Good photo of Skip's impeller?

[Old Henry]

Anyone got a good photo of Skip Haney's impeller that he puts in the water pumps? The one on his web site is not very good. I'm wanting to compare it with my upgraded pumps from C&G to see the difference and decide whether it's enough to pay $200.00 to replace my impellers with Skips.

Anyone got a good photo?

[Vic Piano]

Old Henry, with Skips pumps you get more than just impellers, Skip goes through the pumps and completely rebuilds them, in addition, you get Skip, who stands behind what he builds which is more then you can say about most "over the counter" parts places. Skip rebuilt two sets of pumps for me and I'm getting ready to send him the pumps off of our '39 LZ. For my money, I’d go with Skip every time.

[Tim Ayers]

For my money, I’d go with Skip every time.[/QUOTE]


Vic- Well said and couldn't agree more.

[Steves46]

Same here.

[Shadetree]

Running Skip's on my `35 for 3-4 years and they have been faultless.

[oldbugger]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Anyone got a good photo of Skip Haney's impeller that he puts in the water pumps? The one on his web site is not very good. I'm wanting to compare it with my upgraded pumps from C&G to see the difference and decide whether it's enough to pay $200.00 to replace my impellers with Skips.

Anyone got a good photo?

No photo, but he gets my vote also, great guy to deal with

[turnpikecrusier]

I went with Skips,good stuff!

[rotorwrench]

His adds in the V8 Times have little pictures. Now if I just had a scanner that was worth a damn.

[Ross F-1]

He may be worried that Speedy Bill will send the picture to his compadres in China to copy... oops, too late

[Charlie ny]

Lest we fail to mention it was George Mitchell and Skip Haney that ushered in the
spiral impeller. EVERYONE else jumped on the band wagon much later in the game.
I spoke to George at the V8 Meet in Frederick Maryland a long time ago. We stood
and observed his '39 1/2 ton happily idling away by Kens booth, for a hour...it was in
the high 80's to mid 90's as I recall. Just a tip o' the hat to the real visionaries.
Charlie ny

[B-O-B]

I sent Skip a set of pumps for my 34. They were NOS but I wanted his touch on them. It was a year or two before I got around to installing them. It wasn't too long before one had a seeping leak not bad just irritating. Called Skip & he took care of the problem W O a problem & no charge & prompt. I would like to see other suppliers do that after the part sat for a couple of Years. He gets my business. You get what you pay for.

[wga]

Henry - not running Skips, used another rebuilder here on the west coast. Nice work.

This may be the only pics...

http://www.fordcollector.com/water_pumps.htm

[G.M.]

Charlie it was run for 2 hours and the temperature that day was 100. The temperature never got to 180 at a fast idle. It also came down in temperature when we raced it a little from the very fast idle. Don't forget this truck has a shrould and a 6 bladed industrial fan.

Henry I believe you requested pictures a long while ago and I brought a box full of impellers home to take pictures and I'm looking at the box from where I'm sitting. Will try to take pictures this week. Very busy fixing my home of 34 years to sell, purchased a condo. G.M.

[KGS]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Charlie it was run for 2 hours and the temperature that day was 100. The temperature never got to 180 at a fast idle. It also came down in temperature when we raced it a little from the very fast idle. Don't forget this truck has a shrould and a 6 bladed industrial fan.

Henry I believe you requested pictures a long while ago and I brought a box full of impellers home to take pictures and I'm looking at the box from where I'm sitting. Will try to take pictures this week. Very busy fixing my home of 34 years to sell, purchased a condo. G.M.

Moving over with Jack and Connie?

[G.M.]

Right next door. G.M.

[elwood]

iv got 3 sets of skips pumps.
i realy cant compare becouse all my vehicles have his pumps on them, but none of them have ever overheated.

[keith oh]

I don't understand what you folks are talking about when you say spiral impellers Skip uses. I sent my 35 pumps to Skip a couple of years ago and the only change in the impellers was a little longer vanes, that I could see. I am not complaining, as they work well,just curious.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by keith oh

I don't understand what you folks are talking about when you say spiral impellers Skip uses. I sent my 35 pumps to Skip a couple of years ago and the only change in the impellers was a little longer vanes, that I could see. I am not complaining, as they work well,just curious.

If you look at his web ad, the turbine impellers are only for 37-48. The 32-36 just get the "new improved high volume impeller": http://www.fordcollector.com/water_pumps.htm

[G.M.]

Try [email protected]

[JM 35 Sedan]

Visual comparison won't tell the whole story. An actual test comparison would be necessary. I would guess the other sources did a 'Chinamans' copy of Skips impeller. I've had four sets of original Ford pumps (w/part number on castings) rebuilt by Skip. He does good work and guarantees what he does. I also like the idea of keeping an American employed.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Visual comparison won't tell the whole story. An actual test comparison would be necessary. I would guess the other sources did a 'Chinamans' copy of Skips impeller. I've had four sets of original Ford pumps (w/part number on castings) rebuilt by Skip. He does good work and guarantees what he does. I also like the idea of keeping an American employed.

+1 on this. Keep the hobby pure. No no no repos....

God Bless America!

[Old Henry]

Here's why I wanted to see the detail of Skip's impeller.
This is the impeller of the improved water pumps I got from C&G.


As you can see, they have a full width paddle that is angled like a turbine to more efficiently push the water out of the middle. The only picture of Skip's impeller that I've ever seen that is on his website makes the fins look like just bumps on the metal rather than any kind of aggressive paddles to move the water.



P.S. There have been several comments about overheating while idling. That has never been my problem. I've been in dozens of parades in the middle of the hot summer idling along for hours without any heat problems. My problems have been climbing mountains in hot weather like I did last fall over 12,000 feet over the top of Rocky Mountain National Park. I eventually had to remove my thermostats to keep from boiling over. That's the only reason I've considered doing something different.

[G.M.]

