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Old 03-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #1
Kurt in NJ
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Default What do you think of this Babbitt

This set of caps is ready to be cut to fit the crankshaft, I didn't pour them, but I know where it was done
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Old 03-25-2015, 08:29 AM   #2
J and M Machine
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Kurt: Looks like was peened with KRW tool ,not good enough.
if you are going to use them on your own car i would suggest peening them yourself. We have a special tip for our air hammer. We reduce air pressure and peen aross entire surface enusre a tight fit.
www.jandm-machine.com
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Old 03-25-2015, 08:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

ID yet to be machined. Ok with that.

Is it my eye or the distance between the camera and cap or do those "ramps" at exit and entrance go right to the shell?

Is this normal? Might these be thin at the flange/parting? A cast in ramp I might consider possible, but aren't the ramps normally machined as part of the grooving? And to leave SOMETHING at the cap and block mating surface?

Joe K

Edit: The J&M pix from the other thread is more what I might expect from the ramps. Smaller and leaving some metal at the match line.

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Old 03-25-2015, 10:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ View Post
This set of caps is ready to be cut to fit the crankshaft, I didn't pour them, but I know where it was done


They are N.O.S. Ford Caps!

Herm
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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ID yet to be machined. Ok with that.

Is it my eye or the distance between the camera and cap or do those "ramps" at exit and entrance go right to the shell?

Is this normal? Might these be thin at the flange/parting? A cast in ramp I might consider possible, but aren't the ramps normally machined as part of the grooving? And to leave SOMETHING at the cap and block mating surface?

Joe K

Edit: The J&M pix from the other thread is more what I might expect from the ramps. Smaller and leaving some metal at the match line.

That is the way we have always done it.

If the caps are poured right, they will not fail.

So always run the oil wells to the steel, to get the most capacity for the oil wells.

Herm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dave's Model A from Lincoln, Ne 038.jpg (179.3 KB, 182 views)
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File Type: jpg Dave's Model A from Lincoln, Ne 020.jpg (40.5 KB, 155 views)
File Type: jpg Dave's Model A from Lincoln, Ne 021.jpg (40.9 KB, 150 views)
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J and M Machine View Post
Kurt: Looks like was peened with KRW tool ,not good enough.
if you are going to use them on your own car i would suggest peening them yourself. We have a special tip for our air hammer. We reduce air pressure and peen aross entire surface enusre a tight fit.
www.jandm-machine.com
I was under the impression that the Babbitt should be peened while it is still hot/warm and somewhat malleable. I have one that was peened after it had cooled and the babbitt cracked and broke free of the cap. Darryl in a very warm and Sunny Fairbanks
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Model T and A babbitt that has failed. The first one is a Model A that was done buy a company that does several blocks and rods a year.
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File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 015.jpg (64.9 KB, 151 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 017.jpg (60.4 KB, 130 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 019.jpg (34.5 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 021.jpg (58.4 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 005.jpg (49.4 KB, 115 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 007.jpg (63.6 KB, 115 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 009.jpg (40.9 KB, 109 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 011.jpg (58.1 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 013.jpg (53.8 KB, 110 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 022.jpg (54.4 KB, 111 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 025.jpg (40.1 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 029.jpg (55.1 KB, 111 views)
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Old 03-25-2015, 02:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Yes, they are NOS,yes the rear cap was primed with air hammer, this is what you would get at the dealer when Babbitt was poured in the block -- new caps

I found some pictures and description of the process in some web reprints of American machinist, the Babbitt wasn't poured, it was done in an injection moulding machine
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Old 03-25-2015, 02:46 PM   #9
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Yes, they are NOS,yes the rear cap was primed with air hammer, this is what you would get at the dealer when Babbitt was poured in the block -- new caps

I found some pictures and description of the process in some web reprints of American machinist, the Babbitt wasn't poured, it was done in an injection moulding machine
Maybe, just the first Model A's were hand poured, as the movies I have seen, show that.

Herm.
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Old 03-25-2015, 04:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Could you explain to a novice at machining why peening has to be done ?

Why is hot pouring not sufficient ?

