Who designed he Model T engine

[Ol' Ron]

I read some where that the T engine was built by the Dodge brothers for a water pump. I was interested in what other parts Ford used to put the first model T's on the road. Where did he get the in closed axle? and planetary transmission? I realize Ford was a brilliant man, but, this was something totally different than his last projects. I was watching the car that built America, and have read most of the books about him. Be interesting to find out how it all came together. I had a 23/4 T PU, and it was original. It was done by DR David Harvey. Thanks
Ol' Ron

[redmodelt]

The Dodge Brothers made castings and forgings for Ford under contact till about 1914. The engine/transmission/flywheel magneto was designed by H. Ford and a group of his employees the DB were not involved. While the first engines did have a water pump, the engine was never designed as a water pump, it was a car engine from the start. The enclosed rear end was used on his earlier models and the concept of the planetary transmission was used on a number of other makes along with his earlier cars. The big thing was: everything was enclosed, the engine and transmission shared the same oil, had a removable head and built in power supply for the ignition, no clashing of straight cut gears in the transmission. I am not handy with all the names of the people involved.

[Ol' Ron]

Thank you very much, that clears up allot. You can never tell where all these stories come from. I remember recharging the magnets in the flywheel with a bunch of batteries and a compass . Never had one apart, but it ran very well.

[40 Deluxe]

There are a lot of youtube videos of various pre-'T' Ford models such as the A, K, N, and S. The K was a 6 cylinder. All before 1908.

[Ol' Ron]

I was in Hershey back in the 70 's where a fellow had an "N" for sale, I think. It was also a 6 cyl. He said he had allot of transmission trouble with it. I always thought that was a good reason to use the planatory unit.. Be nice to know more about the early cars.

[stevests]

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A 6 cylinder Ford would have been a "K" model - big car !

[redmodelt]

A 6 cylinder non K car was talked about a couple of times on the Model T Ford Club forum, I think it was a N model. It was done as an experiment by Ford(?) so there is at least one kicking around, it could have been the same car. I looked but could not find the string talking about the N.

[Ol' Ron]

an another mistry. I might have been wrong, I just thought it was an "N", He didn't have the original transmission in it, That might e a clue.

[29spcoupe]

The N was a 4 cylinder car. I thin it was 15 hp. Considering how light the car was, it would go pretty fast (40mph). The Model K was six cylinders and was somewhat of a failure due to the planetary transmission. Planetary trannys worked well in small, light cars, but did not perform well in heavy cars. Ford blamed the failure of the Model K on the six cylinders instead of the planetary transmission. This is the reason Ford Motor Company did not make another six cylinder car until after Henry's death. John

[pj's junkers]

Ford came out with it's next 6 cyl in 1941.

[redmodelt]

There is a regular poster over on the Model T Ford Club of Americas forum that does not seem to have any problems with the planatary in his Model K.

Re; The Model K was six cylinders and was somewhat of a failure due to the planetary transmission. Planetary trannys worked well in small, light cars, but did not perform well in heavy cars. Ford blamed the failure of the Model K on the six cylinders instead of the planetary transmission.

The Model K was not a failure, it was a good car and had good sales. The expensive K was not the route H. Ford wanted to go. He wanted a lite car that the masses could buy. When the 32 came out, most cars at the time had 6's so he gave them 2 more in a low price range. At that time Chevrolet was running a 6 and was taking the sales lead.

[40 Deluxe]

The 6 cylinder Model K had 405 cu. in. and made 40 HP. One youtube video shows one starting from a dead stop in high gear.

[dumb person]

The first 800 or so cars had water pumps.

[Royce P]

The Model K sold around 900 cars between 1906 and 1909. Hardly a sales success. The cars had numerous design problems including a weak rear axle, frame that twisted too much on rough roads leading to cracked crankcase, and of course the planetary transmission not being as strong as the engine. It was not that the planetary transmission design could not be made strong enough to handle the power. The problem is that the one used in the K was simply not as good as it could have been.

Many cars of that era suffered from poor decisions regarding material selection and design. The Model K was no better or worse than its competition in those regards. Which is why in the end it was not noteworthy for its success (it wasn't successful) and it was not noted for its performance or its reliability either. The K was not too good compared to the NRS or the Model T in terms of performance in class, sales, or reliability. Which is why so few exist today compared to its competition, notably the Packards, Stoddard Daytons and Pierce Arrows and other great cars of the 1906 - 1909 era.

