Finding TDC for leak-down test

[alexiskai]

Hi folks,

Getting ready to do a leak-down test to check for valve issues on cylinder 2. What's the easiest way to find TDC on cylinders other than #1?

The only way I've thought of so far is to go to TDC on #1, pull the distributor cap, and crank around until the rotor has turned 90°. However, this seems.... imprecise.

[MikeK]

All plugs out. Find #1 with the timing pin. Now make a paint mark on the pulley and set up a wire or sheet metal pointer for it from a front timing cover bolt. Measure around the pulley with a flexible tape and mark the opposite side, 180 degrees. Crank away!

[Synchro909]

How about you leave the distributor right where it is and watch the arm stop at the same place in relation to #2 contact in the body as it was on #1. You'll be within a few degrees - plenty close enough for your test.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by MikeK

All plugs out. Find #1 with the timing pin. Now make a paint mark on the pulley and set up a wire or sheet metal pointer for it from a front timing cover bolt. Measure around the pulley with a flexible tape and mark the opposite side, 180 degrees. Crank away!

So the rotation of the crankshaft pulley would be:
TDC cylinder 1: 0° (with timing gear at dimple)
TDC cylinder 2: 180°
TDC cylinder 4: 360°
TDC cylinder 3: 540° (1.5x around)

Is that right?

[Jack Shaft]

Or take a spark plug and adapt an air nipple to it,use shop air,its way more precise to check at 120 psi than 65

[alexiskai]

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Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Or take a spark plug and adapt an air nipple to it,use shop air,its way more precise to check at 120 psi than 65

I actually bought one of the dual-gauge leak-down testers, got the adapter, the whole nine yards. Just wasn't sure how to position the piston where I need it.

[Jack Shaft]

Doesnt matter,the lower the piston in the boredoes relax the rings some but not enough to mask an issue..or just crak till rotor at #2.that more than close enough to get full ring seal from bore taper.Stethoscope is handy for this..

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

So the rotation of the crankshaft pulley would be:
TDC cylinder 1: 0° (with timing gear at dimple)
TDC cylinder 2: 180°
TDC cylinder 4: 360°
TDC cylinder 3: 540° (1.5x around)

Is that right?

Yup.

[johnbuckley]

Soapy water. Slacken plugs watch bubble inflate on compression and even watch it deflate once past TDC . Can be used on any vehicle and any cylinder.

[Fairview]

I put my big fat thumb over the spark plug hole and feel the compression increasing as the engine is slowly turned by an assistant.

Be careful of putting air pressure in a cylinder unless the piston is exactly at top dead center. Anywhere but the top and you will have an engine trying to spin the crank or whatever right out of you hands, or worse yet is if the car is in gear.

[juanvaldez]

Yep, put your thumb over the hole of the adaptor that screws into spark plug hole and turn crank until you feel pressure on #1. Apply some air, resistance will go away at TDC. Then apply full air pressure. Then follow firing order, 1/2 revolution to next TDC

[Jack Shaft]

Never could make an engine turn on shop air, that's an interesting point. There are other tests besides leakdown to determine a valve failure..a vacuum gauge is a very useful tool for engine diagnostics,and a wet/dry compression tests works as well,If compression is low with a cylinder squirt oil into cylinder and re test,if it comes up its rings,if it doesn't come up its either head gasket or valves.Its not prudent just to repair the cylinder with a leaky valve and neglect the others,generally they all wear evenly..find one bad do a complete valve job.

[alexiskai]

Thanks, I've already done compression and vacuum tests. These tests diagnosed 45 psi compression on #2 and loose valve guides overall. The purpose of the leak-down test is to see whether #2's issues are valve-related.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

[QUOTE=Fairview;1869004]I put my big fat thumb over the spark plug hole and feel the compression increasing as the engine is slowly turned by an assistant.

QUOTE]


Thumb method, and when on compression a dowel rod through the Spark plug hole for visual when piston is at the top of it's stroke?

[Jack Shaft]

In my opinion there is enough evidence to go inside,but that's up to you.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

In my opinion there is enough evidence to go inside,but that's up to you.

I agree, but my ability to diagnose visually is limited by experience, so I'd prefer to proceed carefully via quantitative analysis.

I feel like I got my answer with the crankshaft pulley rotation method. It appeals to my tendency to overthink things. Thanks folks.

[Sunnybrook Farm]

I just tore an old motor down last month and set it to top dead center on #1 by the timing pin while I had the head off and the piston wasn't at the top of the stroke. Come to find out that someone 70 years or so ago had put a timing gear one tooth off. Lots of carbon in the combustion areas so they probably weren't very happy and parked the car, it hasn't been run in ages by the looks of it. Anyway, I guess you can't assume but so much sometimes.

[alexiskai]

That's great info. I'd love to see a list of "things you should do while you have the head off."

[Fairview]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Never could make an engine turn on shop air, that's an interesting point.]

Hi Jack,

I don’t know if a Model A engine will start making complete revolutions with compressed air piped into one cylinder, but when doing leak down tests on airplanes, an assistant has to hold the propeller for dear life as it tries to turn. If the piston moves off TDC it takes a lot of strength to hold the prop. If it gets too far down the stroke, it can’t be held in place.

I would think a piston not exactly at TDC will rapidly blow to the bottom of the stroke and catch the tester and assistant by surprise, sending a handheld starting crank or wrench flying, or a lurch forward or backward if in gear. Whether or not it will continue to make complete revolutions I just don’t know.

I could be wrong, but I’d be extra careful.

What do you think?

[katy]

Years ago a lot of large stationary diesel engines use air for starting, using a special valve in the head and a special lobe on the cam shaft.