Does the babbit need to be compacted ?
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:55 PM   #11
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Could you explain to a novice at machining why peening has to be done ?

Why is hot pouring not sufficient ?

Does the babbit need to be compacted ?
Mr. Pooch, contrary to belief, when I was born, I didn't know S%$#,
but now I can answer that.

No. 1. 2. & 3. When babbitt is poured in a block warm, or cold, with out tinning, it will shrink away from the shell, nothing to grab on to. If it shrinks away, and it will, it will be loose in the block.

So being that the babbitt is not up against the block shell, you have to give it a big push to where it should be, with peening. A good side effect of peening is as you say compacting the babbitt. You have to do this while very hot, or it will fracture the babbitt against the shell wall, and you would not see untill the bearing went bad, in a few short miles, as many do.

So also if it isn't peened, the crank will do it for you when cold, and as of the many pictures on the form, you can see what happens.


Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol

Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing.

Thanks

Herm.
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Old 03-25-2015, 06:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Thanks for the explanation Herm, Pooch wasn't the only one wondering.
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Old 03-25-2015, 08:02 PM   #13
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Same here, thank you Herm for posting and the pictures. Learning some good stuff!!!!
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Old 03-25-2015, 08:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Thanks Herm, but you said one thing that I CAN answer.

The notch in an insert bearing is NOT to stop it from spinning.

It is just used to locate the shell.

Bearing crush is used to stop the spinning.
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Old 03-25-2015, 09:07 PM   #15
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Thanks Herm, but you said one thing that I CAN answer.

The notch in an insert bearing is NOT to stop it from spinning.

It is just used to locate the shell.

Bearing crush is used to stop the spinning.
Mr. Pooch, Yes the bearing has crush to keep it tight, all bearings have to.

The real name for the notch, is called a Locking Lip, funny they would use locking in a term like that.

So, all bearings have to have crush, that keeps the bearing tight to the walls of the shell.

All bearings have to have a way to lock the bearing from spinning.

Before the Locking Lip, bearings were locked with shims that hung into the part lines, or they had brass pins the stuck out of the bearing shell and the brass, or steel bearing shell sliped over them and locked them in place.

Many had Brass screws, could be one, or two, and that locked the bearing in.

Some had Brass rivets in them, 4 to a 1/2 shell.

You don't need a Locking Lip, to line two inserts up, any one can do that and get them even, but you always need some way to lock a bearing from spinning, and as you know, when a bearing goes bad, that won't even be enough help.

Thanks Mr. Pooch

Herm.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:00 PM   #16
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That is the way we have always done it.

If the caps are poured right, they will not fail.

So always run the oil wells to the steel, to get the most capacity for the oil wells.

Herm.
Herm,

That engine looks very familiar. Still running great after several thousand miles. Thanks!!!
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:05 PM   #17
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' Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol

Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing.'


If, say the holes in the block were not there, would a peened babbitt job actually be loose and fall out, if block was turned upside down ?.

Does it only hold on at the hole spigots?

Just interested, I always assumed without any knowledge the babbitt was adhered similar as a solder job would be, all along the backface and edges.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:56 PM   #18
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Herm,

That engine looks very familiar. Still running great after several thousand miles. Thanks!!!
Hey, Dave, I wonder about you once in a while.

I am glad you are making use of that nice original truck. It sure looks different then when you pulled it out of the old shed after 60 years.

I wish I had it, and you had a better one.

Take care,


Herm.
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:19 PM   #19
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' Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol

Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing.'


If, say the holes in the block were not there, would a peened babbitt job actually be loose and fall out, if block was turned upside down ?.

Does it only hold on at the hole spigots?

Just interested, I always assumed without any knowledge the babbitt was adhered similar as a solder job would be, all along the backface and edges.

Try taking a large chunk of cast iron and getting it hot enough to tin it. Good luck! that is exactly what it would take to make the babbitt adhere. As the babbitt cools rather quickly (as the alloy requires to maintain it's functional properties), it indeed shrinks away from the block. The babbitt needs to be peened to expand it back tight against the saddle. The poured babbitt does form cleats in the drilled pockets in the saddle but have little strength by themselves if the babbitt is loose in the saddle. As Herm inferred, something in the babbitt will break if the shell is left floating. The lug or cleat formed in the babbit COULD sheer but the area of the shell above it is typically a weaker link and apt to break away from the rest of the shell.

