Restored cars

[Kahuna]

Just for fun I looked thru the ads for Model "A" on the Mafca site.
I was amazed by the number of cars that are "restored".
Has the definition of the word changed?
Just wondering
Jim

[dean from bozeman]

The definition of the word "restore" :

repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.

Looks like the definition hasn't changed....only people's interpretation of the word has.

[J Franklin]

Maybe restored to "as remembered".

[WHN]

Does it really matter?

There are people who will pick the best restoration apart. It’s just a hobby.

Just enjoy it, no matter the level of restoration.

[J Franklin]

It doesn't ever really matter except in a sale description. Maybe the word renewed might be more correct. Most everything on my car has been renewed but may not be factory. I trust my car to get me there and back anytime it is used.

[Dick Steinkamp]

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Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

The definition of the word "restore" :

repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.

Looks like the definition hasn't changed....only people's interpretation of the word has.

In that same definition, it gives these synonyms...

synonyms: repair · fix · mend · refurbish · recondition · rehabilitate · rebuild · reconstruct · remodel · redecorate · revamp · make over · overhaul · put back into its original condition · redevelop · renovate · modernize · update · bring up to date · upgrade · gentrify · refit · re-equip · refurnish · bring up to code · do up · fix up · give a facelift to · rehab
antonyms: neglect

(My bolds...note that all but one synonym does not apply to our former definition of restore.

The term has become more to mean "fix up" than "return to its original condition".

Even those who argue that it is misused, often have a lot of leeway themselves (seat belts, radial tires, powder coated wheels, high compression head, insert bearings, turn signals, safety glass, modern shocks, etc. etc), but can always rationalize THEIR deviations from "return to its original condition" as still being "restored".

It doesn't bother me any. I know what is meant when I see the car.

[24ruxstel1339]

I don't have any problem with safety equipment being modernized.
I also feel it's ok for period correct accessories....It all depends on the goal of the "restoration".
If you want a trophy car that scores points, no.
If you want a driver and don't care about trophies, then whatever...it's your car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by WHN

Does it really matter?

There are people who will pick the best restoration apart. It’s just a hobby.

Just enjoy it, no matter the level of restoration.

Originally Posted by J Franklin

It doesn't ever really matter except in a sale description. Maybe the word renewed might be more correct. Most everything on my car has been renewed but may not be factory. I trust my car to get me there and back anytime it is used.

I think it matters greatly. It is the deceit that is often intended when using this word to mislead someone about the actual condition.

[J Franklin]

Brent, that is why I said it was wrong in using restored in the description of a car for sale unless quantified and honestly described.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Just for fun I looked thru the ads for Model "A" on the Mafca site.
I was amazed by the number of cars that are "restored".
Has the definition of the word changed?
Just wondering
Jim

Depends on the time to which it was restored.


Restored to factory is different to restored to the condition my Dad bought it.
Since the first person that wanted to sell something to another "stretching" the truth or even out and out deceit has been the norm when buying a used car. Being called a "used car salesman" is not a good thing.

[daveymc29]

None I own or have owned were restorations, then or now. Yet I enjoy tooling around in them whatever shape they are in. I took a guy for a ride in one as it sputtered and died a few times, then burst to life to get us home only to die a pathetic death as the coil melted onto the firewall. He told me that little drive was the most fun he had seen in years. Giggled like a young kid through the whole episode. Could have sold him the car to take home, he was so tickled. Just drove it to Heritage Day in San Jose with no issues. Man, I'm still the Ace mechanic once in a while. Since it's running so well, I plan to keep my hands off anything that moves or turns until there is a real reason.

[redmodelt]

People have been using the word restored when selling cars in much the same way as long as I have been around the hobby. Even today many cars that are called "restored" are not factory but the persons interpretation of what they were new. If you don't use the same paint, then they are not back to factory or grease or oil or top material even fabric. Not to mention 100% factory Ford parts.

[160B]

At a young age in the 1960’s when I went to a used car lot and looked at a 1957 Chevrolet, the salesman stated the engine had been rebuilt, my dad was with me and we went on a test drive. After the test drive I walked into the shop and asked the mechanic what he knew about the 1957 Chevrolet that I had taken for a test drive. He stated that the vehicle arrived with the engine disassembled in the trunk. I asked him if they rebuilt the engine and he stated that they reassembled the engine. So when you are told it is rebuilt or restored you need to ask specific question to determine what rebuilt or restored means.

