Help me identify engine noise?

[SAJ]

Benson, I always valued your replies which were always sensible, factual and helpful. I noticed you have cut back since critics and self-styled experts were prominent. But they seem to be gone now and the atmosphere is much friendlier.
So how about reverting to your old style with lots of good, well-researched facts and tips from your years of practical experience.
I would certainly value this and I am sure a lot more than just me would benefit.
SAJ in NZ

[Mr T]

Originally Posted by Benson

I have seen it happen 4 or 5 times on my car and customer's cars in 40,000 miles in the 60's when using A as daily driver and working at Restoration shops.

Tom,

I used to post about this problem and other oddball problems that I have seen in 55 years but after several "POOH POOHs" ... i quit posting about them altogether.

Hi Tom. Yes, there are a few members here who think that their opinions are absolute fact. I guess its just the way it goes on forums. Still, I hope you continue to post and share your wisdom with those of us who want to learn. Happy Sunday and happy Fathers Day!

[31Cabriolet68-C]

Here's another suggestion, based on your great ("tzing, tzing, tzing...") description...
Could a loose (warped, broken, bent!?!??!.) fan blade be wobbling just enough, to gently sweep over the lower fins of the radiator?
Seems very unlikely, but if the fan is in the mix, it's risky enough to mention it even as a long shot....
It might not be too hard to check, and
I think if you looked at the inner face of the radiator, and it was undamaged, then at the least, you'll have eliminated one more thing.....
TallyHo

[Mulletwagon]

Noise in my case was a poor fit of the fan hub on the tapered end of the water pump shaft. New pump and fan fixed the problem.

[katy]

Originally Posted by 31Cabriolet68-C

Here's another suggestion, based on your great ("tzing, tzing, tzing...") description...
Could a loose (warped, broken, bent!?!??!.) fan blade be wobbling just enough, to gently sweep over the lower fins of the radiator?
Seems very unlikely, but if the fan is in the mix, it's risky enough to mention it even as a long shot....
It might not be too hard to check, and
I think if you looked at the inner face of the radiator, and it was undamaged, then at the least, you'll have eliminated one more thing.....
TallyHo

In post #3 he says that he ran it w/out the fan belt.

[HDowse]

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My '29 coupe had a similar noise. It turned out to be the camshaft gear. It was worn but more importantly someone had 'tightened' the flat sided nut with a cold chisel not very successfully. Get a long dowel and put it on the timing cover and listen. It may be the problem.

[Greg Jones]

Once I had my engine pans make the gawdawfullest screeching noises but only at certain speeds. I was out driving at highway speed and it just started screeching terribly. Thought my engine was completely out of oil and I was burning bearings. Turned out to be loose engine pan. Anyway, if you have engine pans, it's easy to check to see if they are the culprit.

[john in illinois]

Originally Posted by Benson

I have seen it happen 4 or 5 times on my car and customer's cars in 40,000 miles in the 60's when using A as daily driver and working at Restoration shops.

Tom,

I used to post about this problem and other oddball problems that I have seen in 55 years but after several "POOH POOHs" ... i quit posting about them altogether.

I had the starter bendix make a intermitant clicking rachet type noise on my newly rebuilt flathead. It worried me to no end. I finally thought that was what it might be and replaced it. No more noise.

John

[mfarley]

I think I've now determined that this has something to do with the clutch. Seems like when I shove the clutch in the noise gets better, then slightly worsens when the clutch is let out. I did grease the zerk accessed through the access hole on top of the transmission without any effect.

