312 Y Block valve cover studs

[Patrick brophy]

I am attempting to put the valve covers on my new rebuilt 312 Y block.I ordered new gaskets and when I went to put them on I found that the studs were too short.
After doing some research I found that there are two size studs for the Y Block motors,one for the steel valve covers and one aluminum fined valve covers.
I have the aluminum ones ,so I ordered the ones for them.
I received them today and they are the same size as the ones I have.
With the cork gasket on the valve covers,when I put the rubber bushing on the stud,the top of the stud is even with the top of the bushing. I cannot put the chrome washer nor the chrome acorn nut on the stud.
Any suggestions ?

[ALLTIN33]

MUMMERT Y-BLOCK sells two different lengths 3.75 and (4.25 used for aluminum valve covers I don't know what size you have. Best site for y-block parts maybe they got your order wrong ?

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by ALLTIN33

MUMMERT Y-BLOCK sells two different lengths 3.75 and (4.25 used for aluminum valve covers I don't know what size you have. Best site for y-block parts maybe they got your order wrong ?

I have used MUMMERT in the past, great people to work with ,in fact the rods and cam for this motor came from him.
The new studs that I got today are 4 1/8 inch long, which is the longer of the two lengths sold. It was the same as I already had.
It did not solve the issue.

[Dobie Gillis]

How about all thread cut to your desired length? Since you're using acorn nuts no one will know it's there except you.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

How about all thread cut to your desired length? Since you're using acorn nuts no one will know it's there except you.

The studs are duel thread. Course thread into the block, and fine thread into the acorn nut. The stud also serves as a bolt for the rocker arm. There is just a small amount of course threads at the bottom of the stud, and the upper portion of the stud is is fine thread. There is a flat and lock washer with a nut that is the second fastner for the rocker arm. One on each side of the tube.

[KULTULZ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Are you describing THUNDERBIRD ALUM COVERS or aftermarket?

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Are you describing THUNDERBIRD ALUM COVERS or aftermarket?

Thunderbird

[miker98038]

Years ago I read an article that suggested running a nut down the stud, putting the rubber washer on upside down inside the valve cover (seated on the new nut) then placing the valve cover in place. After a couple tries adjusting it you put just the chrome washer and acorn nut on. It sealed from the inside, and prevented over tightening the valve cover and squishing the valve cover to head gasket out by over tightening. I've never tried it, so I don't know. But if it works it might give you just enough to start the acorn nut, compress the gasket properly and make it work.

Too many cars and too many years to remember and explain it clearly.

[KULTULZ]

This is strange. Are the rocker covers GENUINE FORD or are they repros?

You might want to post this @ Y-Blocksforever.com as someone there has had to go through it.

Mike does have a good suggestion but why would you have to do it?

Here are the hardware specs -

[paul2748]

I used this method for the seals of the valley cover because I have heard they were too thick and the intake hit the bolts.


I cut the rubber piece in half so it was thinner.

[JMFL36]

I had a similar problem on my '54 Merc 256 Y-block. I removed the rubber grommets then put a regular nut (not acorn) and washer on and tightened the valve covers down. I then removed the nuts and washers, and replaced them with the rubber grommets and bushings. This had compressed the cork gaskets enough to get the acorn nuts started, and I tightened them down as needed. Be sure to coat the cork gaskets on both sides with gasket sealer. These Y-blocks are known to leak oil from the valve cover gaskets.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

This is strange. Are the rocker covers GENUINE FORD or are they repros?

You might want to post this @ Y-Blocksforever.com as someone there has had to go through it.

Mike does have a good suggestion but why would you have to do it?

Here are the hardware specs -

They are Genuine Ford valve covers.
At first I thought that the studs were the short ones and bought the longer ones ,not knowing just which ones I had.
I bought the valve cover gaskets from a Thunderbird jobber,so I am sure I have the correct gasket.
The rubber insert that fits under the chrome washer is not that thick,yet it is even with the top of the stud without the chrome washer and acorn nut.

Mike's idea is looking like a clever fix, if I cannot solve the issue.

[miker98038]

Not my idea. Best guess is it came from the y-nota-y-block build by Doc Frohmander. But half the time I can't remember lunch yesterday.