[dean from bozeman]

24ruxstel1339, 'If you want a driver and don't care about trophies, then whatever...it's your car.'

I totally agree.

There are, as Dick Steinkamp points out, many different synonyms and therefore many uses of the word "restore". Conveying to potential buyers the definition that you used when working on your "A" is aided by photos and by explaining/listing any deviations from its original condition, e.g. radial tires, V-8 engine, hydraulic brakes, etc.

The point I think that Kahuna was making is that you can "see" many different definitions of the word "restored" just by visiting the classified ads on the MAFCA website.

It's interesting that MAFCA has a magazine called "The Restorer" and the popular series of books, "How to Restore your Model A". What variations of the definitions of the word "restorer"does MAFCA use?

[dumb person]

People tell me my 'restored' car, with original cutout & batter cables, correct top, new tires ect isn't even good for parts & i should crush it & give them the remains.

People choose their own interpretation these days.

[TerryH]

I think it is awfully late in the game to formally define and restrict the word restoration to the extremely narrow condition that it really should be....good luck in getting everyone to somehow adapt to that!

[ronn]

Man, I'm still the Ace mechanic once in a while. Since it's running so well, I plan to keep my hands off anything that moves or turns until there is a real reason.





very funny! we all get that feeling and aint it grand!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

MANY Model As for sale are just CLEANED & PAINTED. It's called a "USED CAR RE-CON" Bill W.[/B]

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Depends on the time to which it was restored.


Restored to factory is different to restored to the condition my Dad bought it.

Nail hit squarely on the head. The word "restored" by itself means little. Restored to what state. It seems to me that "restored" can legitimately mean put back to any state that it was prior to "restoring". Restored back to factory new condition is not the same as restored back to driving condition. Both cars are "restored" but to two completely different conditions. I have found that no matter what hobby you are in, there will ALWAYS be issues with terms being used and what they mean. You can't even use the dictionary because there are those that will say that the dictionary is wrong and that their interpretation is correct.

[john in illinois]

Around here "restored" means paint and interior. The mechanicals are never part of it.

A friend ,new to a's, bought a nice looking Tudor that was "restored" several years ago. When he had a lot of problems he found a lot of worn out parts that were painted and put back in
such as steering balls with paint still on the worn areas.

John

[Jeff/Illinois]

There's all types out there in all of the antique and muscle car world today.

Case in point. Recently a friend went to a Mecum Auction. I watched on TV and thought about several cars that went through the auction and sold 'wow that's a pretty decent price on that car'.Mecum is a Reserve Auction you can hold the car if it doesn't meet your reserve. Of course you pay the auction house a fee for running your car that's only right.

When I said something to my pal that was actually AT the sale he said to me 'Yeah, 'such-and-such' might have looked good on TV BUT you should have seen it in person. What a turd.' Like Wild Bill said 'Many Model A's are just cleaned and painted.'

I'd never buy an old car w/o first going to see it in person.

[Bob-A]

I probably shouldn't admit this about myself, but..... I've bought/won at auction three antique cars that I personally did not check out before hand.
Other then look at pics and talk to the seller. They all turned out to be good
cars. The last antique car I acquired after checking it out myself. Turned out to be a lemon/turd/POS, etc. "Kind'a makes ya' wonder......."


Bob-A

[Lona]

What gets me is the guys with their "restored" cars with paint jobs far superior to what Henry ever produced.

Glen

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

JEFF/ILLINOIS was kind, to call me WILD BILL, but he should see me in the A.M, before my ANTI-PAIN- PILL & COFFEE--LOL----I HATE mornings & have a terrible time, just gettin' into LOW GEAR & I "suspicion" that my CLUTCH slips, a little. Is there something I can SPRAY into it???
Buster T, the Dog, is even SLOWER than me. Did you know that Dogs sleep an average of 22 HOURS a day? If I did that, I'd never be able to even git up!
Bill Limited

[dean from bozeman]

Originally Posted by Lona

What gets me is the guys with their "restored" cars with paint jobs far superior to what Henry ever produced.

Glen

Glen, I once had a 32,000 mile Fordor with the original paint. When buffed out its paint had a "depth" that few (if any) restored cars can emulate. I drove that car a bit and once rode in an "A" that had 4,000 original miles. We may restore but with both the paint and the drive train, we are only close. Only close.

[Licensed to kill]

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Originally Posted by Lona

What gets me is the guys with their "restored" cars with paint jobs far superior to what Henry ever produced.

