Continuing engine problem

[700rpm]

TODAY'S UPDATE: I took the block and pistons into Portland Engine Rebuilders today and told them they needed to hone to .0045. I explained that it all seems to have come down to the issue of the sleeves not transferring heat like a simple bore of the block, combined with the already questionable water distribution in the block. They posited the idea that the overheating may never be solved because of the sleeves. I've sleeved one other engine back to standard, and the builder claims he set the piston clearance at .003. That engine has never locked up, broke in like normal, and runs great.

At this point I am out of options. I'm going with the .0045, new rings, clean block, and new radiator, and if that doesn't solve this, I'm done.

ORIGINAL POST: I posted this over on the VFF, but some guys here don't read that forum, so I put this to the Barn:

This engine, with only 4000 miles on it since rebuild, has always overheated and locked up when shut down after overheating, which is usually when driven at 45 or less for 30 minutes or more. (This did not and does not happen when driven under 35 and/or just around town for less than 45 minutes). I thought I had this problem fixed. But apparently not.

Here is the history: On 3/16/14 I installed an engine which had been boiled out, sleeved back to standard, new pistons and rings from Snyder's, new valves, exhaust valve seats, new lifters, and new babbit by Bill Barlow. It was tight, but I figured it would loosen up during breakin, which I did very carefully, as I have done with all my previous engines.

After 2000 miles it was still overheating and locking up on shutdown. I took it apart to check measurements. Ring gap, rod bearings, and piston clearance were just where they should be, according tbirdtbird, Bill Barlow, Tom Godish, and several other commenters on the Barn. But when reassembled it had the same troubles.

At 3500 miles I went through the disassembly again and rechecked the clearances, just to make sure I had done it right before. I had (so I thought). So I put it back together, timed it to a gnat's eyebrow, thinking that might be the issue, drove it with the spark rod exactly where everyone agrees it should be in a stock engine. It still overheated and locked up.

Today I took it apart again, and again checked my piston clearances. I checked with my engine guru, Tom Gosish. He informed me I had been checking the piston clearance incorrectly. I had done it front and back. I was getting .004 that way. But side to side, the correct way, today I got .012 on all four pistons, except the driver's side #4, which was .016. These all seem excessive, so I don't see how too tight a fit resulting in expansion could be the situation causing the lockup.

Other notes: all spark plugs (Champion 3X) have perfect tan coloring.
There is very slight partial accumulation of carbon on the tops of 2 & 3.
This engine has always had a knock on deceleration, but after this last overheating, it is present in both acceleration and deceleration, but not a cruise speed. It's not like a rod knock; more like a loose wrist pin.
The cylinder walls show no signs of scoring or damage from the pistons. They are clean and shiny, though the crosshatching is gone.
It is not burning oil; the rings seem to have seated properly, though there is some minor blowby when under heavy load, like going up a steep hill.
There were no metal flakes or pieces or other metal indications present in the oil when drained.
I noticed today, which I hadn't noticed before, that I have a '28 head with no center hole in the middle between 2 & 3 for water circulation. This might affect the overheating issue, but to the point of causing it to lock up when shut off seems unlikely.

Tomorrow I am pulling the pistons and having the rods checked for trueness and balance. That is the only thing I have not done, even from the beginning, because Bill Barlow provided those rods and assures me they were trued and balanced, and he is a reputable engine rebuilder.

So, if anything occurs to any of you much more experienced engine guys that might be the cause of this, I am ready to try anything. I have run out of my shade tree ideas. I flat don't know what else to do, and neither do any of my local engine guys.

Thanks for indulging my long post.

[JDupuis]

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.
Have you tried a different radiator? Jeff

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by JDupuis

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.
Have you tried a different radiator? Jeff

I am thinking seriously about that. The radiator was supposedly rodded out at rebuild, but there may be other issues there.

[JDupuis]

I had a great looking radiator boiled out twice this year. It is running much cooler after the second cleaning. But I had a good spare engine that received some severe overheating as a result of this rad after its first cleaning. The spare engine now needs freshing up as a result. The original engine is now back in this car using the same rad. Running much cooler.
Jeff

[Dick Steinkamp]

A few other ideas..

Mains to tight
Not enough (or no) crank end play
Valve timing off (not likely if it has been running well before over heating)
Brakes (or other part of the drive train) dragging

[joel rapose]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

When you say you checked the pistons....did you check the ring end gap ? You should have roughly .016" end gap...