[raprice]

The Model N was a 4 cylinder which preceded the Model R, S and then the T. If you examine the N, R and S engines, you'll see a good resemblance to the T engine.
Rog

[gas pumper]

At the Piquettte Ave plant museum they have all the alphabet cars and also the workshop where the T was developed. There is an interesting prototype T engine that is basically a NRS engine turned backwards to put the flywheel where we now think of it as the right place. Also this was brought about by Henry wanting the left hand drive as the the earlier cars were right hand and the manifolding and carb were on the other side. Very interesting. They also developed the removable head and one piece block crankcase there at this time.

[markwilltoo]

The Model T factory water pump was dropped after the first 800 model ts. Don't let any one tell you that you need a water pump on a model T, that's a myth. If your car overheats then you need a new radiator...it's just that simple. I driven my T on tour in over 100 deg temps w/o a water pump and it never even ran hot. I have an 8+ year old Brassworks radiator.

[40 Deluxe]

I have a book in front of me titled "I Invented The Modern Age" that gives some information on the development of the T engine. It basically was an upgrade of the Model N engine and used a one piece block with removeable head instead of separate cylinders bolted to a crankcase. Ford's right hand man Charlie Sorenson figured out how to cast the block in one piece.
As to the efficiency of thermosiphon cooling (no water pump), Dad had a '30's tractor (Farmall F20) without a water pump. I remember looking in the radiator after a hard pull on the corn sheller and was amazed at how fast the water was circulating! At least as fast as if it had a pump!

[mhsprecher]

A great book to read is My Forty Years with Ford by Charles Sorenson. It is not in print anymore, but you can buy and electronic version. Cast Iron Charlie's view of the history of Ford, but it is a good one.

[G Baese]

The 6 cylinder car based on the Model N mentioned above, was one of two experimental cars made. It used 3 of the Model N cast-in-pairs cylinders on a special crankcase. It also had the heavy front mounted flywheel with the fan vanes cast into it. This didn't work out well because the brake was on the transmission, like the Model T, so under heavy braking the flywheel inertia had a tendency to twist the crankshaft.


One of the cars sold at a Henry Ford Museum auction in the '60's or '70's and spent some time locally. It was an interesting car and a great piece of rare automotive history.


Best regards,
gb

[Topher5150]

I think there was a special on the history channel about Henry Ford and the Dodge brothers working together.

[40 Deluxe]

If that's the same one I watched, it was a lot of "bunk", to quote Henry Ford. Very inaccurate, typical Hollywood story-telling. Henry Ford once said that "history is a lot of bunk", meaning nonsense. He was right in a lot of cases. In school I was taught that 'Columbus discovered America and that the earth is round, not flat.' Wrong on both counts! Or the fable about George Washi8ngton and the cherry tree. And so on.

[rotorwrench]

At least one of the docu-dramas that has been presented about the relationship that Ford had with the Dodge brothers was very disappointing. I don't think they did much research for it and it painted a bad picture of their relationship. It was basically just business between an owner and investors in his company. The Dodge brothers owned a pretty good stake in Ford Motor Co. It cost Henry a lot to buy them out but he did it within good business practices of the day. They took the money and started there own automobile manufacturing company but they weren't the only investors that did that after working with Henry Ford. Henry had already been leveraged out of a company before and he wasn't going that route a second time.

[dropacent]

Royce has told the correct K history in two paragraphs , IMHO . From my personal knowledge , there is likely not a K running today that hasn’t had the transmission totally remade or rebuilt. Many found through the years had other transmissions grafted into place, to keep them on the road. The F was a 2 cylinder, 12 HP auto made at the same time , and the K transmission is just about the same size. The F transmissions did not hold up well, either. The F sold out in a year, and it took FoMoCo 4 or 5 years to get rid of the K production. Sure, they had grandiose plans for the K, and since the Dodge brothers were large shareholders, and the largest supplier to the company, they forced the purchase of 1000. In the end, they sold them with stripped down bodies to get rid of them. There has recently been a lot of revisionist history put out by a non neutral person that has never been challenged by any historian. This is my opinion, the K is a grand car, but was a flop when new. I believe Henry never wanted anything to do with another 6 cylinder car. ( and he didn’t )

[Jack Innes]

Henry Ford did make one, & one only, six cylinder car other than the K model in the pre T period.
The car still exists in fine running condition.


I also have recently made some parts for two different model K cars & have seen them totally apart. Compared to other large cars of the era the K could be best described as "dainty". Royce & Tim have summed them up quite well.

