Water pump won't fit now.

[37 Coupe]

If it isn't one thing it is another.I go back to working on the engine ,take the water pump out I bought new and it will not go in the manifold,hung up somewhere where it cannot go all the way in One I took off was fine as far as fit,thought I was improving by buying a leakless pump. I cannot get through to Bratton's by phone and I doubt they will help it has been over a year and it is marked Bratton's but came from Mac's and they will not help.I swear I am going to get this running and stick with my '37.

[1931 flamingo]

Does the new pump have a collar with a set screw to adj end play?? Put the pumps side by side, what are the differences??
Paul in CT

[J Franklin]

I agree assess the differences and maybe let us know so we can help with a solution. Some pump shafts were made longer to be able to fit the clearance in a worn head stop.

[Gary WA]

shaft end may be to long hitting head? If so grind some off.

[Benson]

PM sent

[J Franklin]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Gary WA

shaft end may be to long hitting head? If so grind some off.

If so you want to shoot for .006 clearance with the gasket in place. Usually 0 clearance without the gasket.

[37 Coupe]

Seriously a Model A needed shaft clearance inside? It looks to me like the impeller o.d is bigger than the recess for it.Iam talking about a good 3/16" gap when it will not go in any further.I will measure o.d tomorrow with my original. No phone anwering at Bratton's mayby because of the ice and storm.

[marty in Ohio]

We rebuilt a pump last week with parts from Snyders. In the kit it was explained that the new impeller shaft was 1/4 inch longer to take up the distance in the head from a worn boss. It said to grind the end till the pump fit tight to the head, then put on the gasket and install. Grind slow, check often.
Marty

[J Franklin]

Don't just check the OD, compare and measure the length of the shaft and shaft past the impeller to the casting. Compare everything and let us know what you find.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by marty in Ohio

We rebuilt a pump last week with parts from Snyders. In the kit it was explained that the new impeller shaft was 1/4 inch longer to take up the distance in the head from a worn boss. It said to grind the end till the pump fit tight to the head, then put on the gasket and install. Grind slow, check often.
Marty

Okay thanks for the info.You think that there would be instructions on this with a complete new pump.I am done for the day and will check lengths tomorrow.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Don't just check the OD, compare and measure the length of the shaft and shaft past the impeller to the casting. Compare everything and let us know what you find.

Yes,I appreciate all the help and will check everything out tomorrow and report back. Mayby I can get a hold of Brattons and ask if this is the norm and why no instructions. It still looks to me like the leading edge of the impeller blades are hitting first.

[J Franklin]

Missing instructions could be an omission at the manufacture/packaging point.

[denniskliesen]

Mine barely touched the new 6:1 head I had installed. Had I known then what I know now I would have ground considerably more from the impeller. I know right where the rpm limit is otherwise it pushes coolant out the overflow. No it's not a radiator or overheat problem, it just plain pumps too much.

[Bob C]

You can download Bratton's instructions here. https://www.brattons.com/30-31-new-l...ater-pump.html


Bob

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Bob C

You can download Bratton's instructions here. https://www.brattons.com/30-31-new-l...ater-pump.html


Bob

Got it,Thank You and all. I guess I will work on it tomorrow and should be good. I do have another concern.Don't most water pumps turn or spin pretty freely? This seems knda snug,not really tight but is that because of the packing and it will loosen up? Been awhile since I had a water pump that used packing instead of a seal.

[J Franklin]

If it spins without binding it should be fine. Lube it up and go!

[eagle]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Mine barely touched the new 6:1 head I had installed. Had I known then what I know now I would have ground considerably more from the impeller. I know right where the rpm limit is otherwise it pushes coolant out the overflow. No it's not a radiator or overheat problem, it just plain pumps too much.

Must be quite a pump if it can pump out more than it can pull in from the bottom of the radiator!

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

Got it,Thank You and all. I guess I will work on it tomorrow and should be good. I do have another concern.Don't most water pumps turn or spin pretty freely? This seems knda snug,not really tight but is that because of the packing and it will loosen up? Been awhile since I had a water pump that used packing instead of a seal.

