Interesting observation with a 59L block- Still pretty thick @ 3 3/8ths bore

[Tim Ayers]

Some of you know the struggle I'm going through to find an usable block.
Working with Ronnie Roadster (thank you again, Ron), we are hoping that we finally found one we can use. I was concerned since this block was already punched out to 3 3/8ths.
The motor was given to me by my friend and was given to him when he purchased a '35 Coupe. Guy he bought the car from said the motor was "toast".

Many deem 3 3/8" to be the outer limits of flat head engine. I was pleasantly surprised to hear how much "meat" is still left after being bored out so big.

Here are the results after Ronnie did some tests:

CYL Top Front Bottom Rear
#1 .130 .156 .161 .111
#2 .122 .151 .173 .122
#3 .142 .146 .178 .118
#4 .178 .155 .198 .188
#5 .165 .134 .158 .167
#6 .115 .129 .177 .130
#7 .119 .134 .166 .143
#8 .192 .105 .177 .182

Next, Ronnie measured the bores and found there is a good amount of taper to each bore

#1 is an additional .009 worn
#2 .008
#3 .008
#4 .007
#5 .006
#7 .006
#7 .006
#8 .008

So, you can see this particular block is still pretty thick even after being punched out to what many believe to be the outer limits for a street engine.

During tear down, I was surprised to find this motor had Ford script four ring pistons. We didn't know Ford ever offered pistons in this large of an oversize.

We are hoping a .010" hone will clean it up. Good news is Egge offers 3 3/8" pistons in + .010, .020, .030" sizes.

Purpose of this post is to validate that sonic testing is crucial step in the building process.

It passed visual and pressure testing and we'll know by the end of the week if this one is cracked or not.

If it turns out to be good, we'll move forward and use it. This will make it a 290-ish c.i. mill.

Hopefully more good news to follow...

[34fivewindow]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Some of you know the struggle I'm going through to find an usable block.
Working with Ronnie Roadster (thank you again, Ron), we are hoping that we finally found one we can use. I was concerned since this block was already punched out to 3 3/8ths.
The motor was given to me by my friend and was given to him when he purchased a '35 Coupe. Guy he bought the car from said the motor was "toast".

Many deem 3 3/8" to be the outer limits of flat head engine. I was pleasantly surprised to hear how much "meat" is still left after being bored out so big.

Here are the results after Ronnie did some tests:

CYL Top Front Bottom Rear
#1 .130 .156 .161 .111
#2 .122 .151 .173 .122
#3 .142 .146 .178 .118
#4 .178 .155 .198 .188
#5 .165 .134 .158 .167
#6 .115 .129 .177 .130
#7 .119 .134 .166 .143
#8 .192 .105 .177 .182

Next, Ronnie measured the bores and found there is a good amount of taper to each bore

#1 is an additional .009 worn
#2 .008
#3 .008
#4 .007
#5 .006
#7 .006
#7 .006
#8 .008

So, you can see this particular block is still pretty thick even after being punched out to what many believe to be the outer limits for a street engine.

During tear down, I was surprised to find this motor had Ford script four ring pistons. We didn't know Ford ever offered pistons in this large of an oversize.

We are hoping a .010" hone will clean it up. Good news is Egge offers 3 3/8" pistons in + .010, .020, .030" sizes.

Purpose of this post is to validate that sonic testing is crucial step in the building process.

It passed visual and pressure testing and we'll know by the end of the week if this one is cracked or not.

If it turns out to be good, we'll move forward and use it. This will make it a 290-ish c.i. mill.

Hopefully more good news to follow...

Tim, i have a 59L that was bored to 3 7/16 i have had no problems with it. It was originally built in 1960, all that i did to it was hone the cylinders, and put a set of rings in it.

[mike in tucson]

I also have a 59L that I bought (it was a bargain because it was bored 3 3/8"). We also got the Egge 3.375+ 0.010 pistons. I had it sonic checked, thinnest location was 0.098" wall......zero problems and zero overheat.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Many deem 3 3/8" to be the outer limits of flat head engine. I was pleasantly surprised to hear how much "meat" is still left after being bored out so big.
So, you can see this particular block is still pretty thick even after being punched out to what many believe to be the outer limits for a street engine.

