How have you kept your engine warm at night outside?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BillM

I think that diode is connected backward for a positive ground system in the link you posted. See http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_...html#03247.png . Also a diode will drop about .7 volts across it; a momentary switch or relay would be more efficient.

Do you have any spare condensers on hand ?; it would be interesting to see what they measured after a night in the freezer.

Thanks for the info. It was very helpful.
Without the coil booster circuit the coil is already getting 3-4 volts through the resistor so I only need 2-3 more volts out of the booster circuit to make up for what the resistor is taking away so a .7 volt loss out of 6 will still leave plenty to make up for the 2-3 volt loss.

I may just freeze one of my extra condensers and see how it changes its capacitance.

[bigvince]

I once worked with a guy that came from the northern area of Ontario Canada and he told me it wasn't uncommon for folks to simply light newspapers under the car to heat up the oil. Don't do this at home!

[1952henry]

Old Henry, I have one of these. Never tried it and probably won't. Must have been the cat's meow back in the 50s.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=6

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I think I'll install a coil booster line from the starter terminal on the starter solenoid to the battery side of the coil after the resistor (bypassing it) with a diode in the line to keep the current from running back to the starter and keeping it spinning after the solenoid cuts off (as happened to me when I tried the same thing before without the diode). That should help overcome the robbing of current to the coil by the starter, particularly when cold. Here are the details: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fil...k%20Start1.jpg

Henry,
You can bypass the resistor by installing a Ford solenoid from a later car. They have built-in resistor bypass. There's no need to start messing with diodes and such.

Regretfully, there's nothing you can do to prevent the starter from robbing current, and more to the point, we're not worried about CURRENT to the coil because it's the VOLTAGE that matters. The battery is still the sole battery; running separate jumpers from the same battery does not isolate anything because everything still terminates at the same battery. Only a dual battery system would accomplish what you said.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Henry,
You can bypass the resistor by installing a Ford solenoid from a later car. They have built-in resistor bypass. There's no need to start messing with diodes and such.

Regretfully, there's nothing you can do to prevent the starter from robbing current, and more to the point, we're not worried about CURRENT to the coil because it's the VOLTAGE that matters. The battery is still the sole battery; running separate jumpers from the same battery does not isolate anything because everything still terminates at the same battery. Only a dual battery system would accomplish what you said.

Thanks for your thoughts. I had considered your ideas.
A couple of problems I see in trying to use a later solenoid that has the resistor bypass terminal on it: 1) My research indicates that such solenoids were not used until the electrical system switched to 12 volt. I'm still at 6 volt so probably wouldn't work. 2) It costs more than a $2.00 diode. 3) It would not be authentic to my '47 and would be a more obvious alteration than merely adding another wire from my current solenoid to my coil. 4) Such would not save installing an additional wire since such would still be necessary with the later coil but would add the labor of removing and replacing the starter solenoid. So, all things considered, it looks like the diode is the better approach for me. But, thanks for your thoughts and suggestion.

As for the benefit of the coil bypass circuit for the starter robbing the voltage to the coil, here's how it does help. The coil should not really need the full 6 volts to operate correctly, let's say it only needs 4 but does need 4. With a full 6+ volts from the battery dropped a couple of volts by the resistor the coil gets what it needs - 4 volts. But, if the drain of the starter reduces the available voltage to only 4 volts and the resistor reduces that further the coil only gets 3 or less and doesn't work well. But, with the resistor bypass circuit, when the starter drains the voltage to 4 the coil still gets 4 and works fine. Of course, if the battery is not fully charged the voltages are even lower and nothing works right even with the bypass circuit and it all needs a boost from the 12 volt battery I keep in the trunk.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[Old Henry]

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Last night I installed the "coil booster" aka "resistor bypass" circuit from the starter terminal on the solenoid to the battery side of the coil. Wow! Does it make a difference! Haven't tried it with cold starting but the engine sure starts faster even at 60°. It used to crank for a second or two before firing. Now it starts as soon as I push the starter button. It was an easy install using the diode. Oh yeah, there was one more thing (next post).

