Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-04-2014, 10:34 AM   #1
OL JENNY
Senior Member
 
OL JENNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Muscatine, IA
Posts: 202
Default Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

I am changing my timing gear and dropping my pan, and I have read many of the posts on successful placement of the timing gear and pan gaskets. I noticed that Tom Wesenberg, who's advice I respect, and possibly others, place the rope seals in dry and then oils and greases after they are installed. Most reports suggest soaking in oil for a few days. Nearly all threads and printed reports suggest using a sealant at the spot where the paper or cork gaskets meet the rope seals. How does a sealant seal to an oily rope end? Since this is not something I have done for 30 years, I would like to do it as correctly as I can, to reduce the chances of oil leaks. My engine is in my car, so this old body will be working under the car. Thanks everybody
OL JENNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 11:13 AM   #2
V4F
Senior Member
 
V4F's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ca.
Posts: 2,490
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

either soak it in oil or grease it so as not to burn it ........
__________________
V4f
V4F is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-04-2014, 11:55 AM   #3
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,819
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

The "soak" routine goes back to the days when shaft seals were made from oakum, a hemp or jute fiber cord that would swell as it absorbed hydrocarbons to saturation.

Soaking too long was never good, you only wanted to insure complete oil wetting of the fiber surfaces, not saturation penetrating to individual fiber cores that would cause swell before inserting, or 'packing' the space you wished to seal.

Misunderstanding of how the seal works led to the belief that prolonged soak was necessary to instil sufficient lubricant to prevent friction burning of the fiber surface when the shaft first starts turning. That complete soak through will occur without fear of friction burning the surface if the complete, oiled final assembly has a few hours to sit before running the shaft.

Many 'modern' cord seals are synthetic material like nylon or teflon fiber that do not swell. That low friction external fiber is woven around a core of material that does swell. They are best installed dry and oiled afterwards, or freshly oiled and immediately placed before the desired pressure sealing core swell occurs.

Unfortunately many suppliers that buy bulk seal cord, then cut it and repackage for specific engines, include instructions based on old wives tales (actually old mechanics tales) telling you to soak the stuff overnight. For the tightest fit you do not want all the swell to occur before placement.
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.

Last edited by MikeK; 03-04-2014 at 12:01 PM.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 11:55 AM   #4
PC/SR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 1,147
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

I soak the seal and use #2 Permatex. The oil does not "reject" the Permatex. Works for me.
PC/SR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 12:09 PM   #5
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 2,928
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

i have 1 or 2 soaking at all times, never had a failure. i put a spot of silicone in the corners, it sticks to the pan or cover but not to the rope.
Jim Brierley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 12:39 PM   #6
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,414
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

I use to soak the rope seals in oil. I'm not sure about all of the rope seals that are available, the rope seals that Bratton offers are teflon coated and don't need to be soaked in oil. Ive used the Bratton style rope seals on the last few and they work well without soaking. I install mine pretty much like Tom except I don't trim them. Without trimming the rope seals they will stick up a bit above the flange of the oil pan. I put a small dab of silicone RTV sealer to fill in any gap at the outer edges of the rope seal. It will all pull down in place when the oil pan is tightened. It is difficult installing the pan because the ends of the untrimmed rope seal tends to hold the front of the pan off a bit. I use all thread cut to a longer length than the original bolts and use as studs at the front of the pan. When done this way, I use nuts to pull the front of the pan into place. After the pan is trightened in place you can remove the nuts and all thread one at a time and replace with the original bolts. The temporary studs make getting the oil pan bolt holes lined up easier when installing the oil pan. I first use sealer to stick the oil pan gasket to the block and no sealer on the pan flange. This way, if the oil pan needs to be removed later, the gasket won't have to be disturbed. Don't forget that the tabs at the rear of the oil pan gasket needs to be installed under the rear pan seal that fits in the groove on the rear main cap. Some have cut the tabs off the gasket and glued the gasket to the oil pan flange. Removing the gasket tabs at the rear and glueing the gasket to the pan is a very bad practice because it creates a weak spot at the rear pan seal for oil to leak. Good luck. Laying on your back installing an oil pan is a tough job.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 12:55 PM   #7
OL JENNY
Senior Member
 