During tear down, I was surprised to find this motor had Ford script four ring pistons. We didn't know Ford ever offered pistons in this large of an oversize.
Hopefully more good news to follow...

More than likely those pistons are counterfeit. Compare that Ford script closely with a known real Ford piston.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

More than likely those pistons are counterfeit. Compare that Ford script closely with a known real Ford piston.

Too late. They went in the trash. Really think someone would have gone through the trouble?

I'm going to look in the Green Bible to see. It was an odd one for sure.

[Bored&Stroked]

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I would really check the bores to see if they are round and with no taper. A hone will not fix any of these issues. Usually when the bores are worn this much, they are not uniform - so don't try to just hone them (if it was me, I would bore it).

You may need to do a .020 overbore to get the bores in good shape - then have custom pistons made. I'm surprised it is that thick - did he happen to take measurements up and down the bore? Most 3 3/8 blocks that I have sonic tested only have about .100 to .110 max in them. BUT - you don't know about years of rust and other things that come into play. Good luck with the engine - should be a BIG cube thumper!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I would really check the bores to see if they are round and with no taper. A hone will not fix any of these issues. Usually when the bores are worn this much, they are not uniform - so don't try to just hone them (if it was me, I would bore it).

You may need to do a .020 overbore to get the bores in good shape - then have custom pistons made. I'm surprised it is that thick - did he happen to take measurements up and down the bore? Most 3 3/8 blocks that I have sonic tested only have about .100 to .110 max in them. BUT - you don't know about years of rust and other things that come into play. Good luck with the engine - should be a BIG cube thumper!

Hey Dale:

I guess we'll see. I trust Ronnie's opinion fully on where the bores need to go. Still need to get the final word from mag testing.

So, let's say 3 3/8" +.010-.030 over, Potvin 3/8ths or Isky 1007B cam, aluminum flywheel, larger valves, and Ron's magic will make this motor a real hot rod mill.

Sitting on pins and needles waiting to hear.

[flatheadmurre]

From what i found out this far i can´t tell that the L, Y or upside down Y blocks are thicker or tougher...
A good non rusted block usually takes a 3 3/8 bore...it´s the state of the waterjackets that set it more then anything.
And you can usually hear how hard the blocks are when boring...one of then 427 nickelblocks make the boringbar scream going down the bore...
Honing with a ridgid hone should produce a round bore...otherwise Sunnen would have lied for years...lol

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Hey Dale:

I guess we'll see. I trust Ronnie's opinion fully on where the bores need to go. Still need to get the final word from mag testing.

So, let's say 3 3/8" +.010-.030 over, Potvin 3/8ths or Isky 1007B cam, aluminum flywheel, larger valves, and Ron's magic will make this motor a real hot rod mill.

Sitting on pins and needles waiting to hear.

How much stroke are you going to run, how many carbs, what application? In a bigger cube motor, you might even go to a Potvin 425 - depends on what you want to do with it.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

How much stroke are you going to run, how many carbs, what application? In a bigger cube motor, you might even go to a Potvin 425 - depends on what you want to do with it.

4" 2 X 97's to start on a Edelbrock Slingshot. '28 Roadster on a '32 frame. 28 tooth box to start, but have a 26 LZ geared box ready to go as well. Rear is a 3.78's with 16" X 7.00 rear tires.

I may go with 48's if it's not getting enough fuel.

Like your motor, I'd prefer to stick with 2 carbs at this point.

I've been talking to Pete about cams. I'm not opposed to going with the Eliminator, but it will be used as road car and the rumble will be used for my two boys. Need it to have something off the line with all that weight in it.

I have the 3/8ths in hand, but have a core boxed up to go to Pete for a grind yet to be determined.

[Ol' Ron]

Tim
Ran two stock car engines out to 3 7/16, one has been running around in a 40 coupe for the past 25 years. The pistons in the 296 were 4 ring pistons that looked like stock Ford pistons, but had no number on them. I find the Flathead world is a strange place.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Tim
Ran two stock car engines out to 3 7/16, one has been running around in a 40 coupe for the past 25 years. The pistons in the 296 were 4 ring pistons that looked like stock Ford pistons, but had no number on them. I find the Flathead world is a strange place.

Haha. The safety, if all else fails back-up motor may be one Ronnie has in stock which is at 3 7/8ths.

This cracked block blues is getting old quick.

