Detergent oil

[David L. Holloway]

Is there any problem with using modern HD crankcase oil in 1930 Model A? My engine was rebuilt in 1972 but only has about 100 test drive miles on it. It has been stored since then. I am just now completing restoration and running engine again. Should I use non detergent oil (if I can find it) or is the modern SAE 10W30 ok?

[WHN]

My recommendation would that you use 20-50 detergent oil for at least break in period.

I would not recommend using non detergent oil in your engine.

After break in, depending on time of year and where you live, there are many different views. I am sure you will hear some shortly. Enjoy you car.

[SGT in Ont.]

You can use pretty much any modern oil you want. If you have Babbitt bearings I would stay away from the fuel saving oils like 5w20. Many people use diesel engine oil and others use synthetic.

[Terry, NJ]

Here we go....... Again! No! I wouldn't use non detergent oil in your mod. A! But here's what I would do. Start it on the old old that's in it now, run it for 10-15 minutes and drain it out. Refill with any cheap oil. run it for ten hours and dump that. Then I would refill with Shell Rotella 15 / 40. Why such a involved process? Simple,when the car was stored in 1972, the engine acquired moisture in places we can only guess at. Like the cam lobes, valve stems, cylinder walls, etc. Starting the engine will scrape the rust off these surfaces and it will circulate in the oil as grit. If you don't scrape it off, It will contaminate the new oil and cause wear. The Shell Rotella is what most of us use, available from TSC in ten qt. containers. One thought to keep in mind, the worst oils of today are better than the best oils of 1930. And there really is no "Best" oil for a mod. A. I'd change at 1000 miles. Remember, These cars made it through the depression when oils changes were a luxury and WW2 when there was no oil. They took their oil out, settled the dirt out and put it back in, to run another 500 miles. Good luck!
Terry

[J Franklin]

10- 30 detergent in a good condition A motor is all you need to keep it running like a champ. if it is worn and loose use a thicker oil maybe.

[Kevin in NJ]

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At a very high level, oil engineers when asked about antique engines, will tell you that you need detergents and additives to prevent the build up of bad chemicals.

Really kind of a no brainer once you understand the detergents do not break up sludge. They only keep the very small stuff in suspension to prevent sludge. Additives keep things like sulfuric acid from forming.

The other thing to understand is the modern oils do not really break down. The additives get used up, but they still lubricate. You should NOT change your oil every 500 miles as that is a waste of resources. A few thousand or a few years would be better.

Now there may be something to using oils made for compression ignition (diesel). The A engine and the diesel engine share some characteristics that make logical sense.

In experience, just about any oil works well.
Engines will fail not because of the oil, but because they were not built right to begin with, so do not fret much.

Yes, I left out a bunch of details. Loose engines vs new engines vs broke in engines there are some considerations.

Also,

We have like 30 engines we have taken apart and it is interesting how well oiled they can be. One engine I had owned like 15 years and it was sitting in a barn for a long time before me. When it was tore down there was still a good coating of oil on the bearings. There would have been a wet start even if you cranked and started right off.

[duke36]

Some add ZDDP zinc additive, which has been reduced in oils due to catalytic converter issues.

[Jim Brierley]

I use 20-50, and do not add anything to it. New oils have some zink in them, just not as much as several years ago. Original Model A oils had none. The A has a forged steel cam, as opposed to cast like in modern engines. Also the A has very mild valve spring pressure, so added zink is not needed.

[David L. Holloway]

Thanks to all the replies! It appears most people recommend detergent oil. I was just afraid that the detergent oil might release a lot of sludge for a while into the system. I do plan to run with existing oil a few minutes just enough to warm and liquefy, drain out and then put new oil in.
On a slightly different subject, is there any problems using standard unleaded gas with ethanol ?

[mhsprecher]

Joe Valentine, a retired engineer from Texaco, gave a great seminar on oil at the recent MARC meet. I wish it had been videoed for sharing. Bottom line: Use detergent oil. The additives are what is important. They keep acids from forming and do lots of other things. There is a pretty good article on oils posted. I don't have time to look it up now, but a search should find it.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by David L. Holloway

Thanks to all the replies! It appears most people recommend detergent oil. I was just afraid that the detergent oil might release a lot of sludge for a while into the system. I do plan to run with existing oil a few minutes just enough to warm and liquefy, drain out and then put new oil in.
On a slightly different subject, is there any problems using standard unleaded gas with ethanol ?