Glen

I would venture to say that there is not one person living that can honestly say that the know what the paint on a brand new model A looked like. Time changes everything and even if one was to find a model A with no miles on it that was stored indoors it's entire existence, it would not look the same today as it did the day it rolled off the line.

[dean from bozeman]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1yjw7hfiv...ordor.jpg?dl=0

I hope the image of the 4,00 mile original Fordor can be seen. I haven't tried to post a photo for quite some time.

Could someone please post this photo? Thanks.

By the way, this car was stored indoors for most/all of its life. When purchased it had 2,700 original miles.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Beautiful car!

[Licensed to kill]

Awesome car thanks for posting. I wonder if this car was parked next to a good, 15 year old restoration, restored to new condition, if anyone could tell the difference. I'm thinking MAYBE if they were TOLD that one was original and one restored some could tell which was which but if nobody was told, I bet nobody would say "Hey, this one is original and this one is a restoration". BTW, note I said a GOOD restoration.

[Pmsqrd]

It seems that most of the original paint low mileage cars are painted Andalusite blue. I have seen at least six that color.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill

Awesome car thanks for posting. I wonder if this car was parked next to a good, 15 year old restoration, restored to new condition, if anyone could tell the difference. I'm thinking MAYBE if they were TOLD that one was original and one restored some could tell which was which but if nobody was told, I bet nobody would say "Hey, this one is original and this one is a restoration". BTW, note I said a GOOD restoration.

Yeah, I think a knowledgeable restorer could tell. For example, put this Fordor next to Marco's 40B which has a 15+ year old restoration and I think there is a select few that could. The main reason why is that generally speaking, the top-level Model-A restorations are vehicles that have been refurbished using the Judging Stds' as the benchmark. There are a few minor (-but significant) details in that 'rule book' that would differ from an all-original Model-A. Items such as frame paint, glass logo, tire date codes, etc.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Dean I'll take that judgement of your Fordor to the next level above what Dick said. 'OUTSTANDING'.

Love the car I can just sit and look at it all day long

I'd love to ride in a low mileage original Model A Ford someday. I've always heard nothing but praise for the cars and how they operate, brake, ride, and handle. As in 'no comparison' to what you've been around before.

[Gary Karr]

I saw and drove this 4,000 mile Standard Fordor about a month ago. It is still as it was in the picture posted above and starts, drives, and sounds like a new car!

[WHN]

Great looking car. I would love to have the honor of a test drive.

Can anyone who has driven a truely low mileage Model A please try to make a comparison to a correctly restored car and a topical shade tree mechanic’s car?

How are we doing as a hobby?

[dean from bozeman]

Jeff/Illinois, unfortunately this Fordor is not mine. It, however, is a gorgeous time capsule of the Ford car that we love.

WHN, Gary Karr is the man to ask about that. He has ample experience with both. My experience is that the original cars seem solid and power is smoother and steady.

Let me just throw in a story here. - At the national MARC meet in Merryville I had my 32,000 mile Fordor (not the one pictured, that one has 4,000 original miles) at the swap meet just to show people. As the day wound down I found myself talking to a man who was very interested in the car and about original cars in general. I looked at him and asked, "How many miles do you drive your "A" annually?" I forget the answer but I was comfortable enough to point to my trailer that was in a field a couple hundred yards away and threw him the key. "Meet you at the trailer", I said. He drove it to the trailer and got out. The look on his face was the one that guys have when they've fallen in love.

I sold that Fordor to a collector whose family is also into the hobby. So I knew that the car would be well taken care of and would probably have a great life with that family for years (generations) to come. Another story: the new owner brought that Fordor to the MAFCA meet in Loveland, CO. Another person brought a near identical original Fordor. I judged both and noticed that the engine numbers were within 300 engines or so of each other. Truly siblings!

[28Ca8149]

There is getting less people every day that can tell if the car is original or not .My28 roadster has a honey comb rad and a plate glass windshield from new .Ford. Told me years ago that it was assembled in Regina SK and they ran out of radiators so they got some from the local hardware just to finnish the shift .I knew both the first owners and the Ford dealer ,Zable Motors. I was at an acution sale where they were selling a COPO Camaro.I ask them to see some of the numbers .They refused me . I have one and know they were lying . Buyer be ware. My 30 Fordor is now Finnished ,10 + years restoration to original,with new parts,new glass,tires ,interior and paint . not original but better than when new

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by 28Ca8149

There is getting less people every day that can tell if the car is original or not .

