The Ford Barn

mikesp · 09-30-2013, 01:01 AM

I was helping my Dad work on his 46 Ford, which he says has a 100HP engine in it, but I don't have any details on the engine identification - I was not even thinking about the possibility of it not having the original engine.
The reason I even bring that up is that it has the glass bowl fuel pump and in the diagrams I looked at and replacement parts, they show a non-glass bowl version.

That said, he has the glass bowl version and it's not pumping gas. The pump is off and disassembled and the seals and diaphragm look fine. Dad thinks it is the rocker arm that the fuel pushrod from the engine actuates having a worn hole where it pivots. If indeed it is supposed to be round, it is worn. The problem is the hole looks like a perfect oval shape like it was made that way.
Pics:

We found this repair kit that includes the rocker arm, but it's in 2 pieces? If I was to guess, it looks like it is spot welded together - is that right?
http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1073546/

What would be the determining factor to know what fuel pump should be on the car? Engine type? Is there a guide to identifying engines?

Terry,OH · 09-30-2013, 06:18 AM

The arm is two pieces they slip together and are held together by the hinge pin (no welding necessary). I do not have enough experience on this style of pump (with the glass filter bowl), all of the early styles (without a glass filter bowl) have a round hole and not oblong. Excessive play on the hinge pin could cause loss of fuel pressure and volume. As a guess the hole is excessively work from lack of oil this caused the pump to fail.

ken ct · 09-30-2013, 07:18 AM

Ford had both styles of arms,some had the oval hole and some had the 2 pc with a bushing through the 2 pcs. The glass bowl pump didn't come out till 47. It will work fine on any pre 47 but not correct. You say you "FOUND" a kit was this an old kit like 20-40 yrs old?? diaphragm was not made for todays gas. DONT USE IT.It will fail shortly. Call me I can give you more info. 1-203-260-5945 cell. ken ct Everything else in the kit is good to use.The small gaskets can be soaked in water to soften them up.If your pump does NOT have a small bracket w/2 small screws holding the valves in it CANNOT be REBUILT. The valves will be pressed in and cannot be replaced. ken ct.

Terry,OH · 09-30-2013, 07:35 AM

Ken would know for sure!

Mike51Merc · 09-30-2013, 07:47 AM

That hole is too perfect to be from wear.

G.M. · 09-30-2013, 07:54 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Three main problems for not pumping. Very small hole in the flex line, bad gasket seal on fuel bowl, to much play in the rocker arm or stretched diaphragm. G.M.

Mart · 09-30-2013, 10:33 AM

From what I can see, that pump looks to be in nice condition with hardly any wear and no discolouration. It would appear the maker has substituted a hinging arm for an arm with an intended amount of freeplay in it. I the pump has to be able to maintain full stroke at the pushrod end while self regulating to somewhere between full stroke and no travel at all at the diaphragm end. Hence the lost motion mechanism, hinged lever in one case and slotted pivot in the other.

Other than concerns about the material suitability, it looks like it should work.

Mart.

mikesp · 10-03-2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

The arm is two pieces they slip together and are held together by the hinge pin (no welding necessary).

Makes sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken ct

Ford had both styles of arms,some had the oval hole and some had the 2 pc with a bushing through the 2 pcs. The glass bowl pump didn't come out till 47. It will work fine on any pre 47 but not correct. You say you "FOUND" a kit was this an old kit like 20-40 yrs old?? diaphragm was not made for todays gas. DONT USE IT.It will fail shortly. Call me I can give you more info. 1-203-260-5945 cell. ken ct Everything else in the kit is good to use.The small gaskets can be soaked in water to soften them up.If your pump does NOT have a small bracket w/2 small screws holding the valves in it CANNOT be REBUILT. The valves will be pressed in and cannot be replaced. ken ct.

Thanks for the info - I'll have to check on the valves. When I say I found a kit, I meant I found a new one online and ordered from here: http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1073546/ I don't know if its an old kit or something that would work with today's gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.M.

Three main problems for not pumping. Very small hole in the flex line, bad gasket seal on fuel bowl, to much play in the rocker arm or stretched diaphragm. G.M.