I'll report back once I hear about mag testing.

[Ronnieroadster]

You all can rest nicely tonight knowing when Im finished helping Tim with his Flathead project he will have one heck of a kick ass combination. Now about a cam Im thinking the Crane R-450 would work just fine.
The honing will be accomplished with the good old tried and true Sunnen rigid hone in their highly successful machine that many quality shops use in place of boring blocks these days.
Old Ron I think the complete 3-7/16 bore engine I have was one that came from you or someone we both know a very long time ago. Its waiting to be reborn one day.
Ronnieroadster

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Glad you are almost there, Tim - fingers crossed for ya .....

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

4" 2 X 97's to start on a Edelbrock Slingshot. '28 Roadster on a '32 frame. 28 tooth box to start, but have a 26 LZ geared box ready to go as well. Rear is a 3.78's with 16" X 7.00 rear tires.

I may go with 48's if it's not getting enough fuel.

Like your motor, I'd prefer to stick with 2 carbs at this point.

I've been talking to Pete about cams. I'm not opposed to going with the Eliminator, but it will be used as road car and the rumble will be used for my two boys. Need it to have something off the line with all that weight in it.

I have the 3/8ths in hand, but have a core boxed up to go to Pete for a grind yet to be determined.

Sounds like fun! With Ronnie building it - you should have no problems and it will go like stink. Given you're only running two carbs, you might think about the Holley 2110's - like mine, you'll need more CFM than two 97's can really deliver (and really, I don't think the 48's really buy you anything). The Potvin 3/8's is a heck of a cam and as I've proven with my big roller, these engines can take a lot of cam (especially in a light car). You can always swap cams down the road - depending on what lifter type you will be running. I love roller lifters and lots of duration - they just get a bit expensive is all.

[Marvin/TN]

I have Ford script 4 ring pistions in my 30 A that has a 29 engine and if I remember right they are 108 thousands over size but that was way back in 1965 I think when I bought rings for it. I know a Model A engine is different than a Flat Head 8 cyl

[Tim Ayers]

Thank to all; especially to Ronnie. Hopefully we'll hear from the machine shop soon. I have no doubt that Ronnie will screw together one heck of flathead motor. Now I'm getting concerned the rest of the drive train won't be up to the task!

B&S: Remember that story I told you of the $100 Crowler rollers lifters and drill guide I pass on at a yard sale? Yeah, I'm still kicking myself and they would come in handy if we go with a BIG cam.

Cam wise, I guess Ronnie has other ideas. Haha.

Carbs: I'm really interested in those new big cfm 97's. They have the look and deliver the flow, so I may have to buck up. I don't know why and this is just my issue, but I don't like the look of Holleys. I know, silly right?

https://www.stromberg-97.com/carburetion/big97.asp 250 CFM from the BIG 97's.

Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the good vibes.

[Tim Ayers]

Just got off the phone with Crane. Still grind flathead cams and have the lobes for the
R-450. It would be $225 on my core.

Now, I would need Pete to do the lifters.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Just got off the phone with Crane. Still grind flathead cams and have the lobes for the
R-450. It would be $225 on my core.

Now, I would need Pete to do the lifters.

Tim guess who already has lifters and a cam

[Bored&Stroked]

Shocking Ronnie . . . shocking! I can't imagine you having some great stuff all ready to go! LOL Tim is in great hands! I hope to see you and Laura again soon - has been far too long.

[Bored&Stroked]

Something to ponder . . . I don't know that profile off-hand . . . but if it is a big-lift cam on a standard core, then you might want to think about a steel core.

Ronnie - what do yo u think about that profile on a 32 steel core? Is that a radius lifter profile - and at what radius? I just love discussions like this! And How!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Something to ponder . . . I don't know that profile off-hand . . . but if it is a big-lift cam on a standard core, then you might want to think about a steel core.

Ronnie - what do yo u think about that profile on a 32 steel core? Is that a radius lifter profile - and at what radius? I just love discussions like this! And How!

Here’s some light reading....

http://www.midstateantiquestockcarcl...at_heads4.html

[GOSFAST]

Just a "tip", we are working with a 3.375" block now that will go another .010"+ to clean it up.