[KULTULZ]

I like the idea as the stop nut will prevent over torquing the rocker cover leading to gasket crush.

[miker98038]

There's that. Oil pans, valley covers, other engine valve covers, high torque isn't always your friend with sheet metal.

[KULTULZ]

I read an article that suggested running a nut down the stud, putting the rubber washer on upside down inside the valve cover (seated on the new nut) then placing the valve cover in place.

Are you putting the seal under the rocker cover or on top?

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Are you putting the seal under the rocker cover or on top?

Top.Never gave the underside a thought.
I guess you just push the rubber bushing on the stud and then press the valve cover down where it belongs.

Thanks KULTULZ,great find.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

Top. Never gave the underside a thought.

I guess you just push the rubber bushing on the stud and then press the valve cover down where it belongs.

Sorry about that. CRS has me and I did not fully comprehend the problem exactly. The seal is held against the shoulder of the stud right below the thread.

Let the board know how it went.

Now the other method is more for a performance engine. It is a good idea but a little more complicated -

[dmsfrr]

Is there a chance the grommets are now made a touch thicker than they used to be?

Engine gasket sets come with 6 of them. Two for the valley pan and four more for the valve covers.
Photo 1 from a couple years ago... when installing the intake manifold the front valley pan bolt under the thermostat housing was held too high by the grommet and wouldn't let the manifold sit down far enough to seal.
The rubber was removed from its attached washer and sanded down about 1/8" then reinstalled together.

I recently put the cast valve covers back on a freshly built '57 T-Bird engine and the studs just barely poked up thru the grommets. I almost had to do a repeat of the previous trick, but there was just barely enough of the stud for the nuts to start on. Photo 2, after a few weeks with some pressure on them they fit better now.

[miker98038]

My comments were to do what K's drawing shows, with the exception of a nut below the washer/grommet to give it something to hold it up and in position. Maybe that's not needed, as I said I've never tried it.

[Patrick brophy]

I thought I could just slide the bushing onto the stud and press it down with the valve cover. Not so.
The bushing was too loose and it just slide down the stud. I had to run a nut down and put a washer on top of that and than place the bushing on top.
I than had to run the nut up until the valve cover started to rock,and than back off until it stopped rocking.
I could see the bushing under the valve cover so I knew it was close.
Even then,the acorn nut just barely started on the stud.
Just one snag out of many.

[dmsfrr]

Some of the 'replacement' style studs may(?) be very slightly longer than the originals, if that will help.
4.25 instead of 4.125 ???
Call the Parts or Tech Help phone numbers at these example places to confirm.

https://hillsresto.com/

https://www.classictbird.com/

http://prestigethunderbird.com/

The engine in photo 2 comment #19 above came up short one of the original studs and the machinist put in one from his personal collection of original parts. I paid him back with another original, because the new ones aren't the same.
.

[KULTULZ]

The engine in photo 2 comment #19 above came up short one of the original studs and the machinist put in one from his personal collection of original parts. I paid him back with another original, because the new ones aren't the same.

It seems to me the problem is either the stud or grommet or a combination of the two. The stud should have a chamfer to stop the grommet. Most likely either late replacement stud/grommet is not made to original specs.

Same on valley pan grommets. Many describe having to cut the grommets to have the hold down bolts not to stick up too far.

Once upon a time and many GALAXIES away, the rocker cover and valley pan grommets were different. Now the manufacturers use the same grommet for both positions.

If having to use a nut on the stud to capture the grommet, it might be best once the proper height is established to run a pal nut under it if enough threads to keep the nut from running down the threads due to vibration losing the seal.

[KULTULZ]

...the rocker cover and valley pan grommets were different. Now the manufacturers use the same grommet for both positions.

Well, I stand correctd.

It seems the same grommet was used for both positions so the sizing problem(s) must be the aftermarket vendors.

Below are the specs to measure against the store bought -

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

It seems to me the problem is either the stud or grommet or a combination of the two. The stud should have a chamfer to stop the grommet. Most likely either late replacement stud/grommet is not made to original specs.

Same on valley pan grommets. Many describe having to cut the grommets to have the hold down bolts not to stick up too far.

Once upon a time and many GALAXIES away, the rocker cover and valley pan grommets were different. Now the manufacturers use the same grommet for both positions.

