Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-01-2019, 01:58 PM   #1
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hallo,

I have an uncertain question.

After opening the valve chamber, I discovered a strange hole in the front open to the timing gear chamber. It looks like a very irregular breakthrough.

Is that correct?


Thank you all for helpfull answers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010022KRR.jpg (88.2 KB, 174 views)
File Type: jpg P1010031.jpg (67.9 KB, 164 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:06 PM   #2
100IH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 970
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

It is ugly and not the German way. The pathway for oil to flow over the timing gears. One place where labor money was saved. The guy who bashed the hole there in the block only had time for two hits with the hammer. Those who have used a die grinder to detail the ragged edges never saw an improvement but they slept much better.
100IH is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-01-2019, 02:08 PM   #3
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 2,329
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

You can see a similar hole here in this block being rebuilt:

alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:10 PM   #4
Tudortomnz
Senior Member
 
Tudortomnz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,242
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hi Werner
No, that does not look correct! In mid May a hole [3/8"] was provided to get extra oil to the rear cam bearing & earlier blocks were sometimes drilled for this, but not to timing gears. Looks like someone had a mishap or misguided attempt to improve lubrication. I personally would not worry ; at a later time if you have to take the engine down, you could get it fixed. Cheers.
Tudortomnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:13 PM   #5
abachman3
Senior Member
 
abachman3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Western Springs, IL
Posts: 323
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

I too, have seen a number of blocks that look about like this one in question. I have heard that that is just how the were!
abachman3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:32 PM   #6
MAG
Senior Member
 
MAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 925
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I bought a brand new (Not rebuilt) Diamond engine that had never been assembled. It had the busted out hole above the timing gear for timing gear lubrication.
Worked on many Model A engines and never saw one without the busted out hole above the timing gear.
__________________
I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!
MAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 02:33 PM   #7
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,389
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Normal.
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 03:54 PM   #8
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,471
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Perfectly normal from what I have seen in many engine blocks. It might be a crude way of doing things but IT WORKS. What else do you need?
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 04:19 PM   #9
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Normal. Ford did vary the positioning of the hole to vary with a change in valve chamber oil "level." This occurred about the time the timing cover oil return pipe was lowered - ostensibly a move to "reduce oil consumption." August 1929 IIRC.

Steve Plucker may have information on this - he's done a "type study" on block details - I think it's online.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 04:45 PM   #10
1955cj5
Senior Member
 
1955cj5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,576
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Here is a picture of the hole, seen from the timing gear side, taken when my engine was being rebuilt.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1090103.JPG (162.4 KB, 288 views)
__________________
Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62
1955cj5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2019, 09:56 PM   #11
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 4,174
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Steve Plucker's "type study" of Model A Engine Blocks is "ongoing."

Joe K

http://www.plucks329s.org/studies/studies.htm
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 03:39 AM   #12
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Thank you all for the helpful hints about the "mystic hole". I am calm now! -

At Steeve Plucker "Pluck": What extraordinarily valuable diligence works!
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 07:29 AM   #13
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,429
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

The hole was in the casting pattern, and not bashed-in. Having taken apart many engines, the hole in question is rarely nice and round. More often it is irregular.

The concern with an irregular hole in the block casting is that the bottom of it is about level with the top of the nearby lifter bore. If the hole extends too low, it lowers the oil level in the valve chamber, so I paste a piece of sheet metal with a round hole in it to the front wall of the valve chamber. JB Weld works well for this fix.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Valve Chamber (2).jpg (106.9 KB, 205 views)
File Type: jpg Engine Block Looking Fwd In Valve Chamber.jpg (11.6 KB, 200 views)
__________________
Bob Bidonde

Last edited by Bob Bidonde; 11-02-2019 at 07:37 AM.
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 07:32 AM   #14
Ray64
Senior Member
 
Ray64's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grafton,OHIO
Posts: 727
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Ive knocked a lot of those holes in v8 blocks at the Cleveland Ford Casting plant. We used an air tool with a round chisel designed for that job RAY
Ray64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 07:49 AM   #15
nick c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 260
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Restorer magazine jan/feb 1998, pg 22, one full written page on busted out hole in valve chamber. The hole must be higher than the first dam in order for the oil to build up and run back over the first dam to get to the center and rear main. The article states that most likely it was busted out to facilitate replacing timing gear. When I rebuilt my engine I followed the instructions, used a piece of flat metal 1/8 x 1 x 2 drilled one hole 1/4" it, and one hole the web of busted out area, fastened to web with a 1/4" bolt and jb weld, just above the level of the first dam. Then drilled another hole below the top of the new dam, 5/16 diameter to feed oil to the timing gear.
nick c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 02:34 PM   #16
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 1,151
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Hello everybody,

I thought again. (Last night, the whole day ...) I can not believe that the breakthrough was "just hit somewhere" inside. Because then the correct height of the overflow for the oil pipe is at the wrong (too low) level.

I measured it.

1) The lowest overflow edge from the return opening in the valve cover.

2) The lower edge of the breakthrough. I have marked marks outside. (see picture)

It can be clearly seen that the lower edge of the break hole is about 1/4 inch below the discharge edge of the return pipe.

Then the return pipe would make no sense, because the oil level does not reach the return opening.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010085.jpg (69.2 KB, 89 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A, Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules W 2000, 1976; (with NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine), Canadian version
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 02:58 PM   #17
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 8,711
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Don't forget the rear of the engine sits lower than the front.


Bob
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 06:10 PM   #18
nick c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 260
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

There is no return pipe, the pipe you see is the oil supply, the oil returns over top of the front dam.
nick c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 10:14 PM   #19
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,054
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick c View Post
There is no return pipe, the pipe you see is the oil supply, the oil returns over top of the front dam.

The black pipe on the outside of the engine from the valve cover to the block is indeed a oil return.


Where would the oil go when driving up a long hill?
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 08:45 AM   #20
nick c
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 260
Default Re: Mysterious hole in valve chamber?

It would all go to the center and rear main then to oil return pipe on outside engine. Another question might be where would all the oil go on a long down hill run if the jagged hole was too low.
nick c is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.