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Old 03-25-2015, 11:27 PM   #20
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' Now many people mistakenly beleave that the anchor holes in the block are to hold the babbitt from falling out, and it only works when you hold the block right side up. lol

Not true, the anchor holes ar there to keep the babbitt insert from spinning, as a notch on a modern bearing. If the babbitt isn't peened, those anchor don't hold anything in, they just bust out on the main part of the bearing.'


If, say the holes in the block were not there, would a peened babbitt job actually be loose and fall out, if block was turned upside down ?.

Does it only hold on at the hole spigots?

Just interested, I always assumed without any knowledge the babbitt was adhered similar as a solder job would be, all along the backface and edges.
Mr. Pooch, Yes, after peening, the babbitt would be perfectly formed to the shell, but there would be nothing to stop the bearing from turning from the force of the crank shaft. A knife blade could lift it easily right out of the front and center bearing, and the flanges on the rear would be a little harder, but would have to be pried out with small bars.

Chevy 4 cylinders used solid babbitt inserts, in there front, and rear bearings. They were Jig poured, and had one single lug to keep them from spinning. Same thing as T's, A's, and B's. I will list some pictures, of the replacement bearings for the Chevy Fours.

Thanks, Mr Pooch,

Herm.
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File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 001.jpg (49.1 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 002.jpg (41.5 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 003.jpg (39.2 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 007.jpg (35.3 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 008.jpg (36.5 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg Chev. Four Inserts 009.jpg (36.8 KB, 35 views)
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Old 03-26-2015, 01:39 AM   #21
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Thank you all for explaining .

I can now peruse the babbitt topics with a little more knowledge and understanding.
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Old 03-26-2015, 01:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

So has anyone tried boring an A block to take babbitt inserts like the chevy4's did? Sounds like a good compromise between poured bearings and inserts.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:19 AM   #23
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Thank you all for explaining .

I can now peruse the babbitt topics with a little more knowledge and understanding.
I am sorry Mr. Pooch, I just hope I didn't tell you more then I know.

Herm.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:22 AM   #24
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So has anyone tried boring an A block to take babbitt inserts like the chevy4's did? Sounds like a good compromise between poured bearings and inserts.
While they both work very well, I don't think there would be any advantage to do so, not if they both can be done well.

Herm.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:33 AM   #25
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

Concerning the comments on the purpose of locking tabs on insert bearings, the new Chrysler V8's do not have locking tabs, they depend on crush fit to hold the insert in place, and I have seen them spin the inserts.
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Old 03-26-2015, 09:21 AM   #26
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Concerning the comments on the purpose of locking tabs on insert bearings, the new Chrysler V8's do not have locking tabs, they depend on crush fit to hold the insert in place, and I have seen them spin the inserts.
In 1977 I was working for a MoPar dealership, and a new Dodge van had a very faint engine ticking noise. I pulled the pan and found one of the rod cap bearing notches was cut in the wrong location. So the tab was pressed flat and that bearing was putting pressure against the crankshaft journal. I filed a new notch in the rod cap and installed a new bearing and all was well. Hard to believe they now have dropped the locking tabs.
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:48 PM   #27
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Yeh, seems a dumb move to delete the locating notches, ( I won't called them 'locking tabs'), the notches are to locate the inserts not only sideways, but to accurately locate the oil hole.