If having to use a nut on the stud to capture the grommet, it might be best once the proper height is established to run a pal nut under it if enough threads to keep the nut from running down the threads due to vibration losing the seal.

I thought about the pal nut,however once I ran the nut, with the washer, down to where I could test the height of the valve cover to where it would stop rocking, there was less then the height of a pal nut left showing on the stud.
Amazing, short on both accounts.
I am not sure if there would be that much vibration with the rubber grommet compressed.
I guess back in 1957 it just stayed under the valve cover using the snug rubber fit. But ,back in the day things were made of sterner stuff.

Thanks all.

[dmsfrr]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

. . .I guess back in 1957 it just stayed under the valve cover using the snug rubber fit. But ,back in the day things were made of sterner stuff.

Thanks all.

Under the valve cover? As shown in reply # 16 back on page 1 of this thread? I've never seen that before.
.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Under the valve cover? As shown in reply # 16 back on page 1 of this thread? I've never seen that before.

... hmm ...

Read Here - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic155032.aspx

Seems I (and FORD) were wrong yet again...

Now that is an ENGINEERING ILL.

KULTULZ - Gabbing helmet and going to bunker ...

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

... hmm ...

Read Here - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic155032.aspx

Seems I (and FORD) were wrong yet again...

Now that is an ENGINEERING ILL.

KULTULZ - Gabbing helmet and going to bunker ...

Well now, don't I feel silly.

It appears that I am right back where I started.

[Bkernell]

I have seen some of the TB aluminum valve covers cracked around the bolt holes because they were over tightened.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

Well now, don't I feel silly.

It appears that I am right back where I started.

Don't feel silly as I am the one that showed the Ill. The more that I thought about it, the rocker cover has wells and that grommet should sit in there fairly tightly.

Like the poster said (THANX!), they may possibly be damaged from over tightening. I would look for a slightly longer stud.


How much more top thread do you think you might need?

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Don't feel silly as I am the one that showed the Ill. The more that I thought about it, the rocker cover has wells and that grommet should sit in there fairly tightly.

Like the poster said (THANX!), they may possibly be damaged from over tightening. I would look for a slightly longer stud.


How much more top thread do you think you might need?

It would take at least 1/4 inch more.
When I put the valve cover on ,and the grommet (on top of ) the valve cover ,the stud is even with the top of the grommet. I still need to put the chrome washer on, and the thread the acorn nut on at least a thread or two in order to not strip the stud, or the acorn nut.

[KULTULZ]

Study the chart - https://www.mcmaster.com/double-end-...setup-studs-5/

... and see what sizes you need. Then we can search further.

In the FORD MPC, it calls for a retaining nut (acorn style for the BIRD I presume) and a lock-washer. It seems to me that one would want a flat washer under the lock-washer to prevent galling. Maybe figure the additional needed length for a flat washer also.

OEM size is 5/16" x 18 & 5/16" x 24 x 4 1/8" total length (doesn't give thread lengths values). Figure your wanted additional 1/2" on the one side that accepts the rocker cover hold down nut.

Ain't this something? It may be that a large NAPA store has a selection of these studs. They are also used to hold full float axles in heavy truck.

[KULTULZ]

I don't know what is in the kit, no ILL -

[flatrod]

Both of my Birds have never been messed with and have the grommets on top. I rebuilt the 56 312 and took those studs out. Thought I must of missed placed them as nothing fit back together. I think with the thicker cork gaskets for the aluminum covers and new grommets are just a bit thicker from the originals, but hard to say as they have been squished for 64 years. I just made new studs about a 1/2 longer as I remember.

[JMFL36]

My '54 Y-block manual shows 6570 on top of the valve cover. That other drawing that shows it beneath the valve cover just doesn't make sense.

[KULTULZ]

Consecrating on this, it seems the replacement rocker cover gaskets are too thick and the grommets are too thick. Many descriptions of having to reduce the thickness of the replacement grommets, especially on the valley pan cover. If you force the cover down to clear the stud, you may cause damage to the rocker cover ($$$) with too much torque. If the stud comes out too long, you may not get the correct torque value on the gasket as the acorn nut may run out of threads (bottoming out) before coming to the correct torque values.