions on. The bellhousing adapter is part of the transmission.

My question is with the 8BA blocks I have will the hogshead adapter that was on one engine for the truck gearbox, also be able to be used with a normal three speed trans from the early cars?
I am learning as I go, to clarify my question....

A trans that was bolted to an early engine, with the bellhousing build into the block.... will that trans bolt to my hogs head and line up with the hole and the clutch??

[JSeery]

The hogshead will only work for specific transmissions (trucks). You need a ring type adapter I believe, they come in both cast and stamped steel. The later transmissions use a different bellhousing.

[gavinnz]

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Thanks! that's great info. That one on the right is what came with the car engine without a trans... well this is leading me back to maybe using my hogshead and my marine trans and paying to make adapters to the flywheel of the ford... will cost a bit in outside machining costs (my lathe can't spin the diameter of the flywheel) but might be less trouble than converting a Ford box I don't have to marine use in the end.... and I looking into the history of my Borg Warner Velvet drive trans and they were made is various forms right back into the 1950's so it would be OK to fit in the boat and be reasonably authentic....

There is more than one way to skin a cat.... and I know that for a fact!

[Ol' Ron]

There is a post by a fellow by the name of Erney I think that shows all the stock bell housings used on Flathead engines. In the roadster I use a hogs adapters to at T-% trans. THis way I can use a late 8BA style or early 59 style engine, with no clutch or adapter problems, just bolt them in.

[gavinnz]

Engines are finally in my workshop and slowly coming apart so see what I have...
The "truck engine" has two sleeve replaced and a crack between the cylinder and the valve on one cylinder. Plus it has had water inside the bottom end I am yet to look at.


The "car engine" has no sleeves, repaired cracks on one bank and one visable unrepaired crack between the valve and cylinder and into the cylinder on the other bank. It is still on it's standard bore. No water/rust in the bottom end so far.


The "car engine" is at this stage looking like the best to repair, one sleeve and valve seat and fix the one unfixed crack and an over bore.


More to come as I get to the bottom ends!

[gavinnz]

Also my Canadian blocks have single numbers case in a few places...
The truck engine has "3" cast is on the block top centre just next to where the bell housing bolts on... the car engine as a "4" cast in that spot and at least one other place....
Could that indicate 1953 and 1954??

[gavinnz]

The bottom end of the "car engine" seems pretty good, no water damage, bearings are buggered but you would expect that. The main bearing shells still have Ford Made in Canada on the backs so I think they could be originals? Would go with the standard bores.. one piston had been replaced at some time.


Still trying to get the oil pump and cam out. Oil pump is REAL well stuck! Heat will be the next thing to try....

[gavinnz]

Oil pump out after some heat and leverage! Cam out. So the block is stripped except for the oil pump idler gear I cant get at with it on the engine stand.


Looks like two cracks to be repaired between cylinders and valves, three new sleeves, three valve seats, one thread insert for one head stud. Then I should have a good block to base my boat build around.


I will take it to the engine reconditioners (old guy, knows old engines) later in the week for a clean and crack test.... then I will know what is needed and I can plan from there.


Progress!

[gavinnz]

I have still not taken the engine to the reconditioners to be check for more cracks... I have found more myself! So basically the engine would need FOUR sleeves and three cracks repaired, two thread inserts for head studs and three valve seats...


SO I have decided to strip the truck block down and see if it will need less money/work to get to a good place. Right away I know it has one crack from barrel to valve. It is already 40 over and has two sleeves that I don't think will have enough meat to take a rebore.... so two new sleeves. The strip down will begin in the morning!! It will go faster now I know more of what I am doling... Fingers crossed for not to many surprises....

[Ziggster]

Looking at this, I feel blessed that my C69 block was only CAN$100 has has no issues other than an inconsequential crack between one of head bolts threads and water jacket, a broken bolt, and a poorly installed heli-coil. It passed the pressure test and is heading for a cleaning next week, and finally the machining. There are still flathead available here locally in the CAN$500 range. Is it worthwhile to ship something like that to New Zealand, especially if a seacan was used with a dozen plus? Could be a good business for someone so inclined?