Henry that's exactly what the brand X pumps have, paddle wheels that slip and churn water mixed with a lot of air. Water with a lot of air don't cool very good. The paddle wheel shown pumps 65 to 75 gallons in 5 minutes. Skips turbine has an angle on the impellers that seats into an angle seat machined into the pump body and there is a critical clearance set between the seat and the impeller. Your type of impeller has a big gap between the impeller and body. Also notice the length of the turbine blades. Skips turbine pumps produce 110 gallons in 5 minutes with VERY LITTLE air in the system. The 32 to 36 impellers have a larger diameter, larger and longer fins with an aerodynamic shape for a smoother flow. The body is bored for the larger impeller and a modern seal and hard SS shafts centerless ground to .500 OD with the bushings reamed for the exact required clearance for the film of oil the shaft runs on. The shaft never touches the bushing just oil. The heavy oil comes from a low melt temperature grease. The stock 32 to 36 pumps deliver 55 gallons in 5 minutes, skips do 92 gallons. Every pump is tested on a water pump test machine and every pump shipped produces the gallons stated above. The test results are recorded in a test log book. G.M.

[Old Henry]

So, where's the picture to show what you're talking about? The only one I've ever seen doesn't seem to match your description.

[BillM]

Like the saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words" I'd like to see it too.

[Kahuna]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I would think it to be proprietary

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Henry I believe you requested pictures a long while ago and I brought a box full of impellers home to take pictures and I'm looking at the box from where I'm sitting. Will try to take pictures this week. G.M.

I have my engine "temporarily" out of my car getting it rebuilt and am trying to decide whether it's worth $200.00 to have my water pumps replaced while it's out. Now would be a good time but I don't have much time to meet my deadlines for the trip to Canada in a month. So, if anyone's got a picture of a Skip's impeller installed in a pump base so I can see how it works it will really help me decide.

As far as I can tell my water pumps are working just fine and I'm not inclined to spend $200 to replace them just because of a pile of testimonials. I want to actually see what is supposed to make them better with my own eyes. Call me "Doubting Thomas" but it is ingrained in me from 34 years of practicing law - all facts must be proven by facts, not just opinions.

This is all starting to look like some kind of religious zeal - "Just believe us because we say so. Don't ask us to actually prove it by showing you."

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

I would think it to be proprietary

Are you saying that every pump is sold on condition that it may not be photographed nor shown to anyone else and comes with an explicit warning of such because it's secret??? That's what "proprietary" means. Patents are the protection of ideas so they can be published, manufactured, and sold without fear of the design being stolen. If Skip has no patent on his impeller he has no protection. If he does it doesn't matter who sees it or photographs it. He can't very well keep them secret when he's sold so many.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I want to actually see what is supposed to make them better with my own eyes. Call me "Doubting Thomas" but it is ingrained in me from 34 years of practicing law - all facts must be proven by facts, not just opinions.

"

GM gave you flow facts, not opinions.

As a law practitioner, this qualifies you to view a 2 D image and come up with conclusive results?

Facts cannot be seen in a picture in regards to engineering, facts are what GM has stated, those are conclusive results.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

P.S. There have been several comments about overheating while idling. That has never been my problem. I've been in dozens of parades in the middle of the hot summer idling along for hours without any heat problems. My problems have been climbing mountains in hot weather like I did last fall over 12,000 feet over the top of Rocky Mountain National Park. I eventually had to remove my thermostats to keep from boiling over. That's the only reason I've considered doing something different.

Seem to recall that someone on this forum mentioned that one of the requirements for using Skip's pumps is that thermostats not be used.
So if removing your thermostats solved your problem, why would you need Skip's pumps?

[Charlie ny]

Well then just use the C & G pumps or Drakes or Speedy Bills.
Charlie ny

[Cecil/WV]

When you are buying a rebuilt engine that has been dyno tested, do you accept the printed results? or do you tear the engine down to see what difference is inside??

[Vic Piano]

Most of the responses on this thread, (including mine), have been positive with respect to water pumps rebuilt by Skip. I don't know why a photograph of the impeller has not been shown however; I would take into consideration the testimony, (i.e. accolades) attributed to Skip’s pumps, in a decision to replace your existing pumps. Like Charley NY says, if you are not convinced that Skips pumps are the way to go, get the pumps from another source.

[russcc]

Anyone done a scientific study, side by side, to see if there is an actual difference in flow rate and operating temperature between and spiral impeller and stock Ford impeller water pumps. Nothing against Skip's or progress, but it would nice to see the data. No data, no decision.

[Vic Piano]

I would have to say that "real world" experience is equal to, if not better than, lab test data, with respect to the water pumps. I doubt that every situation (relevant to the Flathead V8 driving experience) could be authentically replicated in a lab environment. I still say popular opinion in actual usage of the pumps should be sufficient evidence of their functionality and dependability.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Well then just use the C & G pumps or Drakes or Speedy Bills.
Charlie ny

I agree. If you are having such a hard time paying for Skip's pumps, get the off shore ones. Save yourself approx. $60 and hope for the best.

As you know, pulling an engine is a pain in the rump. If it where mine, I'd do it right, but you are the one that needs to make that choice.

I would think enough folks have given you personal experience and facts about the product. As the buyer, I think you have enough information to make an informed decision.

Good luck with the rebuild and I hope it all goes well.

Keep 'em runnin'!

[bmwillia]

Skip and G.M. provide the data. They have done the testing and show their results. Many have already posted that they have seen improved results with Skips pumps. Add me to the list.

The question is whether you trust Skip's data or not.

If the data provided by G.M. and the many testimonials on this board, not religious following, but testimonials that back up G.M.'s claims then a picture is not going to make a difference.

Lord knows people here will let you know if there is a problem with something.

If your pumps work then don't fix them. If they don't work then, based on the evidence given, you will not find a better option than Skip's.

[Tim Ayers]

As far as I can tell my water pumps are working just fine and I'm not inclined to spend $200 to replace them just because of a pile of testimonials. I want to actually see what is supposed to make them better with my own eyes. Call me "Doubting Thomas" but it is ingrained in me from 34 years of practicing law - all facts must be proven by facts, not just opinions.

This is all starting to look like some kind of religious zeal - "Just believe us because we say so. Don't ask us to actually prove it by showing you."[/QUOTE]


So as a practicing lawyer for 34 years, you've never had an expert twist or misrepresent the facts in a case or had a jury not believe a whole gang of witnesses who are saying the same thing about what they saw?