[SAJ]

We have had 4 cars here recently where the starter Bendix, or barrel drive in my case, bashed the flywheel ring gear forward until clutch thrust caused it to kiss a starter motor bolt. Mine first started when braking down my very steep drive with the clutch pedal down. It worsened until every time I declutched on the flat it would tap. Another car developed into a screech as it worsened.
In my case it was on a new ring gear shrunk on and loctited. I guess the heat may have destroyed the loctite though. Starter is a 6 volt, but still hits hard with a high compression motor. Another car is 6 volt with standard compression.
I grub screwed my ring gear through the starter motor hole with 4 5 mm. allen head grub screws. One of these let go after a few thousand miles (long story- too much to repeat here) allowing the ring gear to bow forward 60 thou between the other grub screws and make a noise again. I knocked it back in line with a copper hammer, redrilled and tapped for an 8 mm screw and used wicking loctite on the ring gear. I hope it will stay put this time but no guarantee. One of the other 4 cars now has 8 grub screws. This was done with the flywheel out of the car.
We are wondering if the latest ring gears are made too loose. None were measured for interference before fitting. One cars gear had been on for many years, so was not a newly made one.
My suggestion is to check this. Remove the bolts one by one and look for witness marks of rubbing on the ends.
Having said this, we missed these marks on one car (under rally conditions in a carpark) and removed the engine unnecessarily, thinking a flywheel bolt had come loose. The gear had been knocked forward enough to eventually seize the engine with a terrible screeching. It was refitted with punch and hammer and loctite applied. Again, it is probably only a temporary fix. But a get-you-home would be to remove the starter, knock the gear back through the hole and fix it properly when home.
SAJ in NZ
Re reading your symptoms your noise goes with the clutch pedal down, so I guess is not what I just described

[Archie Cheda]

I have had a similar noise in my 1930 coupe for over a year. This noise would come and go, but mostly was at some high or low idle speeds and not others. I found that it would come and go if I moved the clutch pedal in and out, but applying pressure to the parking brake lever would affect it similarly. This led me to think that it might be the aftermarket two-piece front crankshaft pulley rubbing on the front cross-member, or perhaps the front motor mount yoke. It was easy to remove the two-piece pulley, but it showed no signs of rubbing and there seemed to be plenty of clearance all around. After re-assembling everything, the noise was still present.

Finally I thought of the front motor mount plate that sits on the cross-member as mentioned by katy in post #14 above. It seems that at certain idle speeds the engine's vibration causes the motor mount plate to rub slightly on the cross-member, causing a loud squeaking that mimics a rotary rubbing sound. I found that oil only helped a bit, but placing a few pieces of thin plastic between the motor mount and the cross-member immediately silenced the noise. After a while the loose piece of plastic vibrated out of position and the squeak returned, so the next step is to place a large rectangle of plastic (or perhaps leather), with a hole in it for the yoke stud, making it captive and unable to move out of place. (I could also epoxy it to the motor mount.)

I will report back how this works.

I strongly suggest that the original poster consider this possibility, earlier mentioned in post #14 of this thread.

Thanks katy, I wish I had read your advice a year ago.

[The Master Cylinder]

I had a similar noise in the front of the engine. As I was exploring I noticed if I lean on the engine a little the noise would go away. I tightened the mount nut under the cross member a couple of turns while the engine was running and it cured it.

I never thought of oiling it. Crazy old cars keep you on your toes, don't they?

[Conaway2]

This is interesting. My car has been making a similar or the same noise for 30 years or so - I can hear it around 40 mph. I swapped a rebuilt engine into the car 6 months ago and still hear the same noise. The water pump, entire clutch assembly and flywheel were also replaced. However, the same starter is on the car....

When I had the starter out for the engine swap, the ring gear teeth on the old flywheel and teeth on the starter be did looked fine. So I still am not sure what the noise is.

[Archie Cheda]

I promised to report what I learned:

Based on many inputs gleaned from other threads on this forum, I decided to also check out the rear motor mounts. The rubber between the rear motor support brackets bolted to the frame and the frame appeared to be hard, weathered, and cracked and new rubber was less than $10 so I ordered the rubber kit for the rear mounts along with a rebuild kit for the front mount. All I really needed was the leather washer, but I was glad to replace the flat (auxiliary) spring as well. I used the new coil springs, but they appeared to be identical to those in the car.

