Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

[peters180a/170b]

Will be there on Aug. 7 ,Saturday with 180A. Recieved my score from French Lick. I need people to look see where the issue is #1 ,I'll take it up with Bill Sturm[ upholstery shop]on TOP and TOP BOOT. Here is one of the top guy's for years on upholstery [along with Marco]on Model "A"s. "BEST TOP" he said on a DELUXE PHAETON he has ever done.. SO lost 2- 1/2 points on top and top boot[ IP= INCORRECT PART/MATERIAL on both]. Boy for years he was the best[ and had alot to do with Judging standard ] I'll take it up with him. 4 points on my [rear fenders/fasteners] and [running boards /trim] where i need the help is. N.O.S. REAR fenders and brackets with orginial hardware,MINT restored running boards but with the "BEST " REPRO RUNNING BOARD ZINC trim and rubber mat. Said lost points on repro parts. 4 POINTS WoW seemed to pass MAFCA on other cars in FINE POINT JUDGING? I had 4 judges both long time judging on all area's for MARC.MAFCA [2 for over 1 hour on the car] days before my car being judged. the lowest score by them 485. One of the judges almost fell off his seat after hearing my score at award dinner Can not be as he jumped up out of his seat. 2 came right upto me in question [what happend] So need help for a looks see .and comments .thank you no i am not pissed off its principal now. I feel i left alot of people down who worked with me over the 7 years and many calls at nite to MARCO and i bet i made the most visits to his website.

[1931 flamingo]

Could it have just been the "judges".. Not sure how "political" judging of model A's is but I do remember when we used to show our Dalmation judging WAS very political.
Paul in CT

[peters180a/170b]

Goodyear tires are the BEST REPRO'S but never get docked , Top Material is the "BEST" reproduced and never gets docked and with that MOST interior is the "BEST" reproduced and never gets docked. I had a offer of using orginial mint hoses for my car but did not do so.ALL parts on my car belongs to my car and "NO" one else.! A judge on a phone call said last year they are starting to allow the "BEST" repro. hoses but make sure the length of them are correct. That where they get you on lost points! So i went with the "BEST''repro hoses and made sure they were the correct length. % was taken off. The letters showed up as [RP]. I spent time making sure "ALL" clamps match up with all correct hardware and the slots of the screw heads were perfect. This score sheet reminds me of a National meet where a judge told me he took points off because the Model "A" was not perfect from FORD[ "WHAT"] Ok my car is not by all means perfect but what kind of thinking is that? Nick picking on most of the other 19 Area's. all small % were taken off but add up at the end of the day. And who calls at what % will be taken off .Nothing in writing its totally a judges call. Could be 8% out of 10% could be 5% out of 10% . I painted the horn parts all at one time and yet a % was taken off for mis match color on horn motor flange? What? hello the cars were in a building with what kind of lights. ALL the same paint out of the same can and sprayed at the same time.This is nick picken.Vince were you there and viewed the cars?? If not then you should have nothing to say if you seen the 68C. Nice car but 1 person call it the way it fell that nite and all others did not even put that car in the hunt for the Henry. i will call Bill Sturm today and find out how he likes someone took off % saying he used the incorrect trim/edge binding and incorrect part/material on my top boot.I thought Bill over the past 40 years wrote the book on this area??? I am sorry he is still working on what would be the final book. I hope you all take this as fun and braking balls... i just don't like nick picking where you look for something. Thats why i don't judge MARC/MAFCA .I start looking overall on the whole car and the work and time that went into it and tend not to nick and pick.

[henry494]

Pete, Repro parts are usually deducted 50%, that includes "the best repro" parts such as hoses, clamps, fan belts, wiring, valve stem covers, etc, etc. Goodyear and Firestone tires do get docked when the owners do not perform the upgrades to match the Standards. The RP notation for your radiator hoses was appropriate. I don't know who told you that "the best repro" parts are being accepted, he/she was mistaken. You are correct when you state that it is a "judges call" as to how much percentage or how many points are deducted. That's part of the definition of a judge. We can't spell out appropriate point deductions in the Standards as there are just far too many possibilities to do so.

You mention the 68C that was in Blue Ribbon, and idicate that someone said it "wasn't in the hunt for the Henry." Sure it was, the same as yours and most all of the others. (See Brent's posts for more on cars his shop built) That black 68C earned deductions for many items too. However, I know it had original hoses, fan belt, wiring, and valve stem covers. You mention how the pecentage of deductions add up at the end of the day. You bet they do! Those few items I noted really add up, and those are the few I am aware of. Probably most or all of the seven or eight points your two cars were apart from each other.

Now I didn't judge all those areas and didn't get the time to look at all those areas on your car, including Sturm's work. Regarding top material, I too have had deductions for material because modern replacements are not exactly like the original. Just part of the game. I know how you have fun and "bust balls," but I also hear whining in your post. I hope I'm off a bit on that and you're having more fun than it actually sounds like. Your car is absolutely beautiful, but it received deductions because it was not completely in alignment with the Standards. You chose to deviate based on your pesonal tastes (Chassis finish for one). I wish I could take a day with you and your car, with the Standards in hand, and review all 23 areas. Opposite coasts prevent that for now.