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Old Henry:
The last thought I have is you have had your share of electrical problems this past year,
I know you don't want to hear it but it may be time for a complete wiring up grade.

Last night as I was installing the coil booster/resister bypass circuit I discovered the likely cause of many of my intermittent electrical problems.
As I was running the new wire past the point where the ground strap from the engine connected to the firewall I noticed what looked like melted plastic on the end of that nut/bolt and wondered why. I pulled it off and realized it was the nylon insert for that lock nut I put on to lock it down on the connection so it wouldn't come loose. I touched the ground strap and it was quite loose! How that nylon lock nut came loose I don't know but it did. I replaced it with a regular lock washer, put some di-electric grease between the strap and the firewall (which I'd previously sanded clean of all paint) and cranked it down. Took a test drive and the starter worked a ton better and my generator charged consistently instead of intermittently like it has done annoyingly for quite a while.

Sometimes we just get lucky even if we're not very smart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yeah Walt, and without excuses, you understand what a "well-maintained" vehicle really means, including all of it's ancillary systems. DD

Originally Posted by Old Henry

If there is something more I could do to "well-maintain" my vehicle I don't know what that would be. I think Old Henry is probably maintained as religiously as any flathead there is, particularly any that are driven over 1,000 miles per month, in accordance with all manufacturer recommendations that I have been able to find and used to create the maintenance schedule attached. If there is some maintenance item that I might have missed that would affect cold starting please tell me.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Last night as I was installing the coil booster/resister bypass circuit I discovered the likely cause of many of my intermittent electrical problems.
As I was running the new wire past the point where the ground strap from the engine connected to the firewall I noticed what looked like melted plastic on the end of that nut/bolt and wondered why. I pulled it off and realized it was the nylon insert for that lock nut I put on to lock it down on the connection so it wouldn't come loose. I touched the ground strap and it was quite loose! How that nylon lock nut came loose I don't know but it did. I replaced it with a regular lock washer, put some di-electric grease between the strap and the firewall (which I'd previously sanded clean of all paint) and cranked it down. Took a test drive and the starter worked a ton better and my generator charged consistently instead of intermittently like it has done annoyingly for quite a while.

Sometimes we just get lucky even if we're not very smart.

The above would be a prime example of what I meant when I previously made the reference to "well-maintained" and "ancillary systems". Hopefully, you now have some realization that changing oil and cleaning the breather cap (as noted in your earlier-posted maintenance schedule) represents only a drop in the bucket of what is involved when one finally understands what "well-maintained" really encompasses, especially when it come to an un-restored, antique automobile. DD

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The above would be a prime example of what I meant when I previously made the reference to "well-maintained" and "ancillary systems". Hopefully, you now have some realization that changing oil and cleaning the breather cap (as noted in your earlier-posted maintenance schedule) represents only a drop in the bucket of what is involved when one finally understands what "well-maintained" really encompasses, especially when it come to an un-restored, antique automobile. DD

10-4 good buddy. I see what you mean.
Good thing I got lucky (again) since I didn't turn out to be too smart.
(Better add "Lucky" to my signature lest anyone suppose that my very good fortune actually comes from any superior skill level.)

[scooder]

So what made the difference, the resistor bypass or the tight earth (ground) connection?
The melted plastic on the earth point and a loose nyloc nut. How's this idea, earth connection gets hot nylon melts and nut comes loose? How clean is the other end of the earth strap? Big enough? Battery earth good both ends? Starter connection? In this scenario (heat, melt,loose nut) something's up, bad connection somewhere.
Worth a good looking over I fancy.
Martin.