Religious zeal is a pretty strong comment. I think it's time to put this to rest. Buy the pumps or don't buy the pumps.

Have you called Skip to talk to him in order to get it from the man himself vs. posting on an internet forum? That may be a good idea.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Old Henry, this thought came to my mind as I read your posts here....going back to your posts regarding problems with the banjo rear end in your car...I recall you had and 'saw with your own eyes' excessive wear damage on the pinion, driveshaft and coupling splines and yet your initial judgement call, at one point, was to just put it all back together like that and drive the car until it failed completely rather than spend money to fix it properly.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...hlight=rearend

With that type of logic in mind, what makes you feel qualified as a lawyer to just look at pictures of water pump impeller designs and determine which ones work best and why?

[Charlie ny]

A preponderance of the evidence ie unsolicited testimonials works for me.....shall
we move on to the best shells to use when hunting ducks....hmmm?
Charlie ny

[Kahuna]

Wonder why there are all those Lawyer Jokes?

[Old Henry]

Thanks for all of the input (other than no one having a picture of a Skip pump). Looks like I'll have to make my decision without the picture or understanding totally how and why the Skip's pumps work better than my improved design. Sometimes decisions take a "leap of faith" without knowing everything one might want to know before deciding.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Wonder why there are all those Lawyer Jokes?

'Cause that's what I is. (Or, is it: That's what I are.)

[V8COOPMAN]

Maybe it's just a "curiosity" thing, and maybe just like someone interested in purchasing the Mona Lisa (were it offered for sale), the famous painting has been well documented for eons that it's a "great" piece of art, worth at least a gazillion bucks in anyone's book, yet one would probably want at least one more peek at it before writing that check. So, why has it been so hard to get a simple peek at the Skip/GM impeller? DD

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for all of the input (other than no one having a picture of a Skip pump). Looks like I'll have to make my decision without the picture or understanding totally how and why the Skip's pumps work better than my improved design. Sometimes decisions take a "leap of faith" without knowing everything one might want to know before deciding.

Henry, My experience with Skip, the man, has been great. He does good work, is timely and polite.
His pumps? I have yet to note a difference in operating temperature in any of the vehicles I have built. No doubt that is due to the fact my engines are built with care (ex: CLEAN blocks) and the radiators, shields, etc. are top rate.
Are his pumps worth the cost? Well, according to others, they have helped. Apples to apples comparison? I know I'd send a check his way long before Drake or Speedway, etc.

[Tim Ayers]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Maybe it's just a "curiosity" thing, and maybe just like someone interested in purchasing the Mona Lisa (were it offered for sale), the famous painting has been well documented for eons that it's a "great" piece of art, worth at least a gazillion bucks in anyone's book, yet one would probably want at least one more peek at it before writing that check. So, why has it been so hard to get a simple peek at the Skip/GM impeller? DD

Because it works so well the US Government deemed it as highly classified information. The powers that be were so surprised that something actually worked as good or if not better than designed, they now require a security clearence to view the picture.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Maybe it's just a "curiosity" thing, and maybe just like someone interested in purchasing the Mona Lisa (were it offered for sale), the famous painting has been well documented for eons that it's a "great" piece of art, worth at least a gazillion bucks in anyone's book, yet one would probably want at least one more peek at it before writing that check. So, why has it been so hard to get a simple peek at the Skip/GM impeller? DD

At least we've all seen accurate detailed pictures of the Mona Lisa painting. More than can be said of Skip's pumps.

[oldford2]

Come on Professor,

Stop



And go buy your Chinese pumps. (probably made by a 14 year old girl)

John LOL

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Come on Professor,

Stop



And go buy your Chinese pumps. (probably made by a 14 year old girl)

John LOL

Already have the Chinese pumps that seem to be working OK. That's why I started this thread to see if there was any reason to change.

[V8COOPMAN]

.....and I always thought that one of the reasons for the existence of this place was to pass-around useful information between the users. DD

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for all of the input (other than no one having a picture of a Skip pump). Looks like I'll have to make my decision without the picture or understanding totally how and why the Skip's pumps work better than my improved design. Sometimes decisions take a "leap of faith" without knowing everything one might want to know before deciding.

So... you designed a water pump? If you want to test it, wouldn't it be better to buy one of skips and test it against your design?

maybe I'm reading that wrong...

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Tinker

So... you designed a water pump? If you want to test it, wouldn't it be better to buy one of skips and test it against your design?

maybe I'm reading that wrong...

I referred to "my improved design" meaning the pump that I bought from C&G that was the improved design. Also, because G.M. liked to make his response to me personal by comparing Skips pump to "my" pump.

I guess if I ever want to see what a Skip's pump looks like and how it works it's gonna cost me $212.00 to see one whether I want to use it or not.

[uncle max]

Can't help with a picture because my Skip pumps are - and have been - in service for eight years. It gets very hot at Bonneville and I've had no overheating problems since installing them.
Before I installed them, I compared the impellors with a junkyard mid-80's Buick water pump. The "turbine" design appeared to be identical in every respect, unlike the paddle wheel design of the stockers.

[Cecil/WV]

Who ducked??

[Tim Ayers]

OK, I will take a picture and post it next to a stock pump so we are talking apples to apples.

I'll post them in the AM.

[russcc]

The notion of a factual test, original Ford impeller and a spiral one would be very helpful yo understand the actual difference. I was at Ray Helgers in RI today, (he has warehouses full of vintage NOS, NORS & used parts). We just happened to be in the water pump section, and I saw a old spiral water pump impeller. Ray said it was not a Ford. So, the spiral impeller apparently been around for many years. I didn't ask what make of car used that type of water pump impeller. Will check with him the next time I am over there.

[Old Henry]

Here is a scale drawing I made of the C&G "Chinese" pump impeller if anyone cares.

[Tim Ayers]

Got the picts. Will post them tomorrow. Difference is night and day.

[Charlie ny]

Now can we go hunt some ducks ?
Charlie ny

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I referred to "my improved design" meaning the pump that I bought from C&G that was the improved design. Also, because G.M. liked to make his response to me personal by comparing Skips pump to "my" pump.

