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Old 11-28-2015, 10:00 AM   #21
P.S.
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Wow! So much information. Thank you, guys.

It appears that I have to decide how much vibration is acceptable and find a machine shop.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:29 AM   #22
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Call rich at AER and pick his brain
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

I think since this in such an important subject to us owners, it would be appropriate for members to relay who rebuilt their engine and got a smooth-running result, which is not to exclude other rebuilders, just relaying a personal positive result.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:57 AM   #24
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

I use to grind cranks in my Dads garage many years a go. Also ground them in the car if they lost one rod, not the best way but back then that is what people wanted.

Model A crank is very flexible. If you grind the center main you have to be very car full that you do not push the crank off the center line. It is a balancing act between the grinding wheel and the steady rest that supports the center main when you are grinding. You also need to be very care full that you get the crank on true center line.

The ones I see today that have been ground, have run out at the center main. Run out at the flywheel flange. Plus they do not have enough radius at the rod journals. This is also important because that is the weak point that will break first.
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:15 PM   #25
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Where does one find the rod big end and little end weights, wrist pin weights, piston weights, etc.

thanks
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:30 PM   #26
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericr View Post
I think since this in such an important subject to us owners, it would be appropriate for members to relay who rebuilt their engine and got a smooth-running result, which is not to exclude other rebuilders, just relaying a personal positive result.
I agree!
It's such important information it would be nice if folks would share it.
Al
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericr View Post
I think since this in such an important subject to us owners, it would be appropriate for members to relay who rebuilt their engine and got a smooth-running result, which is not to exclude other rebuilders, just relaying a personal positive result.
Your going to get mixed reviews without a definitive answer. There are to many variables and causes for vibrations.
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Very Precise Results ??????

Lots of time precision work comes from the guy who doesn't talk much, never brags, but can out perform any task handed to him in working with wood, steel, plaster, masonry, electronics, sheet metal, or whatever.

Just one (1) example:

Grab 1,000 guys in any town and hand them a fiddle after offering a $3,000,000.00 prize as to who can best play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" after practicing for one (1) year.

Come back in one (1) year to witness who has developed the hand and eye coordination and the precise timing and dexterity to operate a fretless instrument with one hand and a bow with the other.

Could be the loud mouth alcoholic who smokes cigars, could be the corner lawn mower repairman, the guy delivering the mail, or the chicken plucker who rides his bike to work every day.

One thing is certain ....... there will be an enormous difference between the talented and gifted winner and the loser.

In the end, after hours and days of discussion during the one (1) year trial period, one never really knows the final results until one hands them a fiddle ....... appears it is not much different with Model A engine rebuilding.
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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I think since this in such an important subject to us owners, it would be appropriate for members to relay who rebuilt their engine and got a smooth-running result, which is not to exclude other rebuilders, just relaying a personal positive result.

While I suppose that would have merit, doesn't it really boil down to what the customer is requesting his machinist to do? A more brutal way to say it is that often it boils down to what the machinist is being paid to do.

For example, if a customer walks into any experienced Model-A shop and asks specifically for them to match reciprocating parts and to balance them to factory specs., doesn't the logic say that each shop will likely build an equal-smooth running engine? For every hobbyist out there who will spend the extra funds to have a 'blueprinted' engine, there are likely three other hobbyists who will not spend the extra money necessary to have that 'blueprinted' engine. IMHO, it is those hobbyists that give most Model-A engine builders as a whole a bad rep.





Quote:
Originally Posted by tennsmith View Post
Where does one find the rod big end and little end weights, wrist pin weights, piston weights, etc.

thanks

I have collected most of my info from studying the factory blueprints which I obtained from the Bensen Library.
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

extremely subjective from car to car. some anecdotal examples:

our Town Sedan had a counterbalanced crank and was smooth as silk even at 60MPH.

our low mileage unrestored Coupe NEVER ran smoothly even after a counterbalanced crank was added.

our unrestored Tudor ran very smoothly with no modifications to the factory engine.

your results may vary.......
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:58 PM   #31
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
While I suppose that would have merit, doesn't it really boil down to what the customer is requesting his machinist to do? A more brutal way to say it is that often it boils down to what the machinist is being paid to do.

For example, if a customer walks into any experienced Model-A shop and asks specifically for them to match reciprocating parts and to balance them to factory specs., doesn't the logic say that each shop will likely build an equal-smooth running engine? For every hobbyist out there who will spend the extra funds to have a 'blueprinted' engine, there are likely three other hobbyists who will not spend the extra money necessary to have that 'blueprinted' engine. IMHO, it is those hobbyists that give most Model-A engine builders as a whole a bad rep.