I strongly recommend using a shop that has a block-plate for the finish honing. We block-plate every build but feel it's even more critical with these extra-large o'bores!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The more metal removed from the original bore size the more distortion occurs when the heads and fasteners are assembled. The plate eliminates any chance of "blow-by" at least from the ring area with the pistons at TDC.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Just a "tip", we are working with a 3.375" block now that will go another .010"+ to clean it up.

I strongly recommend using a shop that has a block-plate for the finish honing. We block-plate every build but feel it's even more critical with these extra-large o'bores!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The more metal removed from the original bore size the more distortion occurs when the heads and fasteners are assembled. The plate eliminates any chance of "blow-by" at least from the ring area with the pistons at TDC.

Thanks for the input Gary.

Monday is "go" or "no go" day.

Thanks for all support and well wishes. Please keep me in your "flathead prayers" this weekend and I'll report back once I hear.

Hopefully in a few weeks I'll be able to post a video of this beast running so we can all rejoice in the glorious noise! WHHHAAAAPPPPPPPPPPP! LOL!

[Ol' Ron]

Interesting thing about a torque plate. Back in the day, we didn't know about them, but many engines were bored to 3 3/8 and stroked to 4 1/8. The was called the 3/8 engine. Most were driven hard. And yes after 10/15 k miles were oil burners.. Sometimes piston clearance was too much, Jahnns Pistons were common, and run loose .005+. The stupid factor ran very high back then, but it was part of the learning process. The 296 I built 20 years ago was replaced by a blown 294 last year. I offered to rebuild the engine for the owner, but he said there was nothing wrong with it. He's keeping it for a spare. I guess we learn fro, our mistakes. Yes, I have a torque plate.

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Interesting thing about a torque plate. Back in the day, we didn't know about them, but many engines were bored to 3 3/8 and stroked to 4 1/8. The was called the 3/8 engine. Most were driven hard. And yes after 10/15 k miles were oil burners.. Sometimes piston clearance was too much, Jahnns Pistons were common, and run loose .005+. The stupid factor ran very high back then, but it was part of the learning process. The 296 I built 20 years ago was replaced by a blown 294 last year. I offered to rebuild the engine for the owner, but he said there was nothing wrong with it. He's keeping it for a spare. I guess we learn fro, our mistakes. Yes, I have a torque plate.

I made a crude one by cutting 3 7/8" holes into a cast iron head. I haven't used it yet, but i'm sure a precision made, thick metal plate would be better than the one I have.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

I made a crude one by cutting 3 7/8" holes into a cast iron head. I haven't used it yet, but i'm sure a precision made, thick metal plate would be better than the one I have.

Tim guess what else I have in stock Yep torque plate which will be loaned to the Sunnen operator along with the correct head gasket when we know its a go.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Tim guess what else I have in stock Yep torque plate which will be loaned to the Sunnen operator along with the correct head gasket when we know its a go.

Haha.

I was actually going to write, " Ronnie has his own plate", but I'm trying hard to keep your "Adult Day Care" program on the QT.

Henry is still talking about going to "Ronnie's place" and the chili at Redwood's. LOL!

I truly feel fortunate that you're helping me out with this project.

[Tim Ayers]

Happy to report the block is good!!!!!

I guess five is a charm....

More to come. The motor is in good hands....

[flatjack9]

Great news.

[Ol' Ron]

Gofast brought up a good question about block distortion. I believe this is true and fro the past 50 years have been torquing my engines to 45/50 lbs through 3 heat cycles, or as many as needed to get them tight. The deck of the block is thick and thin, which remotes distortion. Not sure what the application of engine is, but if for street, a wild cam is a wast of money.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Gofast brought up a good question about block distortion. I believe this is true and fro the past 50 years have been torquing my engines to 45/50 lbs through 3 heat cycles, or as many as needed to get them tight. The deck of the block is thick and thin, which remotes distortion. Not sure what the application of engine is, but if for street, a wild cam is a wast of money.

Ron:

It will be a hot street car and cam is still undecided. Will be using ARP studs which I hope will help some what.

Torque plate will absolutely be used. Plan is to try to get it to .010+, if not .020" Egge has this pistons so no worry about custom ones.

Will keep everyone updated.

[Ol' Ron]

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

Yeah, I hear ya. I have full confidence with Ronnie and I'm sure it will be good to go for many years. Ronnie has in mind that my 12 y.o. son is a flat head nut too and wants him to be able to clean it up if necessary once this car becomes his many years from now.

