Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-30-2014, 09:18 PM   #1
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

IMG_8917.JPG

IMG_8919.JPG

IMG_8918.JPG

IMG_8933.JPG

IMG_8939.JPG

IMG_8948.JPG

IMG_8951.JPG

IMG_8947.JPG

IMG_8956.JPG

IMG_8963.JPG

IMG_8968.JPG

IMG_8943.JPG

IMG_8959.JPG

IMG_8937.JPGSince Spring is right around the corner now is the best time to get your cars ready.
I've been noticing the recent posts about cracks and bad gaskets,babbitt issues and so on.
I figured now more than ever would be a good time to get the word out.
Since there are always new people coming into the old car hobby I wanted to share some of the things we as engine rebuilders have been asked over the years.


What got me thinking of this is as follows.

We received an engine today done recently by others in the North East, has 1200 miles on it and customer complained of excessive oil loss out the back and through the breather. said he had to take it back twice to have the babbitt repoured but the leak still existed.
He then brought the engine down to us and we documented what we found.
Poor work ,bad babbitting,dirt,inferior quality all around on and on.

Since seeing this and the anquish of the customer Spending $3000 dollars and getting a 1200 mile engine doesn't seem like a good return on an investment to me.

I have compiled a list of things to ask your future engine rebuilder.

1)Do you do the work in house and if not who does?
2)how do you clean the engine and parts?
3) do you magnaflux block and parts,pressure test?
4)what babbitt do you use?
5)what machine work gets done on the block and why?
6)do you replace the valve seats and how many?
7) what parts of the block do you remachine?
8)do you balance the engine?
9)what parts are provided in your engine rebuild?
10)do you resurface the flywheel? there is a exact mesurement of steps.
11)do you regrind the cam and what grinds do you offer?
12)do you rebuild the oil pump?
13)do you replace all the hardware int he engine studs,bolts ,nuts?
14) do you repaint the engine is it factory color?
15)do you install adjustable lifters?
16)what makes you different than the others?
17) do you have references you could provide?
18)how long does it take you to finish the engine?
19)If the block,flywheel housing ,head is cracked how do you repair?
20 what is the warranty?
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 09:29 PM   #2
700rpm
Senior Member
 
700rpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,317
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

All good questions, but another one I always ask is, "How long will you need to finish the job?" and the answer is always wrong!
__________________
Ray Horton, Portland, OR


As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

Last edited by 700rpm; 01-30-2014 at 11:06 PM.
700rpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 01-30-2014, 09:32 PM   #3
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,455
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Wow, thanks for posting Mr. J & M.

But it was cheap!
Kohnke Rebabbitting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 09:42 PM   #4
johnsor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Spooner, Wisconsin
Posts: 242
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

A great checklist. I wish I knew how to print it out as I may never be able to find this post again when I could use it. I guess I'll have to write it out in long hand, which I will do.
johnsor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 10:02 PM   #5
AL in NY
Senior Member
 
AL in NY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern Upstate New York
Posts: 929
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

J & M: if you're saying some of us aren't smart enough to ask these types of questions when spending $3000.00 plus for an engine rebuild, what makes you think they would know the answers to those questions. Maybe a post answering those questions is in order.
__________________
AL in NY
AL in NY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 10:32 PM   #6
Gary WA
Senior Member
 
Gary WA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Clinton,WA/Whidbey Island
Posts: 3,243
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsor View Post
A great checklist. I wish I knew how to print it out as I may never be able to find this post again when I could use it. I guess I'll have to write it out in long hand, which I will do.
go up top of thread start and click on thread tools to printable thread and print
__________________
www.whidbeymodelaclub.com
Gary WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 11:04 PM   #7
SteveB31
Senior Member
 
SteveB31's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Englewood, Colorado
Posts: 1,290
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

and.....

What clearance do you have in the bearings.
What clearence for the pistons to cylinder bore.
Do you clean in the water jackets.
What machine do you use to deck the block ( I know a guy that uses a belt sander)
Do you weigh the pistons
Do you weigh the rods
How often do you check the accuracy of the line boring machine
SteveB31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 11:56 PM   #8
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,052
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

What are the answers to those questions?
Just asking the questions means little if one does not know the answers.

Why even mention the north east? There are dozens that "do" engine work. Are you saying all the re-builders in the NE don't know what they are doing? I feel the post would have been better if you left that part out as it has nothing to do with the important part of the post.

It's not just you, it's anyone that says "a big vendor", "a little vendor", unless someone is willing to mention the name of the vendor leave it out.
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

Last edited by Mike V. Florida; 01-31-2014 at 01:34 AM.
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 02:10 AM   #9
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,455
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
What are the answers to those questions?
Just asking the questions means little if one does not know the answers.