[Jim Brierley]

You will find that when the pistons are at TDC and BDC, the crank will turn back and forth a bit easily, not so when not on TDC

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by katy

Years ago a lot of large stationary diesel engines use air for starting, using a special valve in the head and a special lobe on the cam shaft.

I think it's still common practice in a lot of applications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-start_system

[GPierce]

Originally Posted by Fairview

Hi Jack,

I don’t know if a Model A engine will start making complete revolutions with compressed air piped into one cylinder, but when doing leak down tests on airplanes, an assistant has to hold the propeller for dear life as it tries to turn. If the piston moves off TDC it takes a lot of strength to hold the prop. If it gets too far down the stroke, it can’t be held in place.

I would think a piston not exactly at TDC will rapidly blow to the bottom of the stroke and catch the tester and assistant by surprise, sending a handheld starting crank or wrench flying, or a lurch forward or backward if in gear. Whether or not it will continue to make complete revolutions I just don’t know.

I could be wrong, but I’d be extra careful.

What do you think?

Put it on top dead center, high gear, parking brake on. Maybe block the wheels. It isn’t going anywhere.

There is nothing restraining an aircraft propellor. The car is restrained. If the airplane prop is on top dead center when you apply the air pressure it will not move.

[daren007]

If the engine gets away i doubt it will travel to BDC. At most just surprise those doing the testing and possibly cause physical harm. If you have exact TDC nothing should happen. I have done this many times alone and was able to leave the engine to listen at the tail pipe, Crankcase breather and radiator without problems.

[Jack Shaft]

No matter how fast the piston speed is,it stops twice for each crankshaft revolution..food for thought.

[Patrick L.]

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TDC doesn't have to be perfect for this test. Close is good. Just make sure its on compression stroke. Put transmitter in gear, apply park brake. It only takes a little air pressure to perform this test. If the crank position is off a bit then the air pressure can certainly cause the crank to turn, reason for putting the trans in gear and applying the brake.

[daren007]

The engine will not move very far. I know from experience.

[MikeK]

I would like to disagree with much of the information that suggests a cylinder does not have to be exactly at TDC to perform a leak-down test.

First, there are A) leak-down tests and then there are B) so-called leak down tests and then C) just air pressure tests, often of a single cylinder, that some erroneously call 'leak down tests'.

Actual leak down tests were standardized for aircraft cylinder comparisons and evaluation with a 0.040" orifice and manifold and the entire assembly, including gauges, feed fittings and hoses is calibrated for a specific indicated flow rate drop. Those instruments are certified as to calibration and not chinese junk. Nice, but overkill for the casual user.

Now, in the case of this thread the O.P. is only looking for a valve leak so yes, a hose of shop air through a single cylinder not exactly at TDC may give you an audible hiss, but that is NOT a true leak down test. That would be like calling a farmer-fix with bailing wire a factory authorized and certified procedure.

OK, who cares and so what if I do either A,B, or C above not exactly at TDC?:

First, all used engines develop a ridge above the top ring position. Only at true TDC is the top ring tightly pressed against that ridge which may result in intermittent ring cocking and contact loss resulting in leakage not seen 1/16" down. A cracked top compression ring may only show excessive loss at this position. Also, only at true TDC can you detect any interference problems with piston/ gasket/ head that may cause a piston to tilt and break ring seal.

You only really need to do what you have to do to look for a specific fault, like a valve leak. But please do not refer to an un-metered pressurization of a single cylinder at any old position as a leak-down test. Call it what it is- a listen for some kinda hiss test. A true leak down test is quantitative, a hiss test qualitative at best.

[daren007]

I have to agree. Having worked in Aviation for 50 years. On your A this is a good test for valve leakage. It can also verify blo-by and help find possible head gasket problems. Yes you can hear air in the radiator.

[alexiskai]

I have an OTC 5609 cylinder leak tester, and the plan was to go to TDC and use regulated airflow to find out not only where the leak is but how severe. This will help me determine the cost/benefit for attempting a repair. As seen in another current thread, replacing valve guides is not easy and I don't have any local resources to help me out.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think it's still common practice in a lot of applications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-start_system

This is an air powered starter motor. The large stationary engines mentioned put air pressure directly into the cylinders to get the engine rotating; no starter motor is used. A lot of youtube videos show this.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Have not done a leak down myself, have questions.


Instead of listening in the radiator, can you just overfill the radiator and look for coolant bubbles? Other causes besides a bad head gasket?


If you hear hissing in the crank case, other causes than rings?


Instead of listening, can you seal the breather tube with the palm of your hand to see if there is pressure from the air hooked up to the spark plug hole?
Thanks.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Have not done a leak down myself, have questions.


Instead of listening in the radiator, can you just overfill the radiator and look for coolant bubbles? Other causes besides a bad head gasket?


If you hear hissing in the crank case, other causes than rings?


Instead of listening, can you seal the breather tube with the palm of your hand to see if there is pressure from the air hooked up to the spark plug hole?
Thanks.

Just for context, are you asking these questions because there's something about your situation that would make hearing these sounds difficult?

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Just for context, are you asking these questions because there's something about your situation that would make hearing these sounds difficult?

Asking for info only, do not have a problem,. Would like to try it sometime this year as educating myself. Just exploring the possibilities.

[daren007]

You can fill the radiator if you want to deal with the mess. Do not hold your hand over the oil fill tube. You will force oil out the rear main. With experience you will be able to determine what is acceptable and what is not. The point is there is a lot of trouble shooting that you can do with a leak tester.

[Patrick L.]

All that is needed for an 'A' engine is the 'hiss' test. Its still a leak test no matter how its looked at. You're looking to see/hear where the cylinder air is escaping and if its more than normal.