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Old 10-19-2019, 01:29 PM   #1
Chad Marchees
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Default Help! Tie rod end install

Hi All,



For my '31 front end, I bought brand new tie rod ends and internals from Snyders, I have the parts in the correct order (spring, cup, then inserted into the tie rod body). How the heck are you supposed to get this to slid over the ball of the steering arm? I think the old springs must have been weak, because I don't remember fighting with them to get them off the steering arms.


I have everything well lubed, tried a couple of blows with a rubber mallet, but those darn spring have some serious resistance to them.



Please help with suggestions.


Thank You
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:48 PM   #2
old31
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Chad, they should just slip over the ball, especially that you have lubed them.

Can you send some pics of what you are working on.
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Chad,
Fit the ball first, before you start tightening the large retaining screw on the end.
The springs were probably worn as you say, however, so are the balls. Otherwise you would not have replaced them, would you ?
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:52 PM   #4
J Franklin
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Are the springs and cups in the right way? I leave the ends off until it is over the ball.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:12 PM   #5
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Everything is brand new, including the balls. There are no worn parts because it's all new.

Click the pics to enlarge.

Below is the spring and cup next to the tie rod.

Then the spring and cup inside the tie rod---it seems like it sticks out alot...well it is sticking out alot as that is what is preventing me from getting it on.

And finally the right side arm with new ball and seal on.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tie rod 1.jpg (102.8 KB, 153 views)
File Type: jpg Tie rod 2.jpg (65.7 KB, 159 views)
File Type: jpg Tie rod 3.JPG (67.1 KB, 140 views)
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:18 PM   #6
J Franklin
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

How do the new parts compare to the old in length. Things look about right. Is there any gunk or debris in the tie end.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:30 PM   #7
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Everything looks the same, except that the spring is REALLY stiff.


I can stick a socket in the end and compress it with the bench vice and it will move back far enough to allow to slip on the ball. I just cant move it without some type of assistance.


I would hate to have to use the old weaker spring, that seems counter intuitive, and I only have one.


To answer the question asked above, I do not have the end cap installed at all.

Last edited by Chad Marchees; 10-19-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:57 PM   #8
J Franklin
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Maybe a call to Snyder's is warranted, or hit it harder with your rubber mallet. Ive always used the era Bulldog kits and the springs were pretty stiff in those kits also.
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Old 10-19-2019, 03:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

What length are the springs, approx 1" ?? Maybe too stiff? I have to use a plastic hammer to knock the rods over the balls sometimes. The springs should compress approx. 25% , so if 1 " long, approx. 1/4" on the end plugs as a gauge, tighten with the ability to rotate the rods stiffly by hand and insert the cotter.
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Old 10-19-2019, 04:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

If the new springs are the correct length, you can use a small C clamp to force the tie rod ends onto the ball on the steering arms.
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Old 10-19-2019, 05:16 PM   #11
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

OK, I have no idea WTF I am doing wrong. And I am not a novice wrench turner by any means. I took an original spring and cup, inserted it into the new tie rod body and still couldn't get it to go on. I have to be doing something blatantly wrong.


But my comparison of old and new all seem like they are both the same. Both springs are 1", cup heights the same, how far they protrude into the opening of the tie rod body at rest, are the same. Everything is the same. So what am I doing wrong. Is there a procedure I don't know of?



I cant see the possibility of the balls being to big. They seemed the same as the worn ones I cut off. Grrrr, such a simple project I thought this would be.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Are you sure there isn't something else jammed in the tie rod end? was the old tie rod original to that car?
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Chad,
First of all I do these on the bench as an assembly. I noticed your tie rod is in which is fine. It’s juat more difficult if backing plates are in the way. Again you can do the entire ateeringcarm as an assembly complete with pitman stem and install from the drivers side.

The correct order is spring , then insert with stem. I use a little grease and I see you already have the cap and rubber installed on steering arm. They typically go on with a wack from a dead blow or rubber mallet . Insert the threaded cap after it’s in the tie rod. I do these almost every week and don’t have any issues. If all is well the end plug should be about flush with the tie rod end. If you are using the steer exempt kit you will of course have the inserts.