Why even mention the north east? There are dozens that "do" engine work. Are you saying all the re-builders in the NE don't know what they are doing? I feel the post would have been better if you left that part out as it has nothing to do with the important part of the post.

It's not just you, it's anyone that says "a big vendor", "a little vendor", unless someone is willing to mention the name of the vendor leave it out.


If the question is asked and the builder has no answer or gives some kind of answer, then you can say he had no answer, or if they gave an answer you could reserch the right or suitable answer you would be satisfied with.

It is not up to the builder to give any information out for who did the engine last. That should only come to the owner.

Mike, who appointed you Post police anyway.
Kohnke Rebabbitting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 03:16 AM   #10
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,052
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
If the question is asked and the builder has no answer or gives some kind of answer, then you can say he had no answer, or if they gave an answer you could reserch the right or suitable answer you would be satisfied with.

It is not up to the builder to give any information out for who did the engine last. That should only come to the owner.

Mike, who appointed you Post police anyway.
Would it not be easier for a known good re-builder to to simply give what he (you) consider a good answer than to have someone with no or little engine re-building experience research the right or suitable answer? Some of the questions have obvious answers but other like number 1, are we looking for the answer to be everything is done in house? Should we be suspicious if the answer is some/all is farmed out, do we then contact the people that do that work and ask them the same questions.

You and J and M know the answers, you live the answers, we have seem photos of your work we have read from people that have had work done by you and others on the forum. We might not know the answers or even have the wrong answers based of builders of questionable quality.
Are there BS answers that sound good to the casual owner but you guys would point out right away as BS?

And I agree 100% with your statement that where the engine was rebuilt should be kept by the owner. I'm not sure I would even tell the present re-builder if it were me that had the engine as I don't see what difference would it make to the new guy. My comment was the I believe that any "narrowing" comments like "look at what this NE engine builder did" serves no real purpose. "Look at what this engine re-builder did" works just fine.

As for your comment about post police, I'm confused? Did I have J and M banned from the site? Did I have his post removed? I have read posts by you that disagreed with the information given in the post and neither I or anyone else questioned your right to your opinion. Nobody said anything about you being "post police" when you give comments. If you can give your opinion so can the rest of us.

I think it is a great post and only want more. I voted it max stars. I printed it out for future use by me and members of our club.

Send me an e-mail if you like We don't need to go back and forth on this here.

This is a good post and I'm sorry if I made you or J and M feel other wise!
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:10 AM   #11
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Would it not be easier for a known good re-builder to to simply give what he (you) consider a good answer than to have someone with no or little engine re-building experience research the right or suitable answer? Some of the questions have obvious answers but other like number 1, are we looking for the answer to be everything is done in house? Should we be suspicious if the answer is some/all is farmed out, do we then contact the people that do that work and ask them the same questions.

You and J and M know the answers, you live the answers, we have seem photos of your work we have read from people that have had work done by you and others on the forum. We might not know the answers or even have the wrong answers based of builders of questionable quality.
Are there BS answers that sound good to the casual owner but you guys would point out right away as BS?

And I agree 100% with your statement that where the engine was rebuilt should be kept by the owner. I'm not sure I would even tell the present re-builder if it were me that had the engine as I don't see what difference would it make to the new guy. My comment was the I believe that any "narrowing" comments like "look at what this NE engine builder did" serves no real purpose. "Look at what this engine re-builder did" works just fine.

As for your comment about post police, I'm confused? Did I have J and M banned from the site? Did I have his post removed? I have read posts by you that disagreed with the information given in the post and neither I or anyone else questioned your right to your opinion. Nobody said anything about you being "post police" when you give comments. If you can give your opinion so can the rest of us.

I think it is a great post and only want more. I voted it max stars. I printed it out for future use by me and members of our club.

Send me an e-mail if you like We don't need to go back and forth on this here.

This is a good post and I'm sorry if I made you or J and M feel other wise!

If you give out the right answers, the bad builder would know what to say.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:18 AM   #12
zzlegend
Senior Member
 
zzlegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Reseda, Calif.
Posts: 2,171
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
If you give out the right answers, the bad builder would know what to say.
Very good point George.
zzlegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:44 AM   #13
BrianBurkert
Senior Member
 
BrianBurkert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fleetwood, PA
Posts: 407
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

I like that modification on the rear main cap. I wonder why Ford didn't do that. Oh, I guess maybe because it doesn't work.
BrianBurkert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 09:16 AM   #14
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

If you give out the right answers, the bad builder would know what to say. "quote"

We were on the other side of this conversation when my brother and I were younger.
When we asked the right questions regarding our Model A engine rebuild the rebuilder,now out of business basically blew us off.