It will be, till used some.

[1crosscut]

Put some yellow crayon or such on the areas of the pump you suspect are touching, rotate the shaft and see where the crayon rubs off.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Mine barely touched the new 6:1 head I had installed. Had I known then what I know now I would have ground considerably more from the impeller. I know right where the rpm limit is otherwise it pushes coolant out the overflow. No it's not a radiator or overheat problem, it just plain pumps too much.

I agree , my experience has been that the water pump just pumps too much . Snyders suggested years ago to modify the impeller . I grind the tips of the impeller blades . Snyders offers a modified impeller . This is pictured on page A-140 and they give the info that you need . You can get a good idea where to grind by looking at the pics if you decide to do it yourself .This mod will also slightly reduce some of the power that an over pumping water pump will draw .

[Purdy Swoft]

Adding an extra gasket or two may shim the pump out far enough to allow installation of the pump , without grinding .

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

I agree , my experience has been that the water pump just pumps too much . Snyders suggested years ago to modify the impeller . I grind the tips of the impeller blades . Snyders offers a modified impeller . This is pictured on page A-140 and they give the info that you need . You can get a good idea where to grind by looking at the pics if you decide to do it yourself .This mod will also slightly reduce some of the power that an over pumping water pump will draw .

Okay this tip really will help me and something I did not know.I see the page and picture of the cutdown impeller and I am going to use a Bergs brand new radiator which it looks like I need less pump volumn.Thank You very helpful.

[SSsssteamer]

Originally Posted by eagle

Must be quite a pump if it can pump out more than it can pull in from the bottom of the radiator!

The dynamics of this is that the water pump draws the water out of the block too fast and it creates a low pressure with in the block. Any water close to the boiling point, flashes into steam at the lower pressure and the steam then displaces the water in the block. Hence you have more water coming out of the water pump than is pulled in from the bottom inlet. It is the old school teaching that water boils at a lower temperature on the mountain top than the higher temperature that it boils at sea level. A pressurized radiator will very well raise the boiling point of the water in the system thereby preventing boiling over at the old lower water temperature.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

The dynamics of this is that the water pump draws the water out of the block too fast and it creates a low pressure with in the block. Any water close to the boiling point, flashes into steam at the lower pressure and the steam then displaces the water in the block. Hence you have more water coming out of the water pump than is pulled in from the bottom inlet. It is the old school teaching that water boils at a lower temperature on the mountain top than the higher temperature that it boils at sea level. A pressurized radiator will very well raise the boiling point of the water in the system thereby preventing boiling over at the old lower water temperature.

Finally a perfect explanation of what happens, as I know it can pump too much coolant. Mine also used to blow out the overflow pipe at speeds over 42 MPH. Antifreeze will also raise the boiling point. I always use 50% antifreeze, and that with the flush and thermostat have fixed my coolant problems.

[37 Coupe]

When I finally grind and get everything to fit correctly should I use Permatex #2 or spray copper gasket sealer on or just install so it would be easier to remove if necessary?

[eagle]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by SSsssteamer

The dynamics of this is that the water pump draws the water out of the block too fast and it creates a low pressure with in the block. Any water close to the boiling point, flashes into steam at the lower pressure and the steam then displaces the water in the block. Hence you have more water coming out of the water pump than is pulled in from the bottom inlet. It is the old school teaching that water boils at a lower temperature on the mountain top than the higher temperature that it boils at sea level. A pressurized radiator will very well raise the boiling point of the water in the system thereby preventing boiling over at the old lower water temperature.

Exactly! However, a properly functioning radiator and a clean block will not reach the temps where flashover occurs. Higher water turbulance also leads to better heat transfer too.

[1crosscut]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

When I finally grind and get everything to fit correctly should I use Permatex #2 or spray copper gasket sealer on or just install so it would be easier to remove if necessary?

I like to use Indian Head shellac on the ones I do.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

When I finally grind and get everything to fit correctly should I use Permatex #2 or spray copper gasket sealer on or just install so it would be easier to remove if necessary?