Ronnie rebuilt the motor in Fred Steele's roadster many years ago. That was at 3 3/8ths and needed to go .030+ to clean up. Motor is still running strong as ever, so I'm sure mine will too.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I never use studs, but that's not the issue. Torquing the heads beyond 50 lbs is unnecessary and can only cause trouble along the way. Torquing 24 studs to 45 ft/lbs is more clamping force than a blown Hemi has. Time is the killer here. after the cylinders distort the engine runs just fine, but the ringgs don't seat right and after 5 or 10 thousand miles, you have an oil burner.

Ol Ron some of your build ways are not how its being done these days. Using bolts in tired old threads promotes striping them out even at less than 40 pounds torque, Just using studs helps reduce the thread damage. Sure it cost more money using studs but hey I say do it once not twice. The cylinder distortion produced by any amount of torquing no mater what fastener is used is removed by using the torque plate any honing done without the use of a torque plate will cause the problem you mention time being the killer. As a note my HEMI conversion torque is far greater than what you use and take it from me its needs to be higher also on my 426.
Now having over 45 years of continuous personal experience in real world use both on the street for many thousands of miles as well as all out competition have proven to me there is a better way to do this.
Now i know Tims big bore engine will do some burning but its going to be tire rubber.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Using bolts in tired old threads promotes striping them out even at less than 40 pounds torque,

Just a tip here but anyone doing the finish honing using a block plate should test EVERY head bolt/stud hole for strength.

It's a very simple procedure to do when mounting the plate. It will all but guarantee no threads pulling during the final ass'y. Been down this road a few times myself over 50 years ago!

Simply bring the Torque on each bolt to about 30#/35# or so above the projected number for the final ass'y. If any threads are going to "fail" they most likely will at this stage!

We've been using this "test" method for years now, I posted about it a while ago up here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of a single hole showing the "test" number, we've never had a single thread loss later during the final ass'y period, not one.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Just a tip here but anyone doing the finish honing using a block plate should test EVERY head bolt/stud hole for strength.

It's a very simple procedure to do when mounting the plate. It will all but guarantee no threads pulling during the final ass'y. Been down this road a few times myself over 50 years ago!

Simply bring the Torque on each bolt to about 30#/35# or so above the projected number for the final ass'y. If any threads are going to "fail" they most likely will at this stage!

We've been using this "test" method for years now, I posted about it a while ago up here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.


P.S. Here's a shot of a single hole showing the "test" number, we've never had a single thread loss later during the final ass'y period, not one.

Strange that you should post that picture.
I have used that almost exact setup to test block threads for years.
Only difference is, I use 100 ft. lb. as the load, and that is after running a FULL size tap in the holes so there is bare clean metal for the stud to work on.
I have only had a few fail the test and they were repaired with steel plugs.

[Ol' Ron]

There are over 1300 people watching this thread, be nice if we could agree on a method of bolting a set of head on a block. Testing head bolt threads with 90/100 lbs of torque is going to strip out allot of threads. On my Bville engine I striped out a few at 50, which I had to repair. I use a head bolt slotted to clean the threads. The Hydro engine came back to be because it wasn't running right. I told the owner to retorque the heads after he ran it. I had re torqued it before i shipped it. When I got it back they were all loose. Yet the head gaskets were all good. Kinda makes you think. Just because you've done something for 50 years, doesn't make it right, just means your old. Like me. The best part of this engine is: it's very forgiving, considering the "stuff" we do to it.
/

[Pete]

Ron is right, you don't need to test street engine threads at 100.
If you are building engines, you need to determine what the engine will be used for and develop a set of test parameters for that type of engine.
An engine that runs 100% nitro or even straight alcohol with 14 to1 compression won't run very long with street parameters applied.
The other way around is just a waste of money.

There is no one set of rules that apply to all engines.