I try to answer every question the customer asks at a personal level, not to talk over a person's head.
We send pictures of work done and explain what and why.
Not all of our customers are right next door. It's a good feature of the internet to send pictures of work being done.

To reply to the subject of "North East" rebuilder; you're correct as it could of been anywhere in the country to have this work done.
However this one was poorly done up here.


The statement I am making is for people to ask questions and listen for the answers. If you're not sure ask for them to explain it.

Just recently the poster from Maryland sent a rebuildable engine to a rebuilder and got two bad engines in return.

Had he asked what how and why I'm sure the outcome would of been alot better.
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 09:22 AM   #15
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveB31 View Post
and.....

What clearance do you have in the bearings. .0015"
What clearence for the pistons to cylinder bore. .003"
Do you clean in the water jackets. Thermal clean and shot peen
What machine do you use to deck the block ( I know a guy that uses a belt sander) AMC CM 1200
Do you weigh the pistons Yes all weighed to .1 tenth of a gram.
Do you weigh the rods Yes big end/small end,total weight.1 tenth of gram.
Same goes for crank and clutch and flywheel.
How often do you check the accuracy of the line boring machine
Our AMC boring mill is 2005 and I check it once a year,I haven't had to adjust it yet.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8133.JPG (51.0 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8495.JPG (67.4 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8183.JPG (43.7 KB, 81 views)
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 09:47 AM   #16
Rex_A_Lott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 790
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Thanks for this post, and the discussion it is sure to generate. I hope to learn a lot.
I think sometimes a customer is his own worst enemy. They have X number of dollars to spend, and they call around until they find someone who will do it for the price they have in mind. To them the best way is the cheapest way. They show up at builders door with a pile of parts and a few dollars and say " I'm not building a race car, just build me a good runner, and do the best you can with what I've got." And then complain about the results.
I hope in this discussion the pros will point out:
1-what is the preferred way and why its worth the extra money.
2- I've seen this done for less money and it will work
3- No way in Hell will I do this if my name's attached to it.
Thanks guys
Rex_A_Lott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 10:08 AM   #17
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

I hope in this discussion the pros will point out: That's the whole idea of this post is to get people to think.
1-what is the preferred way and why its worth the extra money.
2- I've seen this done for less money and it will work:
3- No way in Hell will I do this if my name's attached to it.
Thanks guys

You're absolutely correct. I have had people come and say just do the babbitt and not crank . I send them on their way as "it's only a model A" doesn't cut it here.
our name is on it and I want our customers to come back in a good way.
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 12:01 PM   #18
d.j. moordigian
Senior Member
 
d.j. moordigian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fresno, Ca.
Posts: 3,610
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

I don't believe it's the charged amount that makes a good / great engine,
it's the the person doing the work.

50% of the life of the engine is do to cleanliness when it's built. The rest
is do too proper machine work, procedure, and quality parts.

The photos from J and M Machine, sure tell the story,....to the trained eye.
d.j. moordigian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 01:55 PM   #19
PC/SR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 1,183
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Great Post. As for providing the answers, the owner should do some basic research before engaging a rebuilder so he/she has some idea of what is being done, how and why. An informed consumer is the best guarantee of getting a job done right. There are some good basic books on engine rebuilding, and there is Nothing about rebuilding an engine that is not on this forum.
PC/SR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 02:20 PM   #20
JJCunningham
Member
 
JJCunningham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 37
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J and M Machine View Post
Just recently the poster from Maryland sent a rebuildable engine to a rebuilder and got two bad engines in return.

Had he asked what how and why I'm sure the outcome would of been alot better.
Speaking as that poster from Maryland, I can say this list is fantastic! I wish I had known to ask those questions before being taken for a ride on two bad engines - a $7,000 mistake (or perhaps "learning experience").

Thanks for providing this list of questions - perhaps it would be wise to ask tech experts at the club for the answers when interviewing rebuilders - that way you can know the answers in advance.
JJCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:54 PM   #21
ursus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,117
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

I prefer to let the machinist start the conversation to get a sense of his attitude and approach to the work. This has saved me the bother of asking a lot of questions if the initial commentary reveals that I am better of thanking him and taking away my piece before he has a chance to do a lot of expensive buggery. I have learned from bad experience to pay attention to the little things that can add up to a lot of regret later on.
ursus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:45 PM   #22
tbirdtbird
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: inside your RAM
Posts: 3,134
Default Re: questions to ask engine rebuilder.!

let us know how you make out
__________________
'31 180A

Last edited by tbirdtbird; 02-03-2017 at 10:47 AM.
tbirdtbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:04 PM.