OL JENNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Muscatine, IA
Posts: 202
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Thank you everyone, your advice is appreciated. Those of you that have done many help people like me that did this last in the late 70's or very early 80's. Needless to say I don't remember, and after removing the timing cover it looks like I did not do the best job back then.
OL JENNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 01:36 PM   #8
CarlG
Senior Member
 
CarlG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 8,411
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
... Laying on your back installing an oil pan is a tough job.
These help!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Oil Pan Snap-Ups.jpg (2.7 KB, 354 views)
__________________
Alaskan A's
Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
Model A Ford Club of America
Model A Restorers Club
Antique Automobile Club of America
Mullins Owner's Club
CarlG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 01:52 PM   #9
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,414
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlG View Post
These help!
Thats what I'm talking about!!!!!!! I forgot to mention to cut a slot in the top of the temporary studs before installation so as to make removal easy with a screwdriver.

Last edited by Purdy Swoft; 03-04-2014 at 04:14 PM.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 02:45 PM   #10
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 5,784
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
Thats what I'm talking about!!!!!!! I forgot to mention to cut a slot in the top of the temporary studs before installation so as to make removal easy.
Hey Purdy,
To be clear for those who have never seen what Carl post picture of....they are very nice plastic type material and were made/invented for modern engine use, but work well on any application (engine). They can be stored and used over/over. Well worth the small effort/investment to have/use !
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 02:49 PM   #11
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 5,784
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
i have 1 or 2 soaking at all times, never had a failure. i put a spot of silicone in the corners, it sticks to the pan or cover but not to the rope.
Hey Jim,
Yeah a 'turd' jar with oil sits on a shelf in shed . Situation now tho is that some are 'synthetic' material and want to float/reject soaking ! I use both though ! Caterpilar makes a commercial grade 'gasket maker and sealant' that is hard to match/beat...fyi .
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 04:11 PM   #12
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,952
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

I have done many engines in the past 50 years. Never ever soak one, never had a problem. Use grease after installed, and do not trim them.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 01:26 PM   #13
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,440
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

I only soaked the first one I did. Found out it wasn't needed and made an oil mess to install it. I install the seal dry, and push it into the slot as much as possible, then use a socket the same or slightly smaller than the pulley sleeve to form the seal to shape. I leave enough rope seal sticking above the cork or paper gasket to compress, but usually have to trim some off. About 1/8 to 1/4 inch above the cork gasket works fine for me, and I've never had a rope seal leak. After the rope seal is installed I squirt some oil on it, then coat it with grease.

Buick was still using rope seals in the 70's when I worked at the GM dealership.
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 10:16 PM   #14
H. L. Chauvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,179
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

One (1) experience:

Never soaked a front rope seal in oil in 50 years ...... never had a front oil leak in 50 years ...... always taught by "experienced" vintage mechanics to provide non-hardening Permatex No. 2 between dry rope seal and "stationary" metal on block & oil pan ...... axle grease between rope seal and rotating crankshaft.

Hmmmmmm ?

Does it really matter if one enjoys experimenting with other later new ideas, other new methods, and dismantling Model A Fords and repairing vintage components several times over and over?
H. L. Chauvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 10:40 PM   #15
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 13,995
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: Front Rope Seals-To Soak in Oil or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
One (1) experience:

Never soaked a front rope seal in oil in 50 years ...... never had a front oil leak in 50 years ...... always taught by "experienced" vintage mechanics to provide non-hardening Permatex No. 2 between dry rope seal and "stationary" metal on block & oil pan ...... axle grease between rope seal and rotating crankshaft.

Hmmmmmm ?

Does it really matter if one enjoys experimenting with other later new ideas, other new methods, and dismantling Model A Fords and repairing vintage components several times over and over?
As I said in the other thread that is on the same subject, Some soak, some don't. Some install dry, some use a little oil or grease. I don't think they, like you, would post a method that has not worked without stateing that it did not work.
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:40 AM.