[Bored&Stroked]

RE: Retorqueing and Fastener Quality: When I ran stock studs and/or the cheaper aftermarket ones, I typically had to heat cycle and retorque 3 - 5 times . . . was just what you had to do to get to a point where the torque values held. (All I really used on performance flatheads are studs). Some of the retorque issues were due to the quality of the nuts and washers (distortion, etc). When I switched to ARP studs, and thicker ARP washers and nuts, it was a completely different situation. After one heat cycle, they will be VERY close to the original torque -- one little "torque tune-up" and I am pretty much ready to go. Another reason I like studs is that I surely prefer to be tightening on the fine threaded end of a stud - with a lot of moly-lube (versus the coarse end with some level of rust in the block, Teflon goop, etc). You get really consistent/smooth fastener rotation and more accurate torque values when you're not trying to screw a coarse-end thread into a cast iron block. Lastly, I want to screw around with the coarse block threads as little as possible - I set the studs, let the Teflon setup and leave them alone. ARP stuff is expensive (no question), but it is surely worth it on a performance flathead build.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

RE: Retorqueing and Fastener Quality: When I ran stock studs and/or the cheaper aftermarket ones, I typically had to heat cycle and retorque 3 - 5 times . . . was just what you had to do to get to a point where the torque values held. (All I really used on performance flatheads are studs). Some of the retorque issues were due to the quality of the nuts and washers (distortion, etc). When I switched to ARP studs, and thicker ARP washers and nuts, it was a completely different situation. After one heat cycle, they will be VERY close to the original torque -- one little "torque tune-up" and I am pretty much ready to go. Another reason I like studs is that I surely prefer to be tightening on the fine threaded end of a stud - with a lot of moly-lube (versus the coarse end with some level of rust in the block, Teflon goop, etc). You get really consistent/smooth fastener rotation and more accurate torque values when you're not trying to screw a coarse-end thread into a cast iron block. Lastly, I want to screw around with the coarse block threads as little as possible - I set the studs, let the Teflon setup and leave them alone. ARP stuff is expensive (no question), but it is surely worth it on a performance flathead build.

I second that

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

RE: Retorqueing and Fastener Quality: When I ran stock studs and/or the cheaper aftermarket ones, I typically had to heat cycle and retorque 3 - 5 times . . . was just what you had to do to get to a point where the torque values held. (All I really used on performance flatheads are studs). Some of the retorque issues were due to the quality of the nuts and washers (distortion, etc). When I switched to ARP studs, and thicker ARP washers and nuts, it was a completely different situation. After one heat cycle, they will be VERY close to the original torque -- one little "torque tune-up" and I am pretty much ready to go. Another reason I like studs is that I surely prefer to be tightening on the fine threaded end of a stud - with a lot of moly-lube (versus the coarse end with some level of rust in the block, Teflon goop, etc). You get really consistent/smooth fastener rotation and more accurate torque values when you're not trying to screw a coarse-end thread into a cast iron block. Lastly, I want to screw around with the coarse block threads as little as possible - I set the studs, let the Teflon setup and leave them alone. ARP stuff is expensive (no question), but it is surely worth it on a performance flathead build.

Proper clamping force (at each stud or bolt) is what we're after here so consistency is key. Now, say we decide 50 ft. lb. is the number to use to get the proper clamping force.
Here's the question: What is the difference in clamping force between a fine threaded stud and a coarse threaded bolt? Do we use a lower setting on the fine thread studs(say 45 ft. lb.) to get the proper clamping force? After all with a shallower "ramp angle" on fine threads, the clamping force should be higher for the same torque reading.
Of course, this is assuming the proper lube is applied, and the block threads are clean and undamaged.

[Ol' Ron]

]You realize that: Having a torque wrench is a modern convenience.]

[Tim Ayers]

Block going to machine shop with torque plate to check if .010+ Sunnen hone will clean it up. I’ll report back once we hear the verdict.

Please understand the sole intent of starting this thread was to provide some education on what these old blocks of capable of.

Many claim you can’t go out to 3 3/8ths on these engines. This block proved to be plenty thick enough to disprove that statement.

Many claim, they'll over heat at that size. I'm certain this motor will also disprove that belief.

I think the take away from all this is many have their own way of rebuilding these motors.

Some are tried and true and some are "cutting edge" per say. In the end, we all make our choices and wind up using whatever methods works best for us.

That said, I feel fortunate that Ronnie took on this project. For those you who haven't been in his shop, once step in you immediately realize you are in a place of someone who lives and breaths flatheads.

I won't give away his "trade secrets", but seeing the 5 main (yes, FIVE main) bearing set up he made for one of his Ardun race motors, I immediately knew I found the right man for the job.