[oldredford]

I have the Mitchell overdrive in my forty coupe. No speed indication. I removed the cable from the gearbox and turned the plastic gear and no movement at the other end. Anybody else have this problem? Mitchell is closed on SATURDAY. I will call them Monday...

[gavinnz]

Truck engine stripped. The water that poured from the sump when I picked it up seems to have done very little damage. All the crank journals are clean and shiny.
Still just the one crack evident. All the valve seats look good.


Last night I made a special tool on the lathe to be a push fit in the stud holes in the head with a 3/8 hole down the centre so today I am going to start the process of drilling out the studs I broke!! I heated them red hot, used wax... did all the things I had read about that would help and still broke a few. Nothing I can fix!


So this engine block seems a better proposition.... at this stage it seems like one crack to fix, two sleeves (to replace older sleeves that are to small and look badly fitted to me) and a big overbore to clear the rust pitting in the bores. Fingers crossed for drilling out the studs!

[gavinnz]

Well I am feeling quite smug tonight! I have managed to drill out and clean up all the broken head studs and all the threads are good. Really happy about that state of affairs.

[tubman]

Congratulations! Being an "8BA guy", I've never had the "pleasure" of experiencing that particular exercise. Now, for some real progress!

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by tubman

Congratulations! Being an "8BA guy", I've never had the "pleasure" of experiencing that particular exercise. Now, for some real progress!

Yes this engine has me a little confused.... It has the 8ba side mag and no built in bell housing, but came with studs... Its a Canadian build truck motor.

I think i read somewhere they had studs for the early side mag engines? Could well be wrong... I am still learning.

[alchemy]

You say "side mag", but that is not a magneto. It's a distributor. No magnets in there.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by alchemy

You say "side mag", but that is not a magneto. It's a distributor. No magnets in there.

Yes, that was a brain fade.... it was about 4am when I wrote that!

[gavinnz]

I have the truck block fully stripped. I turned up a tool on the lathe to remove and install the cam bearings. I have a question. I have removed the fuel pump pushrod and I will be using an electric pump so it will not be going back. I have read that the hole the pushrod goes through has to be plugged to maintain oil pressure... My question is about the sleeve I can see in the hole... Should I take that out also or just plug the top of the sleeve??

[Tinker]

you can turn it. if you prefer. Bushing has a hole, if it's turned to block it'll be fine. But some say not to worry either. You can tap it also and run a bolt down the bushing too.


why go with a electric pump?

[JSeery]

I like to install a plug. Easy to make, it needs to be a tight fit.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I like to install a plug. Easy to make, it needs to be a tight fit.

Thanks, I can knock one of those up on the lathe!

[gavinnz]

Not heard back from the cleaning and crack testing yet, so I have turned my attention to other lose bits. I removed both ring gears, cleaned them and found the under all the dirt and crap one was in really good nick. So I cleaned it up even more and shrunk it back onto the flywheel I modified to take the marine shock damper.

Looked at my starter which still turns, but how I don't know as the housing is pitted with rust over half way through the thickness of the metal! I am looking for a rebuildable starter locally.

Then I looked at the water pumps.... I want to use the bodies of the truck pumps as they have great mounting points for the engine in the boat. But they have the wide pullies. I have one narrow pulley from the car engine so I need another to make a set.

So still making progress.

[Ol' Ron]

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You could install the rear cam bearing 90 degs off and forget the plug. I do that on my full flow filter system.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

You could install the rear cam bearing 90 degs off and forget the plug. I do that on my full flow filter system.

That is a good approach if you never see the possibility of reverting to a manual fuel pump at a future date. If that is a possibility, the plug is easy to remove by just taking the intake off.

[tubman]

I'd make the plug. I love doing little lathe projects like this. It makes me fell like a real machinist (at least for a little while).

[dumb person]

If the starter is pitted, that's not a problem as long as the coils inside are, or can be insulated. Mine has pitting about that deep.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by dumb person

If the starter is pitted, that's not a problem as long as the coils inside are, or can be insulated. Mine has pitting about that deep.

I had thought that if the outside was so rusted that the inside would be toast, but maybe I need to take a closer look inside and see if it can be salvaged.