No. I also add Marvel Mystery Oil to gas, helps with the valves and stabilizes gas.

I am sure you will hear pro's and con's on this one. Enjoy.

[J Franklin]

If you drive through the tankfuls quickly enough there shouldn't be trouble with staleness and hydroscopy. Ethanol is corrosive to tern finish.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

At a very high level, oil engineers when asked about antique engines, will tell you that you need detergents and additives to prevent the build up of bad chemicals.

Really kind of a no brainer once you understand the detergents do not break up sludge. They only keep the very small stuff in suspension to prevent sludge. Additives keep things like sulfuric acid from forming.

The other thing to understand is the modern oils do not really break down. The additives get used up, but they still lubricate. You should NOT change your oil every 500 miles as that is a waste of resources. A few thousand or a few years would be better.

Now there may be something to using oils made for compression ignition (diesel). The A engine and the diesel engine share some characteristics that make logical sense.

In experience, just about any oil works well.
Engines will fail not because of the oil, but because they were not built right to begin with, so do not fret much.

Yes, I left out a bunch of details. Loose engines vs new engines vs broke in engines there are some considerations.

Also,

We have like 30 engines we have taken apart and it is interesting how well oiled they can be. One engine I had owned like 15 years and it was sitting in a barn for a long time before me. When it was tore down there was still a good coating of oil on the bearings. There would have been a wet start even if you cranked and started right off.

Thank you, Kevin in NJ, for the accurate post. There are far too many oil myths running rampant, such as one claiming you need to add zinc! And another claiming that you must use non-detergent! So one is to dump zinc into a crankcase full of non-detergent 30W oil???

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[1crosscut]

If you are just going to start it up and let it idle until warm and then change the oil you might be waiting a while for the oil to warm up. That is if you have a cooling system in good order.
In your case I would get a piece of cardboard to cover the radiator to help get it warmed up. Place an inexpensive meat thermometer in the coolant and monitor the water temperature while you are warming it up.
Using the thermometer often while you are getting used to driving your A will give you a lot of information on how your engine is operating. As you get comfortable with it you will use the thermometer less and less.

[40 Deluxe]

Before even cranking it over for the first time, loosen the oil drain plug and let a little oil ooze out. Any condensation will have settled to the bottom. No point in circulating grunge!

[Jim Brierley]

Do as 40 Deluxe says, then remove the dist. and pour a quart of oil in there and start ASAP, this will pre-lube the main bearings, any oil will do for this.

[Dodge]

You may also want to pull the valve cover. I have seen several motors that have been sitting for a long time have rust and crud build up in there from condensation. The back of the valve cover rusts.
If you don't clean it you will be sending it down to the main bearings.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by David L. Holloway

Is there any problem with using modern HD crankcase oil in 1930 Model A?

NOPE! Any oil designed for motor vehicles of the correct weight will work just fine.

[Mr. J]

Alittle info on rotella.... in my experience it has the best lubricating value of any oil, I had a certified mechanic tell me once that he ran into a problem with it lubricating too well and bypassing the scraper ring and the engine lost compression and he had to do a top end flush on the engine, but ive never seen it happen myself
But I can tell you I use it in my dodge cummins, all of my equipment, and my grandfather used it in his big rigs for over 30 years in the coalfield's and the motors looked as good as new after miles of diesel soot accumulating in the oil and it never lost its lubricatin value....
In my opinion if you want superb lubrication I would go with it, I even plan on putting it in mine when I get to that stage in the checklist

[wingski]

I agree with all of the replies, but no one really mentioned synthetic oil. I'm going to go with fully synthetic oil when I start driving my A. If it sets for any long periods of time I'd rather have synthetic oil in it. Also, since A's have a tendency to run warm or hot, I'd rather have oil that doesn't break down with heat. Good luck with your A.