I'll double check these things

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

From what I can see, that pump looks to be in nice condition with hardly any wear and no discolouration. It would appear the maker has substituted a hinging arm for an arm with an intended amount of freeplay in it. I the pump has to be able to maintain full stroke at the pushrod end while self regulating to somewhere between full stroke and no travel at all at the diaphragm end. Hence the lost motion mechanism, hinged lever in one case and slotted pivot in the other.

Ah, that makes sense if the 2-part arm hinges that would make sense why the non-hinging arm we have has an oval.
I think my Dad believes the oval is wear in the arm and not by design. I hope the hinging arm is compatible with the pump housing and pin he has. At any rate I think more troubleshooting is needed because I don't think the not-pumping is the oval arm's fault

ken ct · 10-03-2013, 08:26 PM

From Mac's I would NOT use the diaphragm [quality very questionable] From the pic I cant make out the bracket with the 2 small screws that hold the valves in. The valves in the kit will not fit in the holes.The valves in the top 1/2 of the pump and looks like they are pressed in. The big spring is known to be too strong causing over pressure spec. Why don't people ask questions before they buy something. ken ct.The oval hole is made that way its not worn.

mikesp · 10-03-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken ct

From Mac's I would NOT use the diaphragm [quality very questionable] From the pic I cant make out the bracket with the 2 small screws that hold the valves in. The valves in the kit will not fit in the holes.The valves in the top 1/2 of the pump and looks like they are pressed in. The big spring is known to be too strong causing over pressure spec. Why don't people ask questions before they buy something. ken ct.The oval hole is made that way its not worn.

I'll be going over there tomorrow morning to help him with some other car stuff, so I will look at it. Honestly the diaphragm looked really good to me - like it wasn't even that old. I didn't get involved until he took everything apart so I am starting from the first pic.
The big spring - Are you referring to the one in the rebuild kit?

All we know about the car is that it was my great-uncles and he drove it for a few years 2004-08 and it's been sitting a few years since he died. Another family member has been trying to get it to run for the last year or so and then he died recently (maybe I shouldn't offer to help

) Supposedly it would start but die when you tried to increase rpms. My dad rebuilt the carburator, then realized he had a fuel pump issue. He says he can use a bulb syringe and get fuel from the line from the tank, but the glass bowl was not filling, nor any gas getting to the carb.

mikesp · 10-03-2013, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken ct

From Mac's I would NOT use the diaphragm [quality very questionable]

Is that place good for anything? Where is a better online parts source?

JWL · 10-04-2013, 06:04 AM

I have used Mac's fuelpump kits and never had a problem. In fact I rebuilt an old pump yesterday and everything worked perfectly. The Mac's kit in one of my cars has been there since the year 2002. So, what is the quality question?

Charlie ny · 10-04-2013, 06:30 AM

There is a random quality problem with their diaphragms. Some are acceptable some are most assuredly not. My preference in f/p arms is the round hole bushed type.
Charlie ny

ken ct · 10-04-2013, 06:49 AM

Totally agree Charlie,and the rocker arms can be swapped to the bushing type if wanted. I prefer that type also."great minds think alike" LOL see you at Hershey hope NO rain on tues setup day.Tell Alice to drive safe. ken ct.

mikesp · 10-05-2013, 09:27 PM

Thanks for the info. We got the car started and drove it!
Dad did use the rebuild kit diaphragm for better or worse. We had to prime the glass bowl before it started pumping. The starter really turns over the engine slowly.
It drives ok, the steering takes some muscle and it hesitates a little on acceleration. All things Dad can work on.

