oh No--no oil

[harryc]

Today I went out to put a new valve cover on my car. The old one has a slight crack. Well the interior of the valve chamber is as dry as a bone. What do you think? Has the drive somehow twisted off the top of the pump or the bottom of the drive where they connect? Has the drive gear stripped where it drives off the cam? ... or has the pump just decided to stop pumping? I have always felt the pump was pretty bullet proof. Any thoughts?

[Marshall V. Daut]

Remove the slotted plug in the engine's right side just above the oil pan junction and crank the starter. If oil doesn't squirt out in a strong stream, the pump or drive gear is bad. Have you checked the oil level with the dip stick?
Marshall

[Bob C]

Are you sure the oil hasn't just drained out through the main bearings.

Bob

[harryc]

Yes I checked the plug -first thing--no oil. The oil level is fine. It's just hard to believe that much could go wrong with either the drive or the pump--they are so simple. I guess I will start with the drive before I pull the pan. Maybe I will get lucky

[harryc]

I just pulled the drive--it must be the pump!! I'll find out tomorrow.

[Joe K]

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I have used a wooden dowel with the end made to fit the slot on the water pump drive shaft.

Removing the distributor and the gear carrier allows one to insert this from the top of the motor and turn the oil pump. Using an electric drill turns the pump FAST. Like put oil all over the floor under your car fast if the valve chamber cover is off.

Go slowly at first.

Joe K

[harryc]

Back to work at 4am--pulled the pan --checked the pump----just like I feared----IT'S FINE-----oh no!! what now ! I have checked and triple checked everything ---question do the slots in the drive line up with the slots in the pump?---could this possibly have rotated----more ideas welcomed--the pan is on it's way backup--no question about the pump---I don't think?

[harryc]

Joe--where were you at 4am--before I pulled the pump---GREAT idea

[Gunmetal blue2]

Were the two shafts fit togeghter maybe that has broken off. Check timing gear make sure you are not missing some teeth, goood luckkkkk

[Benson]

Filter screen in oil pump plugged?

Pins broken on shaft collars and/or oil pump drive gear?

[Dick Steinkamp]

Have you ever had this car running? If so, was it running recently?

[harryc]

my first thought after I pulled the drive and found it ok was that the end of the pump may have broken--I have had that before but the pump is like new . The car has been a running car for many years but not a lot this past year. I can't remember when I last had the pan off--maybe 6 or more years maybe

[PC/SR]

I had the same panic attack some years ago with a "dry" valve chamber. Put the cover back on, removed the cam gear side cover, fired it up, and plenty of oil came out the front of the chamber. The chamber will drain dry after 3-4 hours.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Just leave the timing pin out and if the oil is being pumped into the valve area, it will soon spit some out the timing pin hole. I found this out years ago when I forgot to reinstall the pin after setting the timing.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Harry,

FWIW from many mechanical past experiences:

1. First, lots of good suggestions above.

2. Remember, "Out-Of-The-Box" thinking & testing is rare today.

3. Your problem appears to be rather twofold when thinking Out-Of-The-Box; either:

A. Your valve chamber is not holding oil & will never hold oil; or,

B. Your total oil pump "mechanism" is not providing oil in your valve chamber.

4. Out of the box thinking for A. above would be to check to see what happens if you provide fresh oil in your valve chamber .... possibility your valve chamber has unclogged drain holes, and maybe some additional drilled holes by a former typical Model A owner who tells everybody he invented non-detergent oil, whitewall tires and cell phones ...... lots of modern Model A owners like this today trying to greatly improve Model A mechanical function.

5. You say you checked your oil pump; however, how detailed did you check the pump?

6. Out of the box thinking for B. above would be:

A. First remove pump and take pump apart to insure no unknown interior debris is causing "intermittent" oil pump functioning. (Trust absolutely "nothing" with former modern Model A owners who may have added cotton balls or cotton cloth to better filter oil at the oil screen which got sucked into the pump gears).

B. Place pump vertically in large plastic pan filled with 2" deep diesel. (Large pan used solely for catching diesel flow exiting at sides mentioned below.)

C. With one finger and thumb, rapidly rotate the top of the slotted oil pump shaft with your longest finger and thumb, similar to snapping your finger.

D. If diesel shoots out vigorously at the top side holes on both sides of your pump, your pump is OK.

E. If NO diesel shoots out of both sides of pump, your pump requires further investigation.

7. Please let us know what you experienced after these two (2) tests ..... all of our goals are to get your Model A going again.

(Final Reminder: Not much of a different problem as to why there is no pee in the bucket; either the bucket has a hole in it, or somebody quit peeing!)

[Joe K]

Out of the box - do you have a MOdel B motor?

Model B has a separate oil gallery which runs in the area of the block just below the valve chamber. Its been a while since I looked but I think there are slotted plugs "In?" the chamber for cleaning/access?

If yours a Model B then you have a fuel pump boss/blanked off below your valve chamber cover.

Joe K

[harryc]

Yes I tried spinning the pump by hand ----works great . I have changed drives and double checked the drives to make sure they were engaging the pump. Everything checks out------separately--- but when it goes back together --nothing. It is a B motor--I didn't mention that but that shouldn't make a difference that I can think of. I have rebuilt many Bs in the past. the separate oil galley bellow the chamber was dry. It must be the pump but I can't figure out why.------it is definitely an out of the box problem

[harryc]

As I was re reading the suggestions I noticed it mentioned oil shooting out both sides of the pump. As I think back I only remember oil shooting out of one side---it could have been both but I didn't really look for that. Is it possible it could only be shooting out of one side ? Is that possible. Would that make a difference (only coming out of one side) Maybe it's been modified somehow---could that possibly be the problem?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by harryc

Yes I tried spinning the pump by hand ----works great . I have changed drives and double checked the drives to make sure they were engaging the pump. Everything checks out------separately--- but when it goes back together --nothing. It is a B motor--I didn't mention that but that shouldn't make a difference that I can think of. I have rebuilt many Bs in the past. the separate oil galley bellow the chamber was dry. It must be the pump but I can't figure out why.------it is definitely an out of the box problem

Hey Harry,
I'm also a B block guy !

I've read your input.
IF your pump is working as designed, the pumped oil must fill the main feeds and galley as intended. You say that this is not happening, i.e.- valve galley is dry. Is it dry or does it remain dry after running ?
If so, I'd look for plugged oil passages first. Now that you've stated that you have verified that pump is working and that its drive (dist/cam gears) is working...maybe last thing to check is for plugged oil passages (with air pressure).
I'm sure that you are aware of location of such passages. If your B is stock, there are NO plugs , by Ford, to block such passages. Guys will use plugs and other mods to restrict oil flow in a B , to decrease oil flow to certain areas and to increase pressure/flow to other areas.

You don't say how clean engine block is, but in any case, a piece of metal/loose sillycone or gasket could be blocking oil flow....expecially if restrictor plugs or other mods (full pressure) have been made.

Is this B full oil filtered or modified oil system ?

Now that you have oil pan off, I would definitely take down the oil pump also ! You say that you know that pump is working, but no explanation why oil is not being distributed. If pump has foreign material obstruction...you can check that now. All the hard work to get to pump is done. Why not drop pump and rest assured that it does not have some existing anomaly ?

[40 Deluxe]

So has it been run without oil? If so, for how long? Was there oil in the dipper tray when you pulled the pan? If not, you could have burned a bearing.
Adapt the hose of a pump-up garden sprayer to the fitting on the side of the block, add a few quarts of oil to the sprayer, pump it up and see where the oil goes.