[40 Deluxe]

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Originally Posted by dropacent

Royce has told the correct K history in two paragraphs , IMHO . From my personal knowledge , there is likely not a K running today that hasn’t had the transmission totally remade or rebuilt. Many found through the years had other transmissions grafted into place, to keep them on the road. The F was a 2 cylinder, 12 HP auto made at the same time , and the K transmission is just about the same size. The F transmissions did not hold up well, either. The F sold out in a year, and it took FoMoCo 4 or 5 years to get rid of the K production. Sure, they had grandiose plans for the K, and since the Dodge brothers were large shareholders, and the largest supplier to the company, they forced the purchase of 1000. In the end, they sold them with stripped down bodies to get rid of them. There has recently been a lot of revisionist history put out by a non neutral person that has never been challenged by any historian. This is my opinion, the K is a grand car, but was a flop when new. I believe Henry never wanted anything to do with another 6 cylinder car. ( and he didn’t )

dropacent, I would like your personal opinion: who is the person putting out falsified (revisionist) history? Or, what titles are associated with this bad information? It would be helpful to know what to avoid. I enjoy history but I don't appreciate fiction masquerading as fact!
Thanks for your help!

[rotorwrench]

The one I'm referring to came from a 4-part series titled "The Men Who Built America" on the History Channel. The part about Henry Ford specifically. Like all "Docu-Dramas", the producers have to add and change history to make it "interesting to the masses" when in fact, they paint a new history that is very loosely based on any facts at all. They focused on strife with investors and employees instead of just putting actual historical content of the Ford Motor Company out there. It was one of the worst docu-dramas I've ever witnessed.

I can't speak to the quality of the early Fords other than there is always a reason that they are changed from one year to the next. Ford tried to manufacture a large car to compete in that market but the engineering was not going to catch up. Ford's vision was for an affordable car for the masses and the Model K was in another market. When they finally went the route they did, the cars (Model T) became popular very quickly. When Ford finally got back in to the high end market it was the purchase of Lincoln from Henry Leland that got them there.

[dropacent]

I’ll give you a clue , 40 Deluxe. It’s the same fellow that changed all the K info on Wikipedia to suit his revisionist history. He works hard at it !

[Royce P]

Actually the first 800 or so cars had water pumps and two lever / two pedal operating controls. The first 2499 cars had water pumps. Those from around S/N 801 - 2499 had three pedals and a water pump. They are rare.


Here's S/N 904 which had a water pump when this photo was taken in the early 1920's, and still has a water pump today:

Originally Posted by dumb person

The first 800 or so cars had water pumps.

[Bruce_MO]

New book out called "Michigan's C. Harold Wills: The Genius Behind the Model T". It covers his time as one of the first Ford employees and the work he did on the Model T. I think most historians say he was the lead designer. And he led most of the development work on the A thru S cars, I believe.

[trulyvintage]

The Ford Model B marketed in 1904 and 1905 was the first 4 cylinder production car marketed by Ford Motor Company.

The Dodge Brothers were stockholders at Ford Motor Company.

It has a water pump.

It was the first to have a fully enclosed rear differential - driveline - engine in front of the firewall.

The only documented - largely original Model B known to exist - is historically known as B 52.

The Ford Model B cars were identified by number(s) cast at multiple locations on the engine.

B 52 is currently in Southern California undergoing a minimal sympathetic restoration.

It is hopefully going to enter and complete the 2019 New London to New Brighton Run in Minnesota.


Jim

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

A great book to read is My Forty Years with Ford by Charles Sorenson. It is not in print anymore, but you can buy and electronic version. Cast Iron Charlie's view of the history of Ford, but it is a good one.

This book tells a lot about Henry Ford through the eyes of one of his closest confidants. I think he trusted Charlie's advice more than about anyone else in his life with exception to his wife Clara. Henry was a loner so he had few close friends but he always kept Mr Sorensen relatively close to him.


Mr Sorensen tells the whole story about all the people that were involved in the Model T. It was a closed project in a room in the back corner of the Piquette Avenue plant to keep secrecy from the other investors. There were four men of Hungarian decent directly on the team. Joe Galamb, an engineer, with Gene Farkas, a design man, and Jules Haltenberger, another engineer, as assistants. Charles Balough, another engineer, was a friend of Joe Galamb since they went to engineering school together in Budapest before coming to the US. They spoke Hungarian when talking about the project so few others could tell what they were talking about.