I guess if I ever want to see what a Skip's pump looks like and how it works it's gonna cost me $212.00 to see one whether I want to use it or not.

Skip's pump is is not $212.00. They are $212.00 a PAIR including shipping. Walt

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Now can we go hunt some ducks ?
Charlie ny

Charlie:

This thread may go down in the record books...

Tim

[G.M.]

Tim thanks for posting the pictures. I have been working on my house for over a month and have only stopped by the shop for a few minutes to pick up tools. Henry originally asked for pictures of various impellers not a pump which I have sitting here at home for months and haven't got around to it yet. I made dozens of impellers over the years trying to improve the flow, some looked really good but had no increase in flow one of these might appeal to Henry? As soon as I put the modified 36 impeller on the machine I knew it would work. I only made one and put it on the right side of my 33 phaeton and it cooled the right side 25 or 30 degrees cooler than the left side. I put this pump on the left side and it now cooled the left side 25 to 30 degrees cooler than the right side. Again I tried numerous 39 type impeller improvements with very little or no change and gave up for a few years. Then I had the turbine idea and spent a week making one impeller and bingo it almost doubled the flow. I only made one and knew it worked on the test machine. I don't remember if I even tried it on and engine, I don't think I did. I sent the prototype to a pattern maker and had an 8 or 10 impeller mold made. Henry I was so sure it would work I put my money up, much more than $200.00 The result was an increase in flow from 65 gallons on a stock pump to 110 gallons. I gave Skip the patterns, let him use my shop, tools, the phone, electric and I am not a partner and receive no money from his coil and pump earnings. He helps me once in a while if I need help but he stays busy and I try not to bother him. I told Skip when he started that he could make a thousand good coils and nobody hears about them but make one bad one and the whole world hears about it. He don't rush to get his products shipped, every parts is done right and tested even though he is paid before he does the job, if he has any doubt he does it over. There are few who didn't like the way I promoted his parts over the years but it was a 2 sided promotion. One it got business for Skip but the main result was it helped 25 or 30,000 people with old Fords all over the world be able to drive them without the fear of getting stuck on the road. I took the heckling because I knew what the end result would be. G.M.

[Charlie ny]

GM,
We are the fortunate ones....those who know your story....you've done
much for lots more than just us old Ford guys.
Hope to see you in Gettysburg in '14.
Charlie ny

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Seem to recall that someone on this forum mentioned that one of the requirements for using Skip's pumps is that thermostats not be used.
So if removing your thermostats solved your problem, why would you need Skip's pumps?

Right on! Just sent Skip this email:

"Do you have a recommendation as to whether or not to use a thermostat with your pumps? i.e. can the engine get the advantage of the increased flow from your pumps with the thermostats left in or do they need to come out to really benefit?"

This was his reponse:

"Any modern thermostats I have seen for 32 to 48 engines have small flow openings restricting the flow of water. If the flow is restricted there is no use buying my pumps."

The only alternative he had was to use Bob Shewman's 180° high flow thermostats.

So, if you want to use Ford's recommended 160° thermostats on your 32-48 engines there's no reason to buy Skip's pumps. Looks like you'll get better flow with a stock or C&G pump without a thermostat than you will with Skip's pumps and the currently available 160° thermostat.

So, looks like I'll just keep doing what I've been doing - keep using the pump I've got and remove the thermostat in the summer to increase flow and put it back in for winter for the heater to work better.

Case closed. (Whew . . . that took some time and effort but I found out what I wanted to know. It was certainly worth the effort for me. Sorry if it bothered anyone else.)

Thanks again for everyone's input, especially Skip's very honest and frank response. (Looks like he really is as nice a guy as everyone says.)

[Ken Bull]

I did my water pumps & coil with Skip & been running good since 9/2009. Satisfied ! I dont use thermostats but I live in Florida

[Tinker]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Disclaimer (legal mumbo-gumbo): I don't know Skip personally.

Skip has done 3 coils for me. I don't worry about them now when the engine is hot (180-190), they don't fail anymore. Also rebuilt and dialed in my my 36coupe dizzy.

Need to have him rebuild my waterpumps on my 38. Bought pumps from a big vender, before I did research, and they have a leak in the propeller shaft when its run. Leak is very small, but it was there from the beginning and still leaking today.

Same here, no thermostats.

Use Skips services or don't. But to me it's worth every cent. And all due respect, $212 for two pumps or $83 for a rebuild correct looking coil, is a real deal.

[34PKUP]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Tim thanks for posting the pictures. I have been working on my house for over a month and have only stopped by the shop for a few minutes to pick up tools. Henry originally asked for pictures of various impellers not a pump which I have sitting here at home for months and haven't got around to it yet. I made dozens of impellers over the years trying to improve the flow, some looked really good but had no increase in flow one of these might appeal to Henry? As soon as I put the modified 36 impeller on the machine I knew it would work. I only made one and put it on the right side of my 33 phaeton and it cooled the right side 25 or 30 degrees cooler than the left side. I put this pump on the left side and it now cooled the left side 25 to 30 degrees cooler than the right side. Again I tried numerous 39 type impeller improvements with very little or no change and gave up for a few years. Then I had the turbine idea and spent a week making one impeller and bingo it almost doubled the flow. I only made one and knew it worked on the test machine. I don't remember if I even tried it on and engine, I don't think I did. I sent the prototype to a pattern maker and had an 8 or 10 impeller mold made. Henry I was so sure it would work I put my money up, much more than $200.00 The result was an increase in flow from 65 gallons on a stock pump to 110 gallons. I gave Skip the patterns, let him use my shop, tools, the phone, electric and I am not a partner and receive no money from his coil and pump earnings. He helps me once in a while if I need help but he stays busy and I try not to bother him. I told Skip when he started that he could make a thousand good coils and nobody hears about them but make one bad one and the whole world hears about it. He don't rush to get his products shipped, every parts is done right and tested even though he is paid before he does the job, if he has and doubt he does it over. There are few who didn't like the way I promoted his parts over the years but it was a 2 sided promotion. One it got business for Skip but the main result was it helped 25 or 30,000 people with old Fords all over the world be able to drive them without the fear of getting stuck on the road. I took the heckling because I knew what the end result would be. G.M.