[mhsprecher]

I use synthetic. A little more expensive, but I run it in all but one of my vehicles, new and old. I am running 10-30. I plan to change to 10w-40, as 40W was what was recommended by Ford at the time. As long as the cars run well, that is all that matters, whatever oil you use.

[J Franklin]

I have never seen a Ford recommendation for 40w oil, but I haven't seen everything.

[mhsprecher]

J FranKlin, let me check and I will post my findings. It should be easy to verify.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

I have never seen a Ford recommendation for 40w oil, but I haven't seen everything.

Quote from the 1931 Model "A" Instruction Book: "In general an oil having the body of S.A.E. viscosity No. 40 will prove satisfactory for summer use. For winter use oil having the specification of S.A.E. No. 20 should be used. It is essential, however, that this winter oil have a low cold test."

[raprice]

Originally Posted by David L. Holloway

Thanks to all the replies! It appears most people recommend detergent oil. I was just afraid that the detergent oil might release a lot of sludge for a while into the system. I do plan to run with existing oil a few minutes just enough to warm and liquefy, drain out and then put new oil in.
On a slightly different subject, is there any problems using standard unleaded gas with ethanol ?

Where I live, I don't have a choice when it comes to gasoline. All our gas has ethanol. So, whenever I fill my tank, I add Sta-bil alcohol treatment to stabilize my gas.
Rog

[WHN]

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Please remember that this is a flat tapped engine. Without an oil filter. That has a non pressurized engine lube system. I would not recommend using to light of a weight oil. The oil is the only cushion you have. I have found with our engines that 30 SAE in summer is light and the engine is noisy. Put 20-50 SAE in and things return to normal. In heated garage not driven in winter. We are all as different as our engines. Enjoy.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by wingski

I agree with all of the replies, but no one really mentioned synthetic oil. I'm going to go with fully synthetic oil when I start driving my A. If it sets for any long periods of time I'd rather have synthetic oil in it. Also, since A's have a tendency to run warm or hot, I'd rather have oil that doesn't break down with heat. Good luck with your A.

If the synthetic is of the correct weight and is designed for vehicle use it is fine.

[Smooth_One]

I run straight 30 weigh Kendall oil in my car and then top it off with Marvel Mystery Oil and all has been good and quiet.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Smooth_One

I run straight 30 weigh Kendall oil in my car and then top it off with Marvel Mystery Oil and all has been good and quiet.

Kendall! Don't see that brand in this part of the country. When I was a kid in the early '50's Kendall advertised in magazines like the Saturday Evening Post. The ads featured a hand raised with two fingers making a "V" sign and the slogan said "Kendall! The two thousand mile motor oil". The usual interval was 1,000 miles so I guess you cut oil expense in half! Now my VW Diesel goes 10,000 miles between changes.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi David,

A. I can imagine perhaps your initially staying up all night reading and re-reading all 28 different replies on recommending 20-50, not 5W-20, 15-40, 10-30, add ZDDP, add MMO, use synthetic, no 40W, Engineer recommendations etc., etc.

B. Just in case you had to take Alka-Seltzer, and/or are beginning to acquire stomach ulcers to decide on oil, help is really just around the corner.

C. Just drive your Model A to your nearest Wal-Mart and tell some young non-Model A guy you just need a damn simple oil change ...... and tell him just like that .... don't leave the damn out ...... he will understand.

D. Wal-Mart has trained, oil changing guys that change oil in millions of cars a year with absolutely no problems ...... nothing at all like all of the burnt up and gummy Model A re-built engines we hear about every week on this Forum

E. Hope this helps anybody in the future to choose a peaceful lubrication selection of modern detergent oil where one has a similar situation of only 100 miles on a rebuilt Model A engine.

[Jim Brierley]

Diesel oils are not recommended in gasoline engines, although many seem to use it, I don't.

[lukescoupe]

Rotella for me

[H. L. Chauvin]

Wal-Mart Oil Changers ..... millions of 100% success stories.