I like Copper Coat. In the late 70's I had to remove a Model A head to do a valve job, and some fool used shellac on the head gasket. I used a puller on the head, and had the whole front of the car in the air, and the head wasn't budging. I also had to use a hammer and thin blade to keep working around the head gasket. It took hours just to get the head off.

[37 Coupe]

Well I work on this fitting up this morning and have figured it out. Pump will not fit over studs,mounting holes are off significantly enough that it will not fit past the fine thread end of the studs. May work with bolts or drilling mounting holes much larger but they are off quite a bit. Bratton's ofcourse say that I am the first and only one to have had this issue and even though origin was Bratton's to Mac's they cannot and willnot offer a refund or replacement. I actually bought this from another Model A guy who probably had the same problem. I was getting ready to buy a pump he had one for sale,not any cheaper actually but at the time Bratton's were out of stock. I figured he was helping me and I was helping him. Oh well at least I have new parts other than the housing I can use.

[Bob C]

Check your studs. Some of the new studs are noticeably larger between the fine thread and course thread, this may be the problem.


Bob

[TerryO]

I like to use the fake stud bolts. It makes future repairs easier.


http://www.mikes-afordable.com/product/A8508.html


TerryO

[Purdy Swoft]

I also prefer the fake stud bolts . I would redrill the mounting holes before I would replace the pump housing .

[Tom Wesenberg]

I wonder if one of the studs in the head broke and someone drilled and tapped it off from the correct position.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I wonder if one of the studs in the head broke and someone drilled and tapped it off from the correct position.

But the pump that I am replacing fits,same size diameter bolt holes,same diameter boss and it fits in place.I will know for sure today as I am getting another pump from Bratton's my expense and if it doesn't fit I know I either have another problem or need another pump source. I really do believe that holes are drilled off of pump boss,probably close to 1/16" just eyeballing.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I wonder if one of the studs in the head broke and someone drilled and tapped it off from the correct position.

Oh wise one,yes Masster you are correct. The pump arrived from Bratton's and it too does not fit. It has to be that someone has broken a stud off years ago and rewelded or repositioned the threaded holes. The old pump fits and holes do not look enlarged or elongated that I can see. I do remember when I took it off it was bolted not the studs I replaced with. I had a great head but opted for the old one that was on the engine because of the Ford Script on it,sold the other head with an engine I had. So I am going to make this work somehow before I change heads I don't have 100% faith in the rest of the engine anyway. So going to get it running nd as I have been doing waiting for a good engine closeby. It seems to me more street rodders than ever are taking apart restored cars they are buying cheap. Thanks for all the help but that was a tricky one especially since the old pump fit.I think I will also get the bolts that look like studs.

[Bob C]

According to the Standards and Vince's site the script head was a service
replacement after 1931. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABcy...comparison.htm


Bob

[katy]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

Oh wise one,yes Masster you are correct. The pump arrived from Bratton's and it too does not fit. It has to be that someone has broken a stud off years ago and rewelded or repositioned the threaded holes. The old pump fits and holes do not look enlarged or elongated that I can see. I do remember when I took it off it was bolted not the studs I replaced with. I had a great head but opted for the old one that was on the engine because of the Ford Script on it,sold the other head with an engine I had. So I am going to make this work somehow before I change heads I don't have 100% faith in the rest of the engine anyway. So going to get it running nd as I have been doing waiting for a good engine closeby. It seems to me more street rodders than ever are taking apart restored cars they are buying cheap. Thanks for all the help but that was a tricky one especially since the old pump fit.I think I will also get the bolts that look like studs.

Figure out which of the studs is out of place and just file the side of the hole in the pump so it fits

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by katy

Figure out which of the studs is out of place and just file the side of the hole in the pump so it fits

Yes,that is next after apologizing to Bratton's.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Bob C

According to the Standards and Vince's site the script head was a service
replacement after 1931. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABcy...comparison.htm


Bob

Yes, I know this now. I let a better non script one go so at 73 years old I am not getting any smarter and a near 90 year old car is letting me know that. Flathead V8s must be for dummies and I shoulda stayed there.