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

I posted this over on the VFF, but some guys here don't read that forum, so I put this to the Barn:

This engine, with only 4000 miles on it since rebuild, has always overheated and locked up when shut down after overheating, which is usually when driven at 45 or less for 30 minutes or more. (This did not and does not happen when driven under 35 and/or just around town for less than 45 minutes). I thought I had this problem fixed. But apparently not.

Here is the history: On 3/16/14 I installed an engine which had been boiled out, sleeved back to standard, new pistons and rings from Snyder's, new valves, exhaust valve seats, new lifters, and new babbit by Bill Barlow. It was tight, but I figured it would loosen up during breakin, which I did very carefully, as I have done with all my previous engines.

After 2000 miles it was still overheating and locking up on shutdown. I took it apart to check measurements. Ring gap, rod bearings, and piston clearance were just where they should be, according tbirdtbird, Bill Barlow, Tom Godish, and several other commenters on the Barn. But when reassembled it had the same troubles.

At 3500 miles I went through the disassembly again and rechecked the clearances, just to make sure I had done it right before. I had (so I thought). So I put it back together, timed it to a gnat's eyebrow, thinking that might be the issue, drove it with the spark rod exactly where everyone agrees it should be in a stock engine. It still overheated and locked up.

Today I took it apart again, and again checked my piston clearances. I checked with my engine guru, Tom Gosish. He informed me I had been checking the piston clearance incorrectly. I had done it front and back. I was getting .004 that way. But side to side, the correct way, today I got .012 on all four pistons, except the driver's side #4, which was .016. These all seem excessive, so I don't see how too tight a fit resulting in expansion could be the situation causing the lockup.

Other notes: all spark plugs (Champion 3X) have perfect tan coloring.
There is very slight partial accumulation of carbon on the tops of 2 & 3.
This engine has always had a knock on deceleration, but after this last overheating, it is present in both acceleration and deceleration, but not a cruise speed. It's not like a rod knock; more like a loose wrist pin.
The cylinder walls show no signs of scoring or damage from the pistons. They are clean and shiny, though the crosshatching is gone.
It is not burning oil; the rings seem to have seated properly, though there is some minor blowby when under heavy load, like going up a steep hill.
There were no metal flakes or pieces or other metal indications present in the oil when drained.
I noticed today, which I hadn't noticed before, that I have a '28 head with no center hole in the middle between 2 & 3 for water circulation. This might affect the overheating issue, but to the point of causing it to lock up when shut off seems unlikely.

Tomorrow I am pulling the pistons and having the rods checked for trueness and balance. That is the only thing I have not done, even from the beginning, because Bill Barlow provided those rods and assures me they were trued and balanced, and he is a reputable engine rebuilder.

So, if anything occurs to any of you much more experienced engine guys that might be the cause of this, I am ready to try anything. I have run out of my shade tree ideas. I flat don't know what else to do, and neither do any of my local engine guys.

Thanks for indulging my long post.

Ray,

You have photos of the pistons and the bore?
Were are you measuring the piston AND the bore?
No crosshatch with 4,000 miles on it?....VERY ODD!
With what you say about the bore to piston clearance,..it's about 1/2 wore out!
I would also like some photos of the "inside" of the top of the pistons, please.

Dudley

[48fordnut]

When you say locked up is that with the battery turning it over ,or by hand?
4k miles and no cross hatch, somethings too tight.

[H. L. Chauvin]

About 60 years ago, in our rural area, I remember many vehicle owners "successfully" performing their own engine rebuilds.

After continuing to read Model A Forum messages about all of the bum Model A engine rebuilds which are forever failing over the past 20 years, I think we are experiencing an era where we have only a very, very, few Model A engine re-builders that actually "know" what they are doing.

Or do we have hundreds of "Scrooge" type Model A owners looking for cheap, cheap, cheap rebuilds from guys who are not even qualified to pump air in bicycle tires?

[WHN]

The engine seizure would be my biggest concern.

You said when you take everything apart, things look good?

How hot is the engine getting? Does it seize as soon as you shut it off?

If it runs great under 35 and does not over heat. The engine might not be the problem.

Could you drive it all day at 35 and not experience any issues. If so, I would think you have a cooling issue.

[48fordnut]

H.L. your last sentence about sums it up. It is the same way in the small acft fild.