[Railcarmover]

Diesel grade oils have higher shear properties,better detergent and soot entrainment properties and better viscosity modifier properties than gasoline engine grade oils.Entrainment properties hold dirt and soot in suspension,allowing it to be removed with the drain instead of depositing on parts,critical with engine not running an air filter.Shear means they handle load better,good for soft babbit bearings.Improved Viscosity modifier properties means it resists breakdown when running multi viscosity oils..15-40 wt breaks down to 15w when the modifier fails,a higher stability factor means higher resistance to breakdown.

[Kevin in NJ]

Here is a link to an oil and grease guy who makes old style oil products.

http://steamenginelube.com/lubeuse.html

You can go around his page and learn about the U-joint grease that was specified for the A.

[FRANK PKNY]

Don't use synthetic oil ! It will leak from every part that leads to the outside. It's far to slippery for your antique engine to handle. Regular Rotella oil 20w-50 is just fine or any diesel oil will be just fine. It can sit for years, but any oil while sitting will just migrate into the pan, that's why it's best when sitting for a long time to pre-lube through the distributer shaft. I run MMO in my fuel on all older engines, have done so for many years and swear by this practice. Some frown at this, but I have never had a valve problem. One of my friends has a Ford 9n tractor, the valves hung up from the modern type gas, I freed them up and got him started on MMO and he has not had any problems with the valves in the last five years. JMHO
When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it” - Henry Ford

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

.Improved Viscosity modifier properties means it resists breakdown when running multi viscosity oils..15-40 wt breaks down to 15w when the modifier fails,a higher stability factor means higher resistance to breakdown.

During my 27+ years as a mechanic for Arizona Hiway Dept. we saw the opposite. We ran 15W-40 diesel oil in everything for many years to reduce inventory. When we were thinking of extending oil changes from 5,000 miles to 7,500 miles in cars and pickups, we did a lot of oil sampling. The oil in 350 Chevy pickups would often start to thicken after 5,000 miles if used hard. Seems like some samples came back as 50W!

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

During my 27+ years as a mechanic for Arizona Hiway Dept. we saw the opposite. We ran 15W-40 diesel oil in everything for many years to reduce inventory. When we were thinking of extending oil changes from 5,000 miles to 7,500 miles in cars and pickups, we did a lot of oil sampling. The oil in 350 Chevy pickups would often start to thicken after 5,000 miles if used hard. Seems like some samples came back as 50W!

Interesting..my experience with viscosity modifiers comes with higher soot numbers during analysis,acid build up and a subsequent drop in viscosity signaled breakdown..oil looked like black water..not arguing your findings,its entirely possible to fail 'up' the chain..my history is almost 100% diesel.

[Mr. J]

Another diesel oil I can vouch for is delo, I may use rotella because it is better suited for my line of work and conditions, but my brother runs delo in his 6.0 powerstroke and his dump truck for the simple fact that it doesn't create as much stiction in the high pressure oil pump in the injection system on the powerstroke in fact caterpillar uses delo oil for their hui injection system which runs under the basic principals it might say cat on the can but it's delo inside

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Diesel grade oils have higher shear properties, better detergent and soot entrainment properties and better viscosity modifier properties than gasoline engine grade oils.Entrainment properties hold dirt and soot in suspension, allowing it to be removed with the drain instead of depositing on parts,critical with engine not running an air filter.

One thing that we tend to overlook is detergent oils do suspend dirt and soot, in turn circulating them through the engine bearings and other wear points. *Non-detergent oil allows the dirt and soot to settle out into the pan.

This is why I am a proponent of adding filters to the Model A, both oil and air filters.

*I'm not proposing anyone use non-detergent oil, I use Chevron Delo 400 15w40.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

One thing that we tend to overlook is detergent oils do suspend dirt and soot, in turn circulating them through the engine bearings and other wear points. *Non-detergent oil allows the dirt and soot to settle out into the pan.

This is why I am a proponent of adding filters to the Model A, both oil and air filters.

*I'm not proposing anyone use non-detergent oil, I use Chevron Delo 400 15w40.

Thats the point of suspension sir,to keep the debris suspended in the oil keeps them from depositing on the bearings..the debris and particulate I'm referring to are too small to be trapped by the filter. Delo 400,Rotella or any 15-40 API CJ-4 provides the best protection In my opinion.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Thats the point of suspension sir, to keep the debris suspended in the oil keeps them from depositing on the bearings..