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Old 10-19-2019, 07:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

OK after going back to the photos I'll ask if maybe the zerk fitting is interfering with the spring bottoming?
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

I had the same problem but with my drag link, those silver cups are too thick. I ended up buying the rebuild kit from Brattons, the cups aren't as thick and the fit great, popped right on with a few taps.



https://www.brattons.com/original-st...build-kit.html
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Jeff, he said he is having the same problem with the old parts.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
Jeff, he said he is having the same problem with the old parts.

Ah I didn't see that part, my mistake. I still believe those rebuild kits with the silver cups are not the correct thickness and make it difficult to install.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

There's still a cup in the bottom of your tie rod...or like stated...the zerk is hitting the spring;
Last owner could have put another cup in there to tighten things up...old farm fix.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:43 PM   #19
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Im going to pull the steering arm off and work on it that way as Larry said. I will also reclean the parts and measure them, maybe the silver cups as Jeff said are a little thicker?


Taking off the steering arms is ok, but not really the way I wanted to do the drag link either, guess i'll have to remove the pitman arm too. It just seems like that's a harder way to do this.



No, the Zerk fitting is not beyond the inside surface, I had thought that as a possibility too.



The worst part is when you paint all this stuff and you end up scratching it all trying to get it together. For $20, maybe i'll give the Bratton's kit a try too. We'll see, i'll keep you updated.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:44 PM   #20
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Burner31, all the parts are brand new...no old parts left in place. And as stated above, zerk is clear on the inside.
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:44 AM   #21
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

The ball should slip in. Too much of the hole is covered. Maybe the repo tie rod end isn't deep enough?
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Old 10-20-2019, 06:15 AM   #22
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Yeah, I had that thought too. Especially because the old cup and spring in the new housing produced the same result.

I don't know if I'll get to play with it today, But thinking I am going to take the one good original end I have and clean it real good and start measuring things with a micrometer to see.
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Old 10-20-2019, 01:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Looks to me that updraught wins the prize, maybe the grease fitting or hole not bored deep enough.
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:42 PM   #24
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

OK, I cleaned the new and old tie rod and internals and and got to measuring.


Spring height

Original .960" new 1.0"


Depth from end of tie rod to machined spring seat

Original 2.445" new 2.364"


Depth of end of tie rod to flat edge of spring cup

Original 1.193" new 1.110"


If you take into account the the .040" height loss from the original spring, the depth becomes 1.153 minus the 1.110, equals a .043" difference.....hardly should seem like that should hold me up from getting this on.


On the other hand, there is a ~.080" difference in the machined depth of the seat.


The ball opening to the end of the tie rod is the same on both....but I believe the original is worn slightly. both spring cups measure out the same as well.




So what am I doing wrong? Do you just place it on top of the ball and smack it on with a rubber mallet or dead blow?, because I did that. Do you have to angle it a certain way to get it to go on easier? I mean it seams pretty ridiculous I am having such an issue with this.
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File Type: jpg Tie rod 4.JPG (92.9 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg Tie rod 5.jpg (62.6 KB, 47 views)
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Old 10-20-2019, 08:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Even tho it doesn't look much, my guess is that the old one will go on and the new one won't. The reason being, that with the new one you are pushing against the flat horizontal part of the ball. The cup edge needs to be pressing on the vertical part of the ball to force the cup back against the spring for the ball to go in.

The backing plates are probably in the way, but if you can take out the screw plug and insert a brass drift or something and hit it while pushing the ball in, it might do it. A lot of people now use the nylon type cups that might be easier too.
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Old 10-21-2019, 08:38 AM   #26
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Please correct me if I am wrong. Is there a small concave groove on the cups that should be facing the opening so the ball can slide in ? Maybe the repro parts don't have that feature. Please see updraught's post # 21
PS: I have the same setup on my 59 Corvette.

Last edited by jimvette59; 10-21-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:21 AM   #27
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Chad,
You said you replaced the balls on the steering arms. The originals were 1 inch in diameter. What size are the new balls?
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Old 10-21-2019, 04:44 PM   #28
Chad Marchees
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Hello all. To answer a few above questions.


The new balls are sized at .990" as measured with digital calipers. They might be 1" if I broke out the micrometer...but I didn't.


Yes, the ball seat is concaved, as is the plug to accept the ball.


Updraught, there are no backing plates on, or even drums, just a bare spindle and hub.


I tried various angles on the tie rod end to get it on while hitting it with a deadblow hammer. No go. Its as if the cup is being pushed out to far by the spring.