Don't see any mention of whether thermostats were installed or not.
After seeing this quote attributed to Skip himself,"Any modern thermostats I have seen for 32 to 48 engines have small flow openings restricting the flow of water. If the flow is restricted there is no use buying my pumps."
I wonder why this was left out of the equation?

[Shadetree]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

GM,
We are the fortunate ones....those who know your story....you've done
much for lots more than just us old Ford guys.
Hope to see you in Gettysburg in '14.
Charlie ny

I second this. When I first went on the old Fordbarn I was impressed with GM's posts and the knowledge and results of his testing that he shared. Thanks GM!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 34PKUP

Don't see any mention of whether thermostats were installed or not.
After seeing this quote attributed to Skip himself,"Any modern thermostats I have seen for 32 to 48 engines have small flow openings restricting the flow of water. If the flow is restricted there is no use buying my pumps."
I wonder why this was left out of the equation?

It's the difference between a salesman and a teacher.

[Tim Ayers]

Having internet problems so I can't post the pictures. Will do as soon as I'm able.

[Andy]

I would be interested in seeing the impellers. I did compressor wheel research at AiResearch in the 60's and so have some experience in wheel design.
I am new to flatheads but I will give my experience. I have 4x 3 5/16 59A engine. It has thermostats and a very aggressive fan. It has never gotten over 180. Stock pumps. I would never run an engine without thermostats as the engine can not ever settle into a stable running temperature.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Having internet problems so I can't post the pictures. Will do as soon as I'm able.

Ah. One more attempt to show Skip's impellers thwarted by the Skip's Pump Phantom!

[Tim Ayers]

OK, here we go. Let me know if you need some more. It's hard to see and tell, but Skip's pumps seem to be machined behind the impeller to minimize the air gap that G.M. was talking about. I could be wrong on this.

[Old Henry]

Thanks Tim. Your pictures are very helpful. They do much to satisfy my sometimes overly inquisitive mind.

[Ross F-1]

What I see is that Skips impeller is what's called a mixed-flow design, while the stocker is a pure (and very simple) centrifugal design. Each type has its advantages and limitations. One of the features of a mixed-flow design is that it doesn't behave nicely if you pinch off the flow nearly completely, that is undoubtedly why Skip has requirements on thermostats.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks Tim. Your pictures are very helpful. They do much to satisfy my sometimes over inquisitive mind.

No problem! Glad to help.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

What I see is that Skips impeller is what's called a mixed-flow design, while the stocker is a pure (and very simple) centrifugal design. Each type has its advantages and limitations. One of the features of a mixed-flow design is that it doesn't behave nicely if you pinch off the flow nearly completely, that is undoubtedly why Skip has requirements on thermostats.

Are you saying that the mixed-flow design is better for creating unrestricted flow but not as good at creating pressure to push through restrictions which the centrifugal pump may well be better at?

[51 MERC-CT]

[QUOTE=Old Henry;653064]
So, looks like I'll just keep doing what I've been doing - keep using the pump I've got and remove the thermostat in the summer to increase flow and put it back in for winter for the heater to work better.
QUOTE]

Was just giving some thought as to what I would consider doing if I had an early ('32-'48) flathead and were in the same situation.
First remove the A.F.R's. (automatic flow regulators), then install M.F.R's.
(manual flow regulators).
The M.F.R's could be in the form of ball valves (no bigger than the I.D. of the head outlets) and located somewhere in the upper hose.
This could be rigged to give control of each side manually from the dash.
Set temp. for normal driving, come to a long hill at altitude, open 'm up.
(Concours types please disregard)

[Chris]

I used Skip's pumps in my 33 pickup, simply because I did not really have another source for the 32-36 pumps. I was so impressed at how it stayed cooled in any condition, that I had a set done for my roadster. I drove that car (59AB with a 4" crank, NO thermostats as the instructions stated, 3 speed and 3.54 gears) to Bonneville and back last year. It was 1500 miles round trip and over 100 degrees most the way. The car never went above 180 except climbing White bird pass and the Lewiston grade...both very long, steep and hot. I will run his pumps in any flathead car I have.



Here is the whole story if anyone is interested.
http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80072

[Straightpipes]

I find the Fordbarn amusing in that many of those who post here fall all over suppliers such as Skip or Richard. If brakes are mentioned they immediatly crow over Richards brake conversion kit. I suppose it's nice, and they do provide a service for those who need these parts. However, he put out a picture of it and I went to work and built an exact copy for my 34' for very minamal cost.
Skip pumps are no exception and can be duplicated with a little CAD work. If someone wanted to copy and retail them it wouldn't be difficult.

Personally, I don't like the design and prefer the original centrifugal style. Henry's pumps have worked fine for me on cross country trips and racing. But, I think they are great for the rest of you purists..

[Old Henry]

[QUOTE=51 MERC-CT;653334]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

So, looks like I'll just keep doing what I've been doing - keep using the pump I've got and remove the thermostat in the summer to increase flow and put it back in for winter for the heater to work better.
QUOTE]

Was just giving some thought as to what I would consider doing if I had an early ('32-'48) flathead and were in the same situation.
First remove the A.F.R's. (automatic flow regulators), then install M.F.R's.
(manual flow regulators).
The M.F.R's could be in the form of ball valves (no bigger than the I.D. of the head outlets) and located somewhere in the upper hose.
This could be rigged to give control of each side manually from the dash.
Set temp. for normal driving, come to a long hill at altitude, open 'm up.
(Concours types please disregard)

If I were to go with a MFR it would be the cardboard in front of the radiator in the winter.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Chris

I used Skip's pumps . . . [with] . . . NO thermostats as the instructions stated . . .

If you're saying that Skip's pumps actually come with written instructions to NOT use thermostats there has been some deceptive promotion of them on here claiming that they are the best thing since sliced bread and cure all overheating problems without exception for thermostats. That was the only reason I was even considering buying them - so that I could leave my thermostats in year 'round instead of having to remove them every spring and put them back in every fall. Wow! Sure glad I dodged that bullet.