Charlie Sorensen was the pattern man who fashioned many of the parts from wood so that they could see how they would work together prior to going to casting. He had a knack for understanding Henry Fords ideas and making them into reality. They used a chalk board for design instead of blue prints. They took photographs of the chalk board in order to have a design to go to patent whenever they had a new ideas. This way no one could break in and see what they were doing.


C. Harold Wills and a technical assistant J. Kent Smith, a metallurgist, were very involved in the Vanadium steel development for gears, axles, and some other parts for strength and longevity. They also developed ways to heat treat the metals for strength. This led to a very tough product that would last far longer than anything Ford had built before.


Some of the design came from previous models but there were a lot of changes even to those. Henry was a guy that had innovative ideas but he counted on those around him to do the actual design, fabrication, and implementation of these ideas. Henry's brilliance was as an industrialist with very sound judgment about how to go about mass production and consumerism. He could recognize the potential in people to get things done.


The book is available on Amazon in paperback.

[trulyvintage]

Henry Ford forced the Dodge Brothers out.

It was not Amicable.

I transported the 1906 Model K to Dean Yoder last year from Oregon
after Bakersfield Swap.





I attended the New London to New Brighton Run as well
where Dean and KD had a long Saturday but managed to cross
the finish line.





I hopefully will be there again this year.


Jim

[rotorwrench]

The Dodge brothers wanted Ford to build large luxury cars like the Model K. Their idea was lower volume and higher price. You can see that in the cars that they built as well. They also built a lot of the model K but they didn't want to do the development work to get it more reliable. John & Horace had a different idea about how to go about the manufacture of automobiles that didn't fit Henry Ford's plans. They finally built a tough car on their own but Budd built the bodies and they were almost twice the price of a Ford. Henry eventually wanted to build the whole car and that was his concept. Mass production required the aid of other suppliers though, at least until the company was up to doing most of it in house. They didn't get that far before Henry died but they were pretty close. Henry had no problem buying them all out, He actually got a loan to do it but payed it down quickly by selling off unneeded assets. Henry may not have liked the Dodge brothers but he had some respect for their abilities to work hard and stay in the auto manufacturing business. He never felt that they would be a serious competitor and they never were. Walter P Chrysler was the one that developed their brand into competition with Ford.


Henry started up the separate company Ford and Son to make it appear that he was willing to scrap Ford Motor Company and he stopped paying dividends to pay for the new plant. This forced most of the other stock holders to take him to court. Whether they would win or not, Ford Motor Company would lose so they finally accepted his buy out offers. All but one of the major stock holders sold out for a large sum. The DB were only a 10% share holder so they only got 10% of the buy out. Jim Couzins was the only one that didn't sell but he was the president of the company so he was an integral part of Ford Motors plus he was highly valued by Henry Ford. He eventually went on to be mayor of Detroit and a Senator from Michigan after he finally sold out.

[mhsprecher]

Those original stockholders made a fortune from their Ford stock. It is interesting to look it up and convert to today's dollar.

One of the issues was that Ford wanted to take profits and plow them back into the company. The stockholders wanted dividends. Sound familiar? They took him to court and won.

[SkimmerBob]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

In school I was taught that 'Columbus discovered America and that the earth is round, not flat.' Wrong on both counts! Or the fable about George Washi8ngton and the cherry tree. And so on.

The Earth Is Flat!!!!!!
YIKES!!!!!!!
Is it Circular or square? How thick is it and does the gravity pull whatever is on the under side up ?

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

Those original stockholders made a fortune from their Ford stock. It is interesting to look it up and convert to today's dollar.

One of the issues was that Ford wanted to take profits and plow them back into the company. The stockholders wanted dividends. Sound familiar? They took him to court and won.

In the end they all won as far as I'm concerned. The stockholders who were bought out were paid way in excess of what they had invested so they all got more than they expected. Ford gained full control of a private company so he got what he wanted. The court judgement was in favor of the stockholders as far as their being compensated by dividends BUT the court could in no way set what amount those dividends could be monetarily. This gave the person running the company the right to adjust dividends to meet the needs of the company as well. Henry couldn't stop paying them but he could adjust them low enough so as to build what ever the company needed to keep producing. This is a famous case and there is a lot about it in law books as well as the internet. It set presidents that are largely ignored today. The reason is that there are very few companies of this size that aren't listed on the US stock exchanges as publicly traded companies.