[Purdy Swoft]

If the head that you let go wasn't a higher compression head , I wouldn't worry too much about it .

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

If the head that you let go wasn't a higher compression head , I wouldn't worry too much about it .

Are the higher compression heads really that desirable or advantageous? I guess I just look at what extra torque is required and next thing you know I would be on here crying about broken studs. Don't want to dig any more holes but will listen.

[Benson]

I do not know where all this concern about it being necessary to torque H C heads to 60 and more comes from...

For the record I started using Higher compression heads more than 55 years ago.

1. 5.2 Police head the "head with the large B".

Now granted I have ONLY driven 65,000 miles using several "heads with the Large B"

2. 4.6 head with "the large C".

3. Original Thomas 8.25 head.

4. Lion head III 7.0 CR.

I have NEVER torqued a head more than 55 lbs ... NEVER.

[Purdy Swoft]

I only torque my BF 5.9 heads to 55 ft. lbs. and have had no problems .

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

Are the higher compression heads really that desirable or advantageous? I guess I just look at what extra torque is required and next thing you know I would be on here crying about broken studs. Don't want to dig any more holes but will listen.

My experience with higher compression heads has all been good . I feel that all model A's would benefit from one . It seems almost a difference in day and night in power . Steep hills are no longer a problem .I feel that the model A is safer when it has the power to get out of the way of faster moving traffic .

[Benson]

In the early 60's I went up to the top of Mount Evans 14,250 feet with one of the Model A clubs.

On the way back we stopped at the park in Idaho Springs for lunch.

I parked next to two restored shiny Coupes.

One guy came over and started talking in a loud voice about how much better his "restored" car was than any others.

Then he started on my driver ...

Fenders are not black ... same color as body (fresh paint though!)... wrong color body paint.

He also ripped the paint for some time for not being "points" quality and repaired fender cracks...


The Sport Coupe top was wrong color and material as wrong, wood needed replacement.

Seats were wrong like the top.

The wheels were 19s instead of 21s.

And on and on.

By then there was a large crowd gathered around and a second jerk had "chimed in".

Then someone in back of the crowd said:

Hey Fred ... Tell us why the Kid's Coupe out runs every other car on the tour.

Why is his car so much faster?

Bill Kenz was near the front of the car and said.

(I did not know who Bill Kenz was at the time but I made point of getting to know him.)

"That is because the Kid's car has a Police Head ..."

The two "experts" said

"What is a "Police Head" ??

In 1963 you did not just go down to your parts store and buy a "Police Head!!

That was the first and ONLY time I attended a club function.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Yep, I feel the higher compression head is worth the money, and is the best bang for the buck to increase horsepower. After Larry quit making his 5.9 heads I bought a 5.5 from Bert's in Denver. Still haven't installed it, but looking forward to the day I can drive with it.

[37 Coupe]

I see where Bert's offers two heads ,one says not available until March,it is cheaper by $100 or so than the one that says USA made. So is this something you would do with an older engine or only with a rebuild and trustworthy studs?

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

I agree , my experience has been that the water pump just pumps too much . Snyders suggested years ago to modify the impeller . I grind the tips of the impeller blades . Snyders offers a modified impeller . This is pictured on page A-140 and they give the info that you need . You can get a good idea where to grind by looking at the pics if you decide to do it yourself .This mod will also slightly reduce some of the power that an over pumping water pump will draw .

Any chance the old "roofing nail in the overflow tube" would help?


If no, why/downsides?

[Purdy Swoft]

I haven't tried the roofing nail fix but it sounds good . If the nail in the overflow pipe didn't work , it would be easy enough to remove and try something else .

[katy]

A higher compression head should improve efficiency.

[Purdy Swoft]

I get better gas mileage with my roadster that has a 5.9 head and dual B carbs than my 31 tudor with a side bowl Zenith . I think the higher compression heads also run a little cooler .

[Jacksonlll]

What about the tapers? Do they match? The fan hub to the nose of the shaft must be a tight fit. No movement. Maybe your tapers don’t match. In your video, I can’t tell if the movement is the shaft or the fan hub on the shaft.