Thanks again to 51 MERC-CT for tipping me off.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

If you're saying that Skip's pumps actually come with written instructions to NOT use thermostats there has been some deceptive promotion of them on here claiming that they are the best thing since sliced bread and cure all overheating problems without exception for thermostats. That was the only reason I was even considering buying them - so that I could leave my thermostats in year 'round instead of having to remove them every spring and put them back in every fall. Wow! Sure glad I dodged that bullet.

Thanks again to 51 MERC-CT for tipping me off.

Yes, the instructions state that not running thermostats helps increase the flow, and to only run them in cold weather.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

If you're saying that Skip's pumps actually come with written instructions to NOT use thermostats there has been some deceptive promotion of them on here claiming that they are the best thing since sliced bread and cure all overheating problems without exception for thermostats. That was the only reason I was even considering buying them - so that I could leave my thermostats in year 'round instead of having to remove them every spring and put them back in every fall. Wow! Sure glad I dodged that bullet.

Thanks again to 51 MERC-CT for tipping me off.

Wait, hold the phone. I thought in a previous post you mentioned that you called Skip and he told you not to use thermostats.

I don't want to go back and re-read all the posts, but the thermostat thing is just coming to light now? Was this all done to stir up the pot?

[51 MERC-CT]

[QUOTE=Old Henry;653395]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

If I were to go with a MFR it would be the cardboard in front of the radiator in the winter.

Yep!, Can remember my father doing it as standard practice on his '38 former police car (still had the patch where the whip antenna went.)

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Wait, hold the phone. I thought in a previous post you mentioned that you called Skip and he told you not to use thermostats.

I don't want to go back and re-read all the posts, but the thermostat thing is just coming to light now? Was this all done to stir up the pot?

I'm not sure what you mean by "stir up the pot". Such surely has not been nor is now my intention. I have just been seeking accurate information and in all of the "promotions" for Skip's pumps I have ever read (including all but one of the 85 posts on this thread) I have never read that they were not recommended for use with thermostats. I first heard of that in an email communication with Skip just yesterday which I initiated as a result of 51 MERC-CT's comment (#30) and now hear from Chris that such restriciton is actually included with every one of Skip's pumps. Either there is no one but me using thermostats or such very relevant and material fact has at least been omitted if not outright concealed. I have taken quite a bit of gas on this thread for questioning the virtues of Skip's pumps and that I should just buy them and quit asking questions. I would have been pretty teed-off if I had taken that advice, counting on being able to use my thermostats year 'round, then, when I recieved the pumps, read the warning not to use thermostats with them. It's not just the 85 posts on this thread. It's the zillion promotions by you know who for years that has never mentioned this problem with Skip's pumps.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Are you saying that the mixed-flow design is better for creating unrestricted flow but not as good at creating pressure to push through restrictions which the centrifugal pump may well be better at?

Using a fresh design he could design it for more flow, more pressure, whatever he wanted. The main difference is I'd expect the mixed flow to have less internal turbulence and less tendency to cavitate.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I'm not sure what you mean by "stir up the pot". Such surely has not been nor is now my intention. I have just been seeking accurate information and in all of the "promotions" for Skip's pumps I have ever read (including all but one of the 85 posts on this thread) I have never read that they were not recommended for use with thermostats. I first heard of that in an email communication with Skip just yesterday which I initiated as a result of 51 MERC-CT's comment and now hear from Chris that such restriciton is actually included with every one of Skip's pumps. Either there is no one but me using thermostats or such very relevant and material fact has at least been omitted if not outright concealed.

I did not run thermostats in my 33 or 34...never had an overheat. My 41 Ford I do have T-stats in, but I have a set of junky Bob Drake pumps on it...I am doing a new engine for it and I will get a set of Skips pumps. Not trying to promote, just saying they work, and work well.

[Old Henry]

Rest assured that any promotion of Skip's pumps in the future that does not include the caveat about the thermostats is going to get a response from me regarding that problem. Nothing against Skip or his pumps, just in favor of full disclosure of all relevant facts.

[Lawrie]

Henry, I have skips pumps on my 33 with the std engine,I made and fitted t/stats in the tops hoses,It sure made a difference in warming up and so far have been great.But I havent been out in it in summer yet,(thats 6 months away).
Also the pumps are the old ones rebuilt.

If you want to fit the t/stats do what I did and buy a pair from the local auto shop,tig weld them on a small length of stainless exhaust tube then slip them into the top hoses.

Hope you get your engine back soon,
Lawrie

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by Chris

I did not run thermostats in my 33 or 34...never had an overheat. My 41 Ford I do have T-stats in, but I have a set of junky Bob Drake pumps on it...I am doing a new engine for it and I will get a set of Skips pumps. Not trying to promote, just saying they work, and work well.

I'm curious Chris, as to why you consider Bob Drakes pumps junky? I have them on my C59A and they are the bees knees as far as I can see. They work just fine, for me anyway. I'm not defending them, I just have a thirst for all knowledge about things flathead.

[Mike in AZ]

hunt them poor little quackers???...snifffff....what shot do you prefer??....use the old 12 gauge Ithaca pump with high brass....Mike

[G.M.]

I have posted maybe a 100 times about the use of modern thermostats in the hot summer causing the engine to run hot even with 8 .125 holes drilled in the flange to try to increase flow. Thermostats with small flow openings are like putting washers in the hose as recommended by lots of people for 60 or more years. The water was going out the over flow and the washers, the same as small thermostats slowed the flow, less flow eased up on the volume of water going into the top tank.
Less water into the top tank allowed less to flow out the over flow. This works in cooler weather but causes the engine to run hot in hot weather BECAUSE
less water is flowing through the radiator. With the 4 lb pressure cap or 3 lb valve
and either NO thermostats or Bob Shewmans full flow stats much more water is FORCED through the radiator. As I said a hundred times better cooling is achieved with more water in the system (filled up in the neck), more water flow by using pumps that deliver more water. Like the promotion or not there are NO PUMPS that come within 25 gallons in 5 minutes of what Skips pump produce. A shroud and a QUALITY 6 bladed fan also help. Make anyone of these improvements and you get some improvement, do all of them and it won't go over 180 at fast idle or road speeds in 100 degree temperatures. Henry I think you must be so engrossed in your ramblings that you don't read what others write or maybe you just don't understand. I would say it's both. G.M.