I was at an acution sale where they were selling a COPO Camaro.I ask them to see some of the numbers .They refused me . I have one and know they were lying . Buyer be ware.

That is getting to be more and more common especially with the 60's muscle cars. Ya gotta be careful and know what you are looking at, as you were. A friend who is into Chevy's pretty heavy once told me that 'There are more '62 409 Impala Super Sports and '70 Chevelle SS's running around today than what GM actually built.' I found that interesting. And I'm sure he is correct.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Some People do STRANGE THINGS! I heard of a Man that bought a '55 Thunderbird & displayed it like a "MUSEUM" piece, in a Casino. It had ONLY 27 Miles on it! ORIGINAL EVERYTHING, even the BATTERY/TIRES/ETC. Tubes had been replaced, to keep the tires up. WHAT A WASTE!!!----AND they think I'm NUTS????
It would cost a "SMALL FORTUNE", just to get it driving, again!
Bill W.

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by 28Ca8149

There is getting less people every day that can tell if the car is original or not .My28 roadster has a honey comb rad and a plate glass windshield from new .Ford. Told me years ago that it was assembled in Regina SK and they ran out of radiators so they got some from the local hardware just to finnish the shift .I knew both the first owners and the Ford dealer ,Zable Motors. I was at an acution sale where they were selling a COPO Camaro.I ask them to see some of the numbers .They refused me . I have one and know they were lying . Buyer be ware. My 30 Fordor is now Finnished ,10 + years restoration to original,with new parts,new glass,tires ,interior and paint . not original but better than when new

About three years ago I went to a local estate auction of a Model T and Model A restorer.Very nice cars and parts that mostly went for a reasonable amount.Lots of Model A parts that day did not interest me then,wish I could go back. The thing that amazed that day was the 1930 Model A roadster that sold,beautifull car and again I wish now I could go back and check it out better. The auctioneer before selling disclaimed that the title was for a 1930 Tudor not for a roadster.An old friend of the deceased told me right then and there that it was a steel body reproduction on the tudor running gear,I imagine Brookville,this was not disclosed by the auctioneer if he did know or not. Now what was really unbelievable was the selling price was over $30,000 by a phone bid.The roadster was a beautifull blue and I think more like a standard roadster build. Of all the cars that day that is the one that shocked me the price even if it was an all original car. I did not get the Model A buy again bug until about 6 months ago.

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Yeah, I think a knowledgeable restorer could tell.

I'm not sure i understand. If a restorer is knowledgeable enough to tell the difference, why wouldn't he/she use that knowledge to make their own restorations authentic enough to not be noticeably different from this well preserved original??.

[Jeff/Illinois]

37 Coupe that is interesting about that Roadster.

Looks like the Brookville line maybe won't really affect values of originals all that much, if this is typical. May even create more interest and bump up the values?

Seems like I read on here about a restoration shop that did a '28 Roadster in a repop body (Brookville?) and it turned out quite nicely and actually fooled most of the Model A community. I'm sure I would have been one of them that off hand wouldn't have spotted it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill

I'm not sure i understand. If a restorer is knowledgeable enough to tell the difference, why wouldn't he/she use that knowledge to make their own restorations authentic enough to not be noticeably different from this well preserved original??.

Good point, ...and hopefully this will help you understand. Each restorer should do their own research and come to their own conclusion(s) regarding what is accurate and authentic for their Model-A(A). The 'Model A Restoration Guideline & Judging Standards' book produced by both clubs is provided for two main objectives. The first is it is a guideline for someone who does not wish to spend a large amount of time researching the authenticity and/or the correctness of their vehicle. In other words, it is a compilation of other hobbyist's research. The second objective for that book is to be a Judging Standard, -or Rule Book by which a vehicle is to evaluated against in a competition format. In this book, there are slight deviations that are not exactly how the vehicle was manufactured, ...or there are liberties given to the competitors. An example of such liberties might be an area where parts that were originally unfinished (bare metal) are allowed to be painted in the interest of preservation of the vehicle. Another such area is coating or paint materials used. While we know based on reading the M-Specs of different coatings, that fenders & wheels were an alkyd enamel, bodies were painted with nitrocellulose lacquer, certain chassis components either alkyd enamel or pyroxylin, and the frame itself painted with bituminous tar. The RG&JS book does not require those specific coatings to be applied. Therefore most restorers use modern coatings readily available to them. That is why that most accurately restored Model-As can be distinguished from an original one.