[gavinnz]

My flathead had a bloody good day parts wise today! The new adjustable lifters arrived from the USA.... Two divers helmet dizzys and ht lead pipes arrived.... Thanks Brain! And I went to see another chap and came away with a 3 bolt front plate, early cam to suit the divers helmet dizzy, factory oil filter, dip stick,

[gavinnz]

I fitted the cam in my spare mock up engine, then went to fit the dizzy and the thing will not fit!!! No one told me that the divers helmet dizzy will not fit with 8ba narrow crank pulley! So I will go and get the wide pulley back from the engine reconditioners tomorrow and see if that fits...... Nothing is ever simple....

[gavinnz]

Boat mock up taking shape. Trans mounted, angle guessed at....

[gavinnz]

The boat motor had another good week. Weiand 400 heads arrived. A set of marine wet exhaust manifolds and a rebuilt 1 1/6 carb. Plus the pulley saga in another thread.

Back to thinking of a cam now. The 8BA cam already has 8mm so it should regrind well with plenty of meat. Thinking about an Isky 88 grind at this stage with 0.332 or 8.43 lift and 276 advertised duration, 226 at 0.5. I think it will compliment the high compression head and the 0.125 over bore well? Thoughts?

Sticking with a single 1 1/6 carb now. I have cut down a 1935 manifold (it had been damaged and welded so it was a good candidate to modify for marine use) to get more deck clearance and eliminated the exhaust running thought the manifold.

[gavinnz]

Heads....

[gavinnz]

Heads underside...

[gavinnz]

Manifolds.....

[gavinnz]

And carb on work in progress manifold....

[tubman]

I'd wait on the Isky "88" cam until some more folks chime in. I've never used that particular cam, but I seem to remember that it is not a whole lot better than stock. This is just a preliminary comment, so some more information would be helpful. I have no experience with a flathead in marine use, but I have a whole lot with SBC's in Mercruisers. I think you may want a "marine grind", which (in an SBC, at least) has completely different characteristics than an automotive street cam.

[Ol' Ron]

The Iaky 88 cam doesn't have those kind of numbers if my memory is correct. If the boat is for racing then a long duration cam is the right one. However if you want a runabout then a cam with 235 at 050" lift would be better. Yhe size of the prop will determine the RPN of the engine. I ran an L100 in a 258 ci engine and it preformed very well.

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by tubman

I think you may want a "marine grind", which (in an SBC, at least) has completely different characteristics than an automotive street cam.

"Marine grind" is not really the right term, "marine grinds" is more to the point. It's like saying "car grind" there are as many different applications in boats as there are in cars.
My boat is small at 16 feet. Planning hull. Relatively light weight. Two person only. No skiing, no towing. Vintage speedboat for mostly flat water, lake and river boat.

It's style of cam would be different to a 25 foot 6 person ski boat. I don't need the low end torque to dig a heavy boat out of the hole and onto the plan while towing a skier.

[Ziggster]

Speaking of antique boats, this has been advertised locally when I search for "flathead". Years back I saw one at a guys place up north with a Chrysler 413. It was a masterpiece of woodworking.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-powerboat-mo...ationFlag=true

[gavinnz]

Taking shape... Worked on mounting the spark arester tonight and working out the in and outs of the expansion tank. Still got to shorten the spark aresster for deck clearance.
Looking more like a motor every day.

[gavinnz]

Another angle...

[gavinnz]

And the other side....

[JSeery]

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How about oil issues? I would think that the rear rods/crank throws could be hitting the oil in the pan. Also would have some concern on the oil pickup becoming uncovered. Might want to consider some baffles of some type for the pickup. Looks like a good candidate for a dry sump!

[gavinnz]

Originally Posted by JSeery

How about oil issues? I would think that the rear rods/crank throws could be hitting the oil in the pan. Also would have some concern on the oil pickup becoming uncovered. Might want to consider some baffles of some type for the pickup. Looks like a good candidate for a dry sump!

Yes good points. The first step at least will be bending the oil pickup to be parallel to the bottom of the boat. Next step if needed will be extending the sump, keeping the same point where it's deepest and going forward and back to get more volume and a flat pick up area and to lower the oil height away from the crank. Just not sure what is needed yet.
The engine is only at 12 degrees so some roads would be that steep.

[Ol' Ron]

ON our Hydro engines I mad some adapters for the carbs that leveled them. I also used 2110 carbs so I had to bore the throttle bores out abit.