And I wasn't disagreeing with you, Sir. And that is why I still advocate using an Air Filter and an Oil Filter. Yes, some of the smaller "particulate" won't be filtered, but larger particles will... before they get to the bearings.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Interesting..my experience with viscosity modifiers comes with higher soot numbers during analysis,acid build up and a subsequent drop in viscosity signaled breakdown..oil looked like black water..not arguing your findings,its entirely possible to fail 'up' the chain..my history is almost 100% diesel.

My take on this is that Diesels burn so little fuel at idle that the cylinder walls are cool enough that some fuel 'condenses' instead of vaporizing so it doesn't all burn and some gets past the rings into the crankcase, thus diluting the oil resulting in lower viscosity. Gasoline engines, on the other hand, will evaporate any gas out of the oil since gas vaporizes at a much lower temperature than diesel fuel.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Bit of Financial Advice:

If any Model A guy ever looks on the NY Stock Exchange and sees a new company listing. e.g.,

"Model A OiL - Exclusively Designed for Model A's"

Pass it up ..... nobody on this Model A Forum will buy this crap.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

And I wasn't disagreeing with you, Sir. And that is why I still advocate using an Air Filter and an Oil Filter. Yes, some of the smaller "particulate" won't be filtered, but larger particles will... before they get to the bearings.

Its all good from my view,please don't take me wrong. The more filtration the better,as fars as Im concerned..though the aftermarket bypass filters would take about thirty years to filter the crankcase .

You have an interesting theory on dilution effects 40 Deluxe..No doubt about the gasoline evaporation effect,but the unburnt fuel that does get passed the rings carries soot and is very acidic.In my opinion it causes breakdown of the oil and contributes to bearing failure.I still see the advantages of the CD oils as opposed to the SN oils with the A engine..the CD oils are more tolerant of gasoline washing past the rings due to its superior detergent and soot entrainment qualities.

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Bit of Financial Advice:

If any Model A guy ever looks on the NY Stock Exchange and sees a new company listing. e.g.,

"Model A OiL - Exclusively Designed for Model A's"

Pass it up ..... nobody on this Model A Forum will buy this crap.

I disagree, as often as this comes up and given all the different recommendations, a whole lot of people would buy it.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

The more filtration the better, as fars as Im concerned..though the aftermarket bypass filters would take about thirty years to filter the crankcase .

I agree. I would only use a full flow filter system such as the one offered by Mike's "A" Fordable.

[Kevin in NJ]

Here is a question..

Who knows of any recent engine that has had issues with dirt causing pre-mature wear and failure?

Who knows of any recent engine that has failed because the oil went bad?

So far I have never heard of any, modern or old normal engines that may have failed because the oil failed or too much dirt caused it to fail. Of course, I want to hear some science to back up the diagnosis, not 'it must have been the oil'.

All the A engines that I have seen failed have been because something was built wrong or it was just plum wore out from tens of thousands of miles.

You all just worry too much about stuff that makes no sense. The car does not need filters. It does not need fancy nothing. It just needs loving care in the building and it you can run it regularly and it is ready to run the next day, for decades!! You do not need to baby it either. If it is balanced right the engine will be happy run.

How do I know this?

I have listen carefully to the guys who have run for tens of thousands of miles. They have tried everything and the common thread with these guys is they know Fords original specs and the build to them. They do not bother with all the speed stuff (they all have tried it), some have counter balanced cranks and some have overdrives. They all think nothing of running 55 MPH all day long.

Quit worrying about he oil.
Use something with additives, do not change it too often, go drive.

[Gaspumpsam]

Kevin in NJ
Very well said!!!

[Railcarmover]

No argument over the simplicity and robust characteristics of the car in stock form,and I agree spending thousands of dollars chasing speed from an L head 4 cylinder 200 cubic inch engine is at best a lesson on disappointment. But I do see modern oil as a way of improving the chances of what you have lasting longer,oil and air filtration are proven to extend engine life.