[CC33]

All of this talk got me thinking about rebuilding my entabulator. This link may help.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ba_1296857530

[L78CHEVELLE]

Here is some hands on experience with Bob Drake's, Dennis Carpenter's, and Skip's pumps. I have installed them all on 1940 Fords I have bought and sold with Bob Shewman's large opening thermostats that install in the upper hoses near the radiator. I keep the thermostats in the cars year round. In the winter time there was no difference in the temperature of the cars under any circumstance. In the summer there was no difference in the temperature of the cars except in extreme conditions like on very hot days in traffic. In extreme conditions Skips pumps kept the temperature of the car at 180 while the other pumps would go up to 190 or as much as 200. When I would get back into a good traffic flow the other pumps would cool the car down to 180 within two miles. Bob Drake's pumps were $100 a pair on sale. I think Dennis Carpenter's pumps were $125. and I think Skips pumps were about $200. Bob puts his name on his pumps outer housing which I don't like. From memory I think Bob Shewman's thermostats were around $35 for the pair. I'm doing all these prices from memory and they could be wrong. One more thing if you need to talk to Skip or Bob Shewman you call them and talk to them. That is not the case with the other providers. I just wanted to shed some light from my flashlight on this water pump issue. There is no correct answer for all the circumstances that could exist with each individuals needs.

[Old Henry]

G.M. I dare you, no, double dare you, no, let's make it double DOG dare you to post the reference to one post of yours that has ever said that Skip's pumps should not be used with any stock thermostats in 32-48 cars. I have a pretty good memory and don't remember any and just spent some time searching and didn't find any.

[G.M.]

I think you must be losing your memory I posted it so many times I'm getting tired of typing it trying to get it to sink in to people like you. G.M.

[Old Henry]

In searching for any warning by G.M. that Skip's pumps should not be used with stock thermostats in any 32-48 cars I found this image from a post of his in August 2010 that shows skips impeller quite well. That and Tim Ayers' pictures is all I was asking for when I started this thread. Sure was hard to get.

[Tim Ayers]

This thread has gone epic....

Let me shift gears and get us to a happier place: 1.5 or 1.6 valves? Discuss...

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This thread has gone epic....

Amen to that. And all I asked for was a picture of something, no opinions, no judgements, no criticisms, no testimonials, no advice, no arguing, no bickering, just a picture. Geeezzz.

[hotrodA]

^^^^Welcome to the Fordbarn.......SOS

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This thread has gone epic....

Let me shift gears and get us to a happier place: 1.5 or 1.6 valves? Discuss...

How about 3 rings on a 4 ring piston."LOL"

Diesel oil!!!

Ignition points vs hei!!!

[Mike B]

Wow, like watching a soap opera..mercy.

Bottom line in my opinion, is more flow will always assist in cooling...seems pretty simple to me.

Heck, many guys/gals run restrictors and not thermostats to keep the temp where they want it.

I'd rather have more flow than is needed, than less.

Henry, just curious, did the pics you see make you an informed engeering descision?

Data like GM provided would have suffice for me.

On topic...lol..off?

Oh, just another opinion of mine, it appears that the impeller is casted...is just the end of the impeller machined? (from pics posted it appears to me)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Henry, just curious, did the pics you see make you an informed engeering descision?

I know your question may be a rhetorical one (that doesn't really want an answer). If so, I apologize for giving one. But, just in case you really want an answer, the answer is yes, although the pictures were not as powerful as Skip's instruction not to use his pumps with modern thermostats available for 32-48 engines. Now, at the risk of giving more information than anyone really wants to know, here's what I learned from the pictures.

HOW TO MOVE GASES AND FLUIDS: Using air as an example, there is a whole spectrum of devices to move it from a blade fan on one end of the spectrum to a piston compressor on the other end. The choice of which one to use depends on whether volume is more important or pressure. The fan, of course, moves way more volume but creates very little pressure through a restriction whereas, on the other hand, a piston compressor moves very little volume but can push air through very high restrictions. Water is the same way. The propeller of a boat moves the water at very high speed but would not create the pressure to fly a man in the air on a flyboard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd6C1vIyQ3w) like the centrifugal pump of PWC. So, there is a balance that must be struck between volume and pressure. So it is in the flathead engines. There is need for both and more of each under changing conditions within the engine. Essentially the difference is whether or not the water pump must push the water through the restriction of a thermostat. If it does not, the higher volume but lower pressure mixed-flow design of Skip's impeller is best. But, with the restriction of the thermostat, the pressure created by the centrifugal impeller may well be better, at least that's what Skip and other responses here have said.

Originally Posted by Mike B

Data like GM provided would have suffice for me.

Let me begin this response (which maybe no one wants) by congratulating G.M. for the creative and inventive work he did almost 20 years ago creating and testing the impeller that Skip now sells. It definitely has it's advantages as I mention above. However, as far as I have read (and I just re-read back almost three years) all of his testing was either with the pumps not installed in an engine or installed in an engine without thermostats. That is all good data for anyone that never needs or runs thermostats, which most seem to be. But for me, that lives where I need heat in the winter and a thermostat to create it, it is not really helpful because it does not report the performance of Skip's impeller when more pressure is needed. As I've just re-read the last three years of G.M.'s reports, many have asked for data from tests with a thermostat installed but there never has been any that I found. Apparently, Skip has some idea what the results of such a test would be and that's why he doesn't recommend his pumps be used with stock thermostats (high volume stats are OK). So, that's why G.M.'s data was not sufficient for my needs and purposes although it is very valuable for all of you in the sunbelts that don't need the stats. I also just sent G.M. a PM requesting details and data on his testing of the impeller that I'm using. He did not produce any. So, his tests comparing his impeller and stock impellers years before the impeller I use was developed is not really relevant to it.