Any hamfister then could drop the inserts in anywhere and bolt it up.
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

There is an advantage to babbitt shell inserts, no requirement for block heating and complex pouring when the complex pour can be done overseas and out in the middle of nowhere workshops can place the insert years later. (Overcomes the only problem i can find with poured babbitt)

Just when chrysler was having early engine deaths they deleted the locating notch? i can't understand why.
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Old 03-26-2015, 03:55 PM   #29
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There is an advantage to babbitt shell inserts, no requirement for block heating and complex pouring when the complex pour can be done overseas and out in the middle of nowhere workshops can place the insert years later. (Overcomes the only problem i can find with poured babbitt)

Just when chrysler was having early engine deaths they deleted the locating notch? i can't understand why.
Yeah, the other guys at the shop just shook their heads when I read that to them. Soon after a Dodge (Durango, if I remember) came in with a knock-had spun a rod bearing. Was under warranty so off to the dealer for an extended period. Maybe this is a Fiat idea to save a few coins.
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Old 03-26-2015, 05:49 PM   #30
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when should Babbitt should peened? warm or cold? Make more than one pour, and peen after each pour? If you did not peen at all, wouldn't the Babbitt fall out line-boring?
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Old 03-26-2015, 06:14 PM   #31
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They are N.O.S. Ford Caps!

Herm
Hey Herm,
Great info/instructions and pictures that you are passing on here, thanks for sharing !
You go to front of line for instant ID of nos Ford Caps !

You also posted pics of other caps that made me remember some 'caps' that I had put in a box half century ago. Here they are, main caps. Heavy and think made of bronze/brass (?). Quiz; What are they for/from ?

Never mind the dirt on Babbitt faces , from sitting forever .
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File Type: jpg 002.jpg (54.3 KB, 37 views)

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Old 03-26-2015, 06:54 PM   #32
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Hey Herm,
Great info/instructions and pictures that you are passing on here, thanks for sharing !
You go to front of line for instant ID of nos Ford Caps !

You also posted pics of other caps that made me remember some 'caps' that I had put in a box half century ago. Here they are, main caps. Heavy and think made of bronze/brass (?). Quiz; What are they for/from ?

Never mind the dirt on Babbitt faces , from sitting forever .

I would say 1929 to 1930-31 Chevys Six's?

Herm.
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Old 03-26-2015, 07:30 PM   #33
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Originally Posted by 372dart View Post
when should Babbitt should peened? warm or cold? Make more than one pour, and peen after each pour? If you did not peen at all, wouldn't the Babbitt fall out line-boring?

Mr. Dart, Babbitt should be peened just as soon as you can remove the mold, with out breaking the babbitt lining.

The colder the babbitt gets, the more of a chance you will fracture the babbitt, and the bad thing is you can't see it from the out side.

I use a pneumatic hammer, it covers 100% of the area, a little at a time.

I have seen loose babbitt that you could move in the block, but that is rare.

You may not notice it while align Boring.

Thanks,

Herm.
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Old 03-26-2015, 07:54 PM   #34
hardtimes
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
I would say 1929 to 1930-31 Chevys Six's?

Herm.
Hey Herm,
Wow, you are good at this !
Yup, 1930 chev six ! I had a Lost Angeles engine company ,i.e.- Egge Machine redo my short block and got these back with new in block.
Back in about '60 threw them in a box of other '30 chev parts and remembered them when you commented here.
BTW they have no 'tangs/locator' of sets .
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Old 03-26-2015, 10:59 PM   #35
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
Hey Herm,
Wow, you are good at this !
Yup, 1930 chev six ! I had a Lost Angeles engine company ,i.e.- Egge Machine redo my short block and got these back with new in block.
Back in about '60 threw them in a box of other '30 chev parts and remembered them when you commented here.
BTW they have no 'tangs/locator' of sets .

BTW they have no 'tangs/locator' of sets. "END QUOTE"


No they don't Mr. Hardtimes, but what they do have is replaceable upper locating dowel pins in the block for the hole in the top shell to slide over, so the bearings don't spin.

Herm.
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: What do you think of this Babbitt

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Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
Yeah, the other guys at the shop just shook their heads when I read that to them. Soon after a Dodge (Durango, if I remember) came in with a knock-had spun a rod bearing. Was under warranty so off to the dealer for an extended period. Maybe this is a Fiat idea to save a few coins.
I guess Chrysler just doesn't get it. (Fiat anyway) When they are going broke again because they are building pure junk like they used to, I wonder if the Fed will bail them out again or just cut them loose

Was told by a Dodge mechanic friend just last night that the 9 spd. automatic tranny they are boasting about is now showing signs of failure. Expensive failure.
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