[Big hammer]

So one else is having issues with clylinders brought back to standard. Look for his thread !
When he pulled the pistons they looked like they where tight to me! If it helps I think the same man rebuild his engine. His clylinder walls cross hatch where gone also! IMHO I think you, the man, and the rebuilder need to look very close at the liners, pistons, rings
That is on another forum ford vintage go and take a look ( engine locks up on shut down ) I thought it was the same engine problem

[2manycars]

H.L. has the answer.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Ray,

You have photos of the pistons and the bore?
Were are you measuring the piston AND the bore?
No crosshatch with 4,000 miles on it?....VERY ODD!
With what you say about the bore to piston clearance,..it's about 1/2 wore out!
I would also like some photos of the "inside" of the top of the pistons, please.

Dudley

Dudley is right, 4000 miles and no cross hatch? When we have pulled heads for high compression ones at 15 to 20 thousandth miles, all cross was very visible!

If the measuring is correct, .012 to .016 thousandths, wow, should not be over .005 at the very most!

Also I hope all the valves are setting on top of the block, and not just the Exhaust.

With all that said, you Have to have a good radiator to cool, bite the bullet, and get a new one!

Herm.

[Jacksonlll]

Your radiator is plugged. It should flow 36 GPM. I bet your's won't.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

Your radiator is plugged. It should flow 36 GPM. I bet your's won't.

How would I check that?

[RawhideKid]

Hey Ray, what year is your car?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Sad part is with so many devastating engine failures reported on Model A Forums after engine rebuilds for the past 20 years ...... sounds like most Model A owners report almost needing a twenty (20) foot long crow bar pulled by a D-9 dozer just to turn their "tight" engines over.

Ford described in his Model T manual how to adjust Babbitt bearings.

Not at all any different from our ancestors with steam engine Babbitt bearing adjustment going back 90 years back to the 1820's.

Both crankshafts and connecting rods should be felt for easy bearing movement from side to side; however, no felt bearing movement up & down.

If one feels bearing movement up & down, be prepared for hearing knocks.

If no easy bearing movement felt from side to side, Babbitt bearing is too tight.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Dudley is right, 4000 miles and no cross hatch? When we have pulled heads for high compression ones at 15 to 20 thousandth miles, all cross was very visible!

If the measuring is correct, .012 to .016 thousandths, wow, should not be over .005 at the very most!

Also I hope all the valves are setting on top of the block, and not just the Exhaust.

With all that said, you Have to have a good radiator to cool, bite the bullet, and get a new one!

Herm.

Herm,

With that kind of clearance, IF IT'S CORRECT, you should be able to run the
engine with NO WATER,..and not stick it! The water jacket is only about
2.5" to 2.75" deep of a 4.25' stroke. I think it's tight at the bottom,..best
guess without photos and information..

Were are the photos?

[700rpm]

To answer questions and suggestions by post # and name if I know it:

#5 Dick S: All bearings are factory spec. Crank end play was set by Bill Barlow, so no questions there. Timing gears are matched properly, but I will check this again next week when I pull the engine. Brakes are not too tight.

#6 Joel R: Ring gaps are all .020-.022.

#7 Dudley: See pix at the bottom of this post. The measurements I took may well bbe wrong. No crosshatch even at 1800 miles! (that photo below also).

#8 48fordnut: It will not turn over, perion, by hand or starter. It takes 30-45 minutes to cool down enough to turn.

#10 WHN: Things look good. See pix below. I didn't write down the temps when it seized, but it happens as soon as it's shut off.

#11 48fordnut: What is acft fild? Aircraft field?

#12 Big Hammer: If you are referring to the thread on the VFF, that is me.

#14 Herm: No crosshatch at 1800 miles. The valves seem to be on top. See pix below. I am unsure about those measurements. I need to get bore gauge on the cylinder. This morning the pistons measured 3.8720 at the bottom skirt; the sleeved cylinders were honed to 3.875 at rebuild 4000 miles ago. Portland Engine Rebuilders, who sleeved the block and did the honing told me this AM that it was honed for .003 clearance. I am not averse to getting a new radiator. At this point I'm trying to decide if I need to pull the engine and have it honed for greater clearance or replace the radiator. It seems that either or both may be necessary. What do you think?

#17 Rawhide: 1929

#18 Henry: Bearings are set to Ford specs, and the engine turns easily by hand when cold.