I see the full flow as the answer as well Y Block...just wonder if flow and pressure should be improved before adding the restriction of a filter.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Model A oil appears to be like personal liquor choices where some like white wine; some red; some dark beer; some light beer; some scotch, some bourbon; some gin; some vodka; some no alcohol.

Next comes the mix & additives; One shot, two shots plus MMO, stabilizers, and other additives.

Model A owners will always have different mindsets and different choices where one (1) oil will never corner the market no matter who prepares the marketing.

A bar that sells only gin will also go broke in a hurry.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Model A oil appears to be like personal liquor choices where some like white wine; some red; some dark beer; some light beer; some scotch, some bourbon; some gin; some vodka; some no alcohol.

Next comes the mix & additives; One shot, two shots plus MMO, stabilizers, and other additives.

Model A owners will always have different mindsets and different choices where one (1) oil will never corner the market no matter who prepares the marketing.

A bar that sells only gin will also go broke in a hurry.

Very well put. I do however like my gas with MMO. I don't drink.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

I see the full flow as the answer as well Y Block...just wonder if flow and pressure should be improved before adding the restriction of a filter.

I believe the stock Model A oil pump, being a positive displacement pump, is more than capable of putting out more than enough pressure to overcome the restriction of an oil filter. The reason a stock Model A without filter has low oil pressure is the pump is pumping into a open space, the valve chamber, without any back pressure.

We sure have traveled far from the original question...

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Here is a question..

Who knows of any recent engine that has had issues with dirt causing pre-mature wear and failure?

Who knows of any recent engine that has failed because the oil went bad?

So far I have never heard of any, modern or old normal engines that may have failed because the oil failed or too much dirt caused it to fail. Of course, I want to hear some science to back up the diagnosis, not 'it must have been the oil'.

Don't know but I have seen (and heard) many more modern cars running like crap because of stuck hydraulic lifters... could it have been caused by dirt and varnish??

[H. L. Chauvin]

Did anyone notice that of all the different oils discussed on Model A Forums over the past 20 years, nobody ever mentioned Croton Oil, a Detergent Oil that was still being sold in drug stores during Model A days.

I used to hear the old people, (born in the late 1800's), talk about a person in our neighborhood who placed one drop of Croton Oil in the Punch Bowl at a Dance Party.

The Party was over in minutes ...... when discussing detergent oil, Croton Oil was real Detergent Oil.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Don't know but I have seen (and heard) many more modern cars running like crap because of stuck hydraulic lifters... could it have been caused by dirt and varnish??

Were they stuck or collapsed? I'm thinking the later. GM lifters love to leak down in the night so they need to be pumped back up the first few miles of running in the morning. Sounds like a box of rocks in a garbage disposal chatter. Fords from my experience are the other way and collapse once the oil thins out. Both problems caused by seals that are worn out.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

Were they stuck or collapsed? I'm thinking the later. GM lifters love to leak down in the night so they need to be pumped back up the first few miles of running in the morning. Sounds like a box of rocks in a garbage disposal chatter. Fords from my experience are the other way and collapse once the oil thins out. Both problems caused by seals that are worn out.

Didn't know there are seals in hydraulic lifters!

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Didn't know there are seals in hydraulic lifters!

thats what make them hydraulic - tappets or solid lifters are just that. no cushioning effect and thus must adjust valves and worry about zinc levels in modern engines (jeeps 4.0 straight 6 for example)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorANZ1Tptw

crude but shows how a hyd lifter works - some have seals some are extreme tight machining processes that act as a seal but wear increases the gap with time so as oil heats up it sounds like box o rocks cuz no pressure. but yes they can get stuck (generally from too much wear and parts bind) but from what ive seen and experienced they usually are worn out/leaky.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Didn't know there are seals in hydraulic lifters!

me neither

[H. L. Chauvin]

Are we really slipping that much with just a little over 2,000 viewers for this round of Detergent Oil?

Some times back the subject "Oil Change" hit over 14,000.

White Wall Tires might still be in the lead .... they topped 15,000 viewers.

"Air filters" & "MMO" did not do bad either.

[Railcarmover]

I agree,not much new to talk about involving the car..how about the Rouge? Why I heard they went through 3000 mops a month...that two men were employed just to fix mop buckets..