Even though I have said several times the grease fitting was not interfering, I removed it to appease the masses trying to help. The spring has been verified as sitting on the machined surface.


I have talked to Snyders, and they have never heard of the issue but are trying to also work with me on it---I can't ask for anymore than that. Even though I am not totally ruling out the repo parts, I do believe the slight variations in measurements from originals are stacking up, unfortunately against me.



Larry posted and was kind enough to have a phone conversation last night with me and we measured various points together. I am defiantly tight on a few areas with the new parts.


Also as suggested by someone else, I did order the internals from Bratton's to see if there is a difference.



I'll get it figured out sooner or later....even though the solution may not be what I really want. Finding good original ends that don't cost an arm and a leg don't seem to be that easy...unless someone has a set and wants to help.
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Old 10-21-2019, 07:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

Maybe it is just my old eyes but the hole in the bottom tie rod end in post 24 seems to be larger than the upper one...???


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Old 10-21-2019, 07:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Marchees View Post
Hello all. To answer a few above questions.


The new balls are sized at .990" as measured with digital calipers. They might be 1" if I broke out the micrometer...but I didn't.


Yes, the ball seat is concaved, as is the plug to accept the ball.


Updraught, there are no backing plates on, or even drums, just a bare spindle and hub.


I tried various angles on the tie rod end to get it on while hitting it with a deadblow hammer. No go. Its as if the cup is being pushed out to far by the spring.


Even though I have said several times the grease fitting was not interfering, I removed it to appease the masses trying to help. The spring has been verified as sitting on the machined surface.


I have talked to Snyders, and they have never heard of the issue but are trying to also work with me on it---I can't ask for anymore than that. Even though I am not totally ruling out the repo parts, I do believe the slight variations in measurements from originals are stacking up, unfortunately against me.



Larry posted and was kind enough to have a phone conversation last night with me and we measured various points together. I am defiantly tight on a few areas with the new parts.


Also as suggested by someone else, I did order the internals from Bratton's to see if there is a difference.



I'll get it figured out sooner or later....even though the solution may not be what I really want. Finding good original ends that don't cost an arm and a leg don't seem to be that easy...unless someone has a set and wants to help.
Have you tried Bert's for originals (no internals)?
You will have to clean them up but they may have some ready to go.
Note - Grease fitting location(front/rear)varies by year but no functional difference.

Last edited by dmaxweb; 10-22-2019 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

My eyes were seeing the same thing a Terry O. Have you tried to slip the new tie rod ends over the spindle balls without the spring and cup installed to be sure the hold is large enough? Just an easy thing tocheck.
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Old 10-22-2019, 05:15 AM   #32
Chad Marchees
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Yes I have. It fits fine.
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Old 10-26-2019, 06:23 PM   #33
Chad Marchees
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Problem solved. Don and Joe at Snyder's took the time to look at my pics and talk to me about it. They sent me two new tie rod ends. My original shipment of ends were made / machined wrong in a couple areas that was really evident once I had them to compare in hand.


I assembled them tonight, gave a quick light hit with a dead blow hammer and they snapped right into place. So happy I was able to get this worked out, and kudo's to Snyder's for helping me even though over a year passed since I bought them originally.



Thank You for all that helped and responded, special thanks to Larry who also went out of his way to call me personally. I was starting to think I was going nuts trying to get these other ones to work. Life is good again.

Last edited by Chad Marchees; 10-29-2019 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 10-26-2019, 07:00 PM   #34
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Wow, that is great news. Great customer service and caring shown by Snyders.
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:13 PM   #35
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Great ending - thanks for sharing.
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:00 AM   #36
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

This is nothing againt any of the other vendors because I don't have much experience with them BUT,,, Snyders is a model business for any business.

Chad in case you haven't put everything back together, it would be a great time to do the pitman arm shortening. I haven't done this but have read it greatly improves the turning of the steering wheel, makes it easier to turn.
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Old 10-27-2019, 12:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: Help! Tie rod end install

The short pitman arm didn't seem worth it to me, I couldn't tell any difference except a bigger turning radius.
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Old 10-27-2019, 01:10 PM   #38
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Glad you responded. You may have saved me the effort.

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The short pitman arm didn't seem worth it to me, I couldn't tell any difference except a bigger turning radius.
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