I have collected most of my info from studying the factory blueprints which I obtained from the Bensen Library.
I am not sure the customer always has the expertise to know what to ask for.
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Old 11-28-2015, 05:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Hey P.S.,
Lots to digest here !
Sorry to hear of you feeling the strong vibrations...through the steering wheel...with an expensive engine rebuild. IMO as an neophyte builder, there is a great variety of 'things' that can and do make an engine shake. Lots of those reasons discussed here so far. I had a B engine built , up north calif, about 12 yrs ago.
NOS B block, brand new full B crank drilled, NOS B cam and set of new Crower rods.
I think that you know the guy who was responsible for my B build. I mention all these NEW parts, because they were double checked and installed into a NOS block.
This engine runs strong , fast and SMOOTH ! Just saying that what a guy puts into any engine is indicative of what will come out. Like when Ford put in all new balanced parts and we all loved what he did then !
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Old 11-28-2015, 05:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

there can be more than one way to look at this:

https://youtu.be/Eab_beh07HU
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Old 11-28-2015, 05:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Hey ericr,
You are spot on with this statement , IMO and experience ! Most guys do not build engines. Nor do we have the expensive equipment and extensive knowledge necessary to use such. These are reasons why we have to pay such ridiculously high $ to have , what we hope/pray, is high quality end product. Alas, it doesn't exactly work that way, because as customers we put limits on what time the builder spends in time/parts/work. To the ethical builder, time is money also. If you pay enough , you should get what you want (perfection?) but does THAT builder have the skills/ethics to deliver. I just know ONE guy who did deliver for me. However, to your point, I didn't know all that I should have, then, to get what I ultimately wanted....which would have cost more $. Getting experience is expensive . If I'd only known then , what I know now...would I have spent the extra $
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Old 11-28-2015, 06:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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I am not sure the customer always has the expertise to know what to ask for.
Very true Sir, ....however I can also share with you that many customers (in all type of businesses) already have their mind made up when they go shopping.

More specifically to prove my point, look at how many hobbyists here on this forum have their minds already made up on what is the "best" when a topic is discussed. Often times, these folks are not really interested in what the experienced person's advice is. I tend to believe that prudent shopper will always get several opinions from people with actual verifiable experience. As we know, often times a cheap price interferes with what is best. If the customer does not have the expertise in what they need to be asking, then who is at fault? Surely not the machinist's fault who likely was only following the direction given to him by the customer.
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Old 11-28-2015, 07:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Very true Sir, ....however I can also share with you that many customers (in all type of businesses) already have their mind made up when they go shopping.

More specifically to prove my point, look at how many hobbyists here on this forum have their minds already made up on what is the "best" when a topic is discussed. Often times, these folks are not really interested in what the experienced person's advice is. I tend to believe that prudent shopper will always get several opinions from people with actual verifiable experience. As we know, often times a cheap price interferes with what is best. If the customer does not have the expertise in what they need to be asking, then who is at fault? Surely not the machinist's fault who likely was only following the direction given to him by the customer.
I think you are 110% correct: people have their firmest opinions, about which they know the least.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

Excellent advice given thus far about certain customers.

Keen insurance representatives who insure businesses and/or professions carefully repeat this same scenario often where:

A sure way to get in trouble and quickly obtain a bad reputation is to try to "help" someone by doing "half" of a project and allow some other "unknown" person to "try" to finish the other half.

After failure, the one who performed the first half correctly usually witnesses "finger pointing" for the rest of his life for something done later that he never even touched.

Finger pointing ?????

Most elections are won this way ...... appears the majority never caught on ..... yet.

In reply no. 29 above, the Chicken Plucker's wife, (who wasn't mentioned), won the fiddle contest ...... just thought you wanted to know.
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Old 11-29-2015, 08:12 AM   #38
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

After reading all of this thread (whew!), it seems that the most helpful information would be a summary that educates us non-engine builders as to what we should ask for to get a particular "smoothness result". I'm thinking that this information is embedded in some of the posts above, but wouldn't it be helpful to know what to ask the rebuilder for? Often I think these topics boil down to understanding the terminology and how to ask for what we want...I suspect that the ethical rebuilders would explain options and make the choices clear to the novice, but an educated consumer is a powerful tool.

To this point.....please see Brent's last post (#35)!

Last edited by Pilotdave; 05-08-2016 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

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... often times a cheap price interferes with what is best...
To get "the best" many times one has to "pay the price" as well as wait in line, sometimes for an extended period of time.
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: So, really, in a well tuned Model A, how much vibration is 'normal'?

With what was stated here one should ask the builder, "what do you do to get a smooth running engine". Listen to his answer. Does he state weight, balance whole assemblies and so on? Yes, most likely good to go. If you get something like, "we have been doing this for XX years and we know what we are doing", go elsewhere.

If one were to do a search of the builders here on the forum you will find out that they all have mentioned step by step what they do when the build customers engines. Some have also contributed to this thread.
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