09-30-2013, 01:01 AM	#1
mikesp Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 5	Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? I was helping my Dad work on his 46 Ford, which he says has a 100HP engine in it, but I don't have any details on the engine identification - I was not even thinking about the possibility of it not having the original engine. The reason I even bring that up is that it has the glass bowl fuel pump and in the diagrams I looked at and replacement parts, they show a non-glass bowl version. That said, he has the glass bowl version and it's not pumping gas. The pump is off and disassembled and the seals and diaphragm look fine. Dad thinks it is the rocker arm that the fuel pushrod from the engine actuates having a worn hole where it pivots. If indeed it is supposed to be round, it is worn. The problem is the hole looks like a perfect oval shape like it was made that way. Pics: We found this repair kit that includes the rocker arm, but it's in 2 pieces? If I was to guess, it looks like it is spot welded together - is that right? http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...0R3CHL1073546/ What would be the determining factor to know what fuel pump should be on the car? Engine type? Is there a guide to identifying engines?

09-30-2013, 07:18 AM	#3
ken ct BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: stratford,ct Posts: 5,971	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? Ford had both styles of arms,some had the oval hole and some had the 2 pc with a bushing through the 2 pcs. The glass bowl pump didn't come out till 47. It will work fine on any pre 47 but not correct. You say you "FOUND" a kit was this an old kit like 20-40 yrs old?? diaphragm was not made for todays gas. DONT USE IT.It will fail shortly. Call me I can give you more info. 1-203-260-5945 cell. ken ct Everything else in the kit is good to use.The small gaskets can be soaked in water to soften them up.If your pump does NOT have a small bracket w/2 small screws holding the valves in it CANNOT be REBUILT. The valves will be pressed in and cannot be replaced. ken ct.

09-30-2013, 07:35 AM	#4
Terry,OH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,743	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? Ken would know for sure!

09-30-2013, 07:47 AM	#5
Mike51Merc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Pennsylvania Posts: 1,582	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? That hole is too perfect to be from wear.

09-30-2013, 07:54 AM	#6
G.M. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida and Penna. Posts: 4,471	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Three main problems for not pumping. Very small hole in the flex line, bad gasket seal on fuel bowl, to much play in the rocker arm or stretched diaphragm. G.M. __________________ www.fordcollector.com

09-30-2013, 10:33 AM	#7
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? From what I can see, that pump looks to be in nice condition with hardly any wear and no discolouration. It would appear the maker has substituted a hinging arm for an arm with an intended amount of freeplay in it. I the pump has to be able to maintain full stroke at the pushrod end while self regulating to somewhere between full stroke and no travel at all at the diaphragm end. Hence the lost motion mechanism, hinged lever in one case and slotted pivot in the other. Other than concerns about the material suitability, it looks like it should work. Mart.

10-03-2013, 08:26 PM	#9
ken ct BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: stratford,ct Posts: 5,971	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? From Mac's I would NOT use the diaphragm [quality very questionable] From the pic I cant make out the bracket with the 2 small screws that hold the valves in. The valves in the kit will not fit in the holes.The valves in the top 1/2 of the pump and looks like they are pressed in. The big spring is known to be too strong causing over pressure spec. Why don't people ask questions before they buy something. ken ct.The oval hole is made that way its not worn.

10-04-2013, 06:04 AM	#12
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? I have used Mac's fuelpump kits and never had a problem. In fact I rebuilt an old pump yesterday and everything worked perfectly. The Mac's kit in one of my cars has been there since the year 2002. So, what is the quality question?

10-04-2013, 06:30 AM	#13
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? There is a random quality problem with their diaphragms. Some are acceptable some are most assuredly not. My preference in f/p arms is the round hole bushed type. Charlie ny

10-04-2013, 06:49 AM	#14
ken ct BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: stratford,ct Posts: 5,971	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? Totally agree Charlie,and the rocker arms can be swapped to the bushing type if wanted. I prefer that type also."great minds think alike" LOL see you at Hershey hope NO rain on tues setup day.Tell Alice to drive safe. ken ct.

10-05-2013, 09:27 PM	#15
mikesp Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 5	Re: Is the fuel pump rocker arm supposed to look like this? Thanks for the info. We got the car started and drove it! Dad did use the rebuild kit diaphragm for better or worse. We had to prime the glass bowl before it started pumping. The starter really turns over the engine slowly. It drives ok, the steering takes some muscle and it hesitates a little on acceleration. All things Dad can work on.