[donald1950]

henry, you will never win. you are trying to argue intelegent logic to a caveman.

had a 41 pick up with stock 8BA. drove san antonio to atlanta and back with skips pumps. had stant 180 degree stats in going. ran 185 except when in traffic and then it heated up quickley in traffic. took stats out before trip back to san antonio. ran cooler 170-175 except when in traffic and it heated up quickley in traffic. ran around san antonio for several weeks and had exactly same thing when stats in or out. took off skipd pumps and reinstalled new C&G pumps and with or with out stats things were the same, except did it not heat up quite as fast as with skips pumps. at all times i had the recomendedmixture of antifreeze per skips instructions.
bigest problem seemed to be traffic with low air flow through radiator. did not have shroud or high volume fan, just stock fan. put electric fan in front of radiator with a temp sensing switch to turn on electric fan at 195 and off at 175 and that cured overheating in traffic. recored radiator was in truck at all times that had 7# coolant recovery cap setup for coolant recovery with recovery tank.. never lost water due to recovert system.

have a 50 sedan with gm crate motor, BW 5 speed trans, 190 stat, walker radiator, walker shroud, 7 blade high volume fan, AC. car runs at just below 3/4 on gauge freeway or traffic. key is high volume fan & shroud. has a coolant frecovery system.

41 pu had a 59 motor, 8BA motor and a gm 350 motor in it. AND with all 3 motors in it it had the same recored 4 tube radiator in it. all 3 motors had the same slow speed overheating problem that a pusher fan in front of the radiator cured. i feel if i had been able to get a shroud and high volume fan in there i would not have needed the electric pusher fan.

get a good airflow through the entire radiator with a shroud. use a high volume fan to pull all that cool air through ALL the radiator, and probably either pump will get enough water through a clean radiator to be heat exchanged and allow you not to worry about overheating.... don

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by donald1950

henry, you will never win. you are trying to argue intelegent logic to a caveman.

I'm not really trying to argue but just teach what I learned. I think anyone that sincerely asks a question is likely smart enough to learn from the answer (i.e. no caveman).

I really liked your real life examples of changing variables in the cooling system and the results. That was very helpful. Seemed to verify my thinking.

[HotRodmicky]

Do Bob Sherman high flow stats fit in the stock position,openings?

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

G.M. I dare you, no, double dare you, no, let's make it double DOG dare you to post the reference to one post

LOL Had an instant vision of a kid with his tongue stuck to a flagpole and then the bandage (ref-Christmas Story)

[Tim Ayers]

Folks:

I think even GM would agree that Skips pumps aren't a cure all. Donald 1950, I would be curious to know the condition of your radiator, if you flushed it or your block. Was your distributor running 100%?

As we all know, flatheads tend to collect a lot crud in their water jackets. A block with a crudded up water jacket is going to run hot no mater what. A plugged up radiator is going to run hot using Skips pumps or not. Having a distributor that is out of time will make a car run hot in traffic.

Those who are praising Skip's pumps are all talking about a car with a radiator and engine block that is clean and running 100%.

Folks are jumping into the fray without giving all the facts about their particular set up and, in turn, isn't that what Old Henry wanted in the first place? The facts?

I'm punching out...

[Cecil/WV]

I remember many times that GM has said not to use the thermostats that are normally sold by vendors as they would restrict the flow. That's how I knew not to use them.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by HotRodmicky

Do Bob Sherman high flow stats fit in the stock position,openings?

No. They are installed in the upper radiator necks where the water enters the radiator.

[rotorwrench]

I still remember when a lot of folks thought that the dual pump system was forcing too much water flow too fast through the radiator so they put washers in the top hoses to restrict flow. Some folks even removed every other impeller blade from the stock pumps to slow the flow. Barney Navarro even modified the blocks by installing a collector and tubes in back of the water pump impellers to route the water to the back of the block and had moderate success in preventing overheating for a racing application.

As far as what works best it beats me. I'll let folks make their own decision. I figure you can only push water through a given radiator at a certain flow rate or it could damage the radiator. Folks used to think if the flow rate was to high (too fast) then it wouldn't exchange enough heat. If that was the case the a larger radiator would be required. Cooling system design is not new science but there are a lot of variable to consider. All I know for sure is that a flathead motor with exhaust running through a good portion of the block is going to hold a lot more heat than one that exits the exhaust more quickly. Us flat V8 owners just have to make do with what we have to work with.

[Hank the 36]

Here are my water pumps straight from the box after being rebuilt by Skip. I'm hoping to button up the car today and she how H36 runs. No good shot's of the impeller's, I just thought I would add to the "mother of all threads". Good luck Henry I just want to see more of your travels.

[John R]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

What I see is that Skips impeller is what's called a mixed-flow design, while the stocker is a pure (and very simple) centrifugal design. Each type has its advantages and limitations. One of the features of a mixed-flow design is that it doesn't behave nicely if you pinch off the flow nearly completely, that is undoubtedly why Skip has requirements on thermostats.

Ross F-1: Thanks! Your brief post is perhaps the most insightful of all in this long thread. Now I'm beginning to recall the basics of centrifugal pump design from my ME class. The characteristics of the pump itself is expressed in flow volume (gpm) vs. head. Thus, the volume of any pump design in actual operation depends on the head (flow resistance) of the specific system of which it is a part. (This means that flow data from an "open" unrestricted test, while interesting, are not definitive. An impeller with higher flow in an open test may or may not produce higher flow in a highly restricted system.) Also, removing thermostats obviously changes the flow resistance of the cooling system and thus the operating point (volume) of the pump.

The different generic impeller designs (radial fins, backward canted fins, etc.) have well-known generic volume/head characteristics. Thus, knowing the shape of the fins enables a knowledgeable person to form an initial estimate of how the impeller will operate in a given system. And that point gets back to Old Henry’s original, simple request.

[donald1950]

Donald 1950, I would be curious to know the condition of your radiator, if you flushed it or your block. Was your distributor running 100%?

recored 4 tube radiator, block on 8BA & 350 chev had been thuroly cleaned byboiling in block cleaning souloution (both new rebuilt motors) 59 motor had been rebuily 4 years previous to acquiring truck, timing on all distributers was correct. gm motor & 8BA had MSD unit with vacuum advance.... don