[Old Henry]

This is my speculation and slight memory of why that strap may have been loose: After my engine was rebuilt last June I installed it, sanded off the paint under that strap, (new strap) and screwed it down with the nylon lock nut. Then, after the engine was broken in I re-torqued the head nuts and may have (have some slight memory) loosened that strap bolt on the firewall to allow the engine end of it to turn when re-torqueing and forgot to retighten it. So, it may well have been loose since then. So, when I tried to start, the current heated up that bolt and nut because of the loose connection and melted the nylon insert. It all fits with the way my starter has been struggling for months and the smell of burning I've had on occasion when I tried too long to start. The starter has not worked as well as it does now with that tight connection for many months.

Good thing none of that ever stopped me from having an absolute ton of fun, and even adventure, for 13,000 miles since then including eight road trips totaling 6,150 miles.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

That could have been except that when I pulled the choke out it cranked faster and I could smell the gas coming out of the exhaust pipe so concluded that I was getting plenty of gas. Even turned my electric fuel pump on just in case it was vapor locked! (Yeah, sure.)

This reply brings up another problem that happens quite often in really cold weather. If it cranks faster and you can smell gas, the engine is very likely to be flooded with too much gas.

That comes from too much choke. And in your case it is made worse by the electric fuel pump. The plugs get wet and foul, the extra gas washes all the oil from the cylinders and takes away the compression. That is why the engine suddenly cranks over faster.
Even at -20 F you need less choke than you think. Pull it all the way out for about one revolution and then push it back in about halfway until it starts. Then play with until it runs smoothly.

Starting any older car in the cold is a matter of getting to know the car. They all have personalities and you have to learn that by trial and errors. Some require little choke and others need more. Some need a pump or two on the accelerator but others will flood out if you even touch the accelerator.

If you grow up in the North you learn that pretty quick but if you are where it never gets really cold you may never get the experience. Strange things can happen to a car in the cold.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

This reply brings up another problem that happens quite often in really cold weather. If it cranks faster and you can smell gas, the engine is very likely to be flooded with too much gas.

That comes from too much choke. And in your case it is made worse by the electric fuel pump. The plugs get wet and foul, the extra gas washes all the oil from the cylinders and takes away the compression. That is why the engine suddenly cranks over faster.
Even at -20 F you need less choke than you think. Pull it all the way out for about one revolution and then push it back in about halfway until it starts. Then play with until it runs smoothly.

Starting any older car in the cold is a matter of getting to know the car. They all have personalities and you have to learn that by trial and errors. Some require little choke and others need more. Some need a pump or two on the accelerator but others will flood out if you even touch the accelerator.

If you grow up in the North you learn that pretty quick but if you are where it never gets really cold you may never get the experience. Strange things can happen to a car in the cold.

Yeah. It floods pretty easily when the spark plugs aren't firing well if at all.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[blucar]

Flooding an engine with fuel was a very common problem back in the day when Early Ford V8's were common every day drivers.. Usually the flooding problem was caused by the float and/or float needle valve sticking. However, the flooding could be caused by to much choke or pumping the throttle. A simple solution to the flooding problem was to just walk away from the Ford for awhile. Letting the car rest for awhile let the battery recoup and the fuel to evaporate..
Proper grounding is very often a problem that is easily overlooked. Like the use of a ny-lck nut, with only half as many threads, in lieu of a conventional nut and a star washer.. Many people are probably not aware of just how common the use of star washers were during the '30's-40's..
I recently had a problem on one of my projects involving power windows on a '30 model car.. I installed the windows which were made by a very good company in NC..
The windows worked perfectly, then the car went to the upholstery shop. When the car was ready for pickup after many weeks, the drives side window would not work and the passenger side would slowly go down, needing help to go up.
Questioning the shop owner about the problems, he went on the defensive, claiming the system was junk.. The wires were to small, no relays, and the switches were of poor quality.
He produced a system that he liked which used heavier wiring, relays and GM switches. The motors appeared to be heavier and the system was cable operated..
The system I have is gear driven, utilizing the original tracks and glass runs..
I told the upholster to leave the car alone, I was taking it home..
I called the widow manufacture in NC, told them my problem and was told that the system I had was based on a GM system that is common in GM car of the late '70's/80's.. I was also told that the motors were reversed polarity motors that were smaller because they did not need double windings to reverse the motors.. The problem was GROUNDING..
It took us two hours to find the problem, checking each wire and connector.. We finally found a ground wire that had been broken off at the connector, a result of the upholster pulling on the wire, in lieu of the connector. The installation of a new connector end solved the problem..
Of course the upholster did not want to believe me when I told him the problem. Of course the proper function of the windows was just shrugged off by him...