As a wise man once did say, "Keep 'um runnin'!"

[tubman]

I'm constantly amazed at the folks who warn against a 1/8" overbore in an 8BA. Every one I've done had plenty of "meat" after the overbore. I'll bet Tim has room for another hone and re-ring if needed in the future.

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by tubman

I'm constantly amazed at the folks who warn against a 1/8" overbore in an 8BA. Every one I've done had plenty of "meat" after the overbore. I'll bet Tim has room for another hone and re-ring if needed in the future.

Yep. If you look at the numbers, it can go .030+, but we want to save some meat for my little guy once this hot rod becomes his.

[GOSFAST]

I wanted to add this info to this post earlier but had forgot about it!

For anyone using ARP stud kits OR bolt kits with their washers, on brand "new" aluminum heads only, you need to "sand" the sides of the washers resting on the head surfaces, in other words, on the sides towards the machined bolt bosses.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. This isn't our recommendation, it is straight from ARP. They tell us to use some 60 grit sandpaper (we use 80) to "break" the smooth surfaces. If this isn't done you run the risk of having the wrong Torque (it will be higher) on the fasteners even though you set the Torque wrench correctly!

[Ol' Ron]

My 280 ci engine is an old 276 bored .020" over. Egge makes 20 and 30 over 3 5/16 pistons for just this reason..

[Tim Ayers]

Heard back from shop. Motor needs to go .030+ to clean up the worst taper in one of the holes. It will make a 297 c.i. motor. Sadly, this means it's going to need to go as big as it can. I has hoping to only go .010+ to leave one more clean up for my sons once they own this beast. I guess they'll need to sleeve it once that time comes. Hopefully not any time soon.

So, now we've got to make some choices.

1) Is the cam going to be "big" enough? Right now I plan to use a Potvin 3/8ths. I have a core waiting to go to Pete for a Isky 1007B (which he recommends). I also have access to other full race cams; if needed.

2) Will two 97's feed it enough? Will have to play around with jets and consider going to those new "big" 97's if not enough cfm.

With an aluminum flywheel and a light clutch, this motor will "whap" pretty nicely.

My good friend, Zach Suhr, made the headers/exhaust for this beast. It's 1 3/4" mandrel bent J's into 3ft. of 1 3/4" straight into '36 drive shafts cut in half.

One thing is for sure, you'll hear this old gal coming. Haha.

More to come once things get finalized.

[flatjack9]

I don't like an aluminum flywheel on a street driven car. Much prefer a lightened stock flywheel.

[JSeery]

To me it depends on the vehicle weight, the rear axle ratio/tire combo & and how you want to drive it.

[Dave Castle]

Originally Posted by JSeery

To me it depends on the vehicle weight, the rear axle ratio/tire combo & and how you want to drive it.

And we have the final word !

[flatjack9]

Mine is in a 39 coupe. I have no problem getting going, but tend to get some bucking when slowing down. Just a little annoying. I'm sure the cam has something to do with that. And it is not a real wild cam. I think this would be more pronounced in a light vehicle.

[40cpe]

flatjack, I have a 276" 8BA/L100, stock flywheel in a '38 coupe that was bucking when slowing below 1200 rpm. I stumbled on 0 degree initial timing with no vacuum and it almost completely eliminated the bucking. I set the TDC mark with a dead stop when building the engine, so I'm confident it is correct. I adjusted for total advance and am pleased with how it runs.

[Tim Ayers]

Just ordered the pistons from Ross today. They were the only company that we knew of that offered this size piston with metric rings.

Since the motor is out so big, I wanted to use metric rings to reduce as much drag as possible. For the approx. $225 more than Egge's, I thought this was money well spent.

Only downside is they will take 4 weeks to get.

More to come.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Just ordered the pistons from Ross today. They were the only company that we knew of that offered this size piston with metric rings.

Since the motor is out so big, I wanted to use metric rings to reduce as much drag as possible. For the approx. $225 more than Egge's, I thought this was money well spent.

Only downside is they will take 4 weeks to get.

More to come.

Tim Wiseco will also make them for you with metric rings & are a very nice piston.
Cheers
Tony

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Tim Wiseco will also make them for you with metric rings & are a very nice piston.
Cheers
Tony

Ah, good to know.