First, I learned a lot about the front mount from an article in the November 1928 Ford Service Bulletin (page 294-6). I will mention a few of the key things I learned from the article which I had not learned from the many hours of reading I have done on this (excellent) forum:

o When properly installed, the leather washer carries no load under static conditions -- it appears that the weight of the engine is primarily carried by the rear mounts and that the front end is supported only by the pair of coil springs. When road conditions cause the frame to flex, the leather washer cushions the initial contact with the flat spring and the single, lower spring limits motion in the other direction. I think that this allows the front of the engine to vibrate in all directions a slight amount, but providing an absolute limit to the possible motion. My noise was clearly the side-to-side motion of the flat spring rubbing on the frame cross-member.

o Quoting: "This is important. If the leather washer is in contact with the flat spring, or if coil springs are closed, one or both of these conditions will absolutely defeat the action of the support."

o There is a "REMARKS" section on page 296, which might be overlooked as it is at the top of a page discussing the single plate clutch. I will quote it in full here:

o Quoting: "If when the rear motor support arms are bolted to the engine the front support does not have 1/64 to 3/64 clearance between leather washer and top of flat spring, loosen the four bolts holding rear support bracket to motor, also loosen the six small bolts which clamp rear support brackets to frame. Next remove nut and spring and washer on lower end of support stud and jack up front end of motor approximately 3/8 inch. With the front end of the motor raised 3/8 inch, tighten the six small bolts which clamp rear support brackets to frame, then tighten the four bolts holding rear support brackets to engine, next lower front end of engine and re-assemble spring, washer and nut. This should provide proper clearance between leather washer and flat spring.

If the lower coil spring is closed and there is excessive clearance between leather washer and top of flat spring, repeat the above operation with the exception that the rear end of the engine is jacked up 3/8 of an inch instead of the front end."

All I can add is that this worked for me, first try on 3/8" at the front. (Your mileage may vary.)

I also will say that new rubber for the rear mount can be installed without removing the engine and without a frame spreader. I already had a "jack" made from a piece of electrical conduit, a piece of threaded rod, and a nut. It was made for a non-automotive job a decade ago and was the right length (by sheer coincidence) to place between the engine and frame. I only applied enough pressure to move the engine about an eighth of an inch. I could then remove all the bolts (2-big & 3-small) and remove the rear support bracket on one side. (On one side the bracket will only slide forward and the other only rearward.) Note that I supported the engine weight with a floor jack under the clutch housing, and the opposite side rear motor mount was always fully bolted up, providing excellent stability. Upon removal of the driver-side rubber & bracket I learned that my rubber was in good shape -- only the edges were hard, weathered, and cracked. I also observed that some welding of cracks had been performed. This lead me to inspect the other bracket which had a 1-1/2" long crack. I proceeded to re-install the driver-side bracket without rubber and proceeded to remove the other bracket for welding. I then installed the other bracket with new rubber, and finished up by installing the rubber on the driver side. The jack was used to alternately push the engine away from the frame on the side being worked on. All in all, this was not a difficult operation.

Once the rear mount was completed, I installed the new front mount parts, following the 3/8" procedure discussed above. I did observe that there was quite a bit of wear between on the frame cross-member where the flat spring had been vibrating for almost 90 years. The Ford Service Bulletin recommends assembly with grease between them, but I opted for a thin piece if bicycle inner tube. If I ever have the engine out again, I will do some welding repair on the cross-member.

P.S.: If you suspect your rubber needs to be replaced, you can remove the three nuts from the three bolts on either side of the car and you can pull off the plate and inspect the rubber on the outside of the frame. (While you are under the car, you can also look for cracks in the rear brackets.)

[Jerry in Shasta]

Long shot
Could it be that you idling is slow that oil is not being thrown up into the cylinders? clue you speed up the idle and it goes away