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for your thoughts. I had considered your ideas.
A couple of problems I see in trying to use a later solenoid that has the resistor bypass terminal on it: 1) My research indicates that such solenoids were not used until the electrical system switched to 12 volt. I'm still at 6 volt so probably wouldn't work. 2) It costs more than a $2.00 diode. 3) It would not be authentic to my '47 and would be a more obvious alteration than merely adding another wire from my current solenoid to my coil.

Henry I posted a link back at post 26 for a 6volt solenoid with the by pass post. $19. Put your resistor back under the dash like it was originally and the only thing on your engine that would not look original would be the solenoid and a wire. Once done you don't have to worry about a switch,diodes, or volts.

6 volt 4 term ford tractor solenoid.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/ford_..._2676_prd1.htm

I do like the diode setup though... ha :]'

[AKCJ]

Just read the entire thread and feel smarter (well, at least more informed).


I have a lot of experience starting cars in the cold and I agree with most of what was posted - especially the items from Alaska Jim even though he's from the warmer part of our state (joking).


The electric heaters can work well if you have access to electric power. When you're out of town you can use a camp stove (coleman or whatever) under the car. The newer backpacker stoves don't take up much room in the trunk. The open flames are somewhat worrisome so the stove method is not the best but it does work if you're in a pinch. You can put a frying pan on top of the stove to (sort of) provide a barrier between the flame and the engine. I've done this several times but don't do this if you're not sure of what you're doing.


I haven't used my Mr. Buddy propane heater yet for cold weather starting but it's an idea. Also, we used to use charcoal in a metal pan under the car before we got electric power at the cabin but that was back in the 70's.


Someone mentioned using high octane gas. This is not what you want for cold weather starting. The higher octane means the fuel is harder to light off. Good for higher compression engines for more power but bad for winter use.


Glad to hear the electrical problem is sorted out.

[Buzzard II]

Block heater (in freeze out plug hole) and 2 batteries starts my 7.3 International Diesel F-250. I also get instant heat! It's been in the teens and single digits and below zero a couple of times here in New Jersey this winter. Good luck! Bob

[Teich]

Read all the posts about Prof Henry's adventure starting Old Henry outside, thinking I have to do that as well. Thought about different ways to warm the engine stoves under the engine,oil pan heater held on the pan Henry's heaters??? So I went out today -41* on the wrong side of ZERO, key on let electric fuel pump do its thing pushed the start button-- it cranked and cranked then it fired then it ran lots of choke and pump the foot feed but it stayed running, Good thing I changed to 5-30 GTX in the fall, as Prof Henry found out if everything is as it should be the old Ford will run! Got it running so I can bring it into shpo to change the torque tube and repack wheel brearings for next summer. Laurie

[V8COOPMAN]

Anyone who "pumps the foot feed" is probably at least 29 years old. Haven't heard that term in eons. DD

[The Hot Rod Grille]

I bought this engine heater at Hershey in the early 1970's. It has a wire hook to hang it from the radiator support rods and another hook on the base to support it when hung over the wishbone. The label says to use white kerosene. I've never used it as I was a bit afraid to have a flame in the area of the fuel line and carb, but it is a cool shelf display item.

Jim