The judging process is not perfect, but after reviews of several judging sheets from French Lick, it appeared to be quite accurate. I know of a fairly major reduction for reproduction parts that was NOT given to your car as well, so the shoe drops both directions. Sure, there were a few errors as always, but I didn't see anything glaring. I don't believe the judging is "political" as others have hinted in other posts. I've judged at least 19 or 20 nationals and am only aware of a couple instances of biased judging by one individual, and that was addressed by the club so it wouldn't happen again.

Model A judging in Blue Ribbon at the national meets does constitue "nit picking" as you indicated. No argument there. But there's a perfectly good reason. The cars in Blue Ribbon are the best of the best in restored Model A's, and, with our incredibly detailed Judging Standards (compared to many clubs and marques) the process can't be anything but nit picking.

I'm not wanting to start any argument with you Pete, or anyone else. But, when reviewing the judging sheets, I think a person has to take a few steps back and open their minds. Open up to the fact that we are biased to our own cars because of all the blood, sweat, and tears we invest (+ !!$$Bucks$$!!) and be honest with ourselves about those areas we fell short in, or where we chose to do something different.

[henry494]

I intended to put my name on that response to Pete above, as I don't care to be anonymous behind my registered name.

Dave Lopes

[forever4]

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Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

...Vince were you there and viewed the cars?? If not then you should have nothing to say if you seen the 68C. Nice car but 1 person call it the way it fell that nite and all others did not even put that car in the hunt for the Henry.

...i just don't like nick picking where you look for something. Thats why i don't judge MARC/MAFCA...

Pete,
Then why do you submit your car for judging at MARC, and why are you complaining here?

And who are you to say that I should have nothing to say???

And who are you to say that Gary's car was not in the hunt for a Henry, while complaining about the score/judging and award your car achieved?

I am familiar enough with Gary's 68C, as well as his earlier 68B restoration which also achieved a Henry around 1992.
As a matter of fact, I saw the 68C a few days before judging.

I have never seen your car, but I have no doubt it is an exceptional car.
I just don't understand why you are on fordbarn whining about the score you received, or talking down other people's car, or casting dispersions about the judging.
Register your complaints with the Chief Judge and MARC BOD if you feel slighted.

Point Judging is to an objective Standard.
Judging is performed by imperfect humans.

The awarding of a Henry is the only place where cars are effectively competing against each other, rather than to the standard.

The second best car of the meet will not get a Henry if it is 10 or more points from the top car.
However, if five cars are all within 10 points of the top car, they all get a Henry.

The ability to achieve a Henry is totally dependent on the relative point performance of your car against that of the top car on the field that day.
Take your car to the next national meet, with different competing cars, different judging results, and different point spread, guess what? Different Henrys will be awarded.

You may not have gotten the points you think you deserved at that meet on that day with those judges, but you did get the Henry.
Complain away.

Vince

[RockHillWill]

Pete:

It is my opinion that you are an astute and knowledgeable Model A owner and restorer. I looked at your car both before and during judging and was impressed by the job you did on the restoration. Our personal conversations also left me with the impression that you are knowledgeable, pay attention to details, and certainly are willing to do what ever it takes to complete such a difficult undertaking. I was surprised to learn that you do not participate in the judging. I'm quite certain, you would have a more tempered view once you actually view firsthand the amount of discussion, comparison and effort is put into each decision. It is a group discussion overseen by a group or area leader. No one person makes the entire decision as to how many points are awarded in each area. It seems a shame that you do not lend your expertice and first hand knowledge to the judging side of this hobby. Your input would be most valuable and would certainly contribute to making others feel more relaxed about not only interring fine point judging, but reviewing their scores as well. You did a great job. Many folks never do get a Henry. You should be congratulated on a job well done!

[Mitch//pa]

hi pete,
i will be stopping in at macungie but will not be taking my car. i look foward to seeing your beautiful car and meeting you in person.

[peters180a/170b]

Don't worry i still love you guy's [answer's to follow]. lining up the troops.l.o.l.

[henry494]

Pete, Please ad Will's response, word for word, to my response. In addition to what I wrote, I should have included verbiage like that as I was certainly thinking it!

Dave Lopes

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

I was surprised to learn that you do not participate in the judging. I'm quite certain, you would have a more tempered view once you actually view firsthand the amount of discussion, comparison and effort is put into each decision. .... It seems a shame that you do not lend your expertice and first hand knowledge to the judging side of this hobby. Your input would be most valuable and would certainly contribute to making others feel more relaxed about not only interring fine point judging, but reviewing their scores as well. You did a great job. Many folks never do get a Henry. You should be congratulated on a job well done

How could he be a good judge when he disagrees with the scores he received. If he saw the same things on another car that he has done on his own he would give full points.

For reasons like I have read here on this thread I find it hard to think of showing a fine point car. You paint all the parts at the same time and the judge says they are different, you use NOS parts and the judges say they are repro.

I'm going to have to look in my book to see where it says that repro parts are given 1/2 off automatically. I always thought that it it looks exactly the same as the original it would be judged as such.

Inmagine all the money one can save it they just choose any repo part and no the best repro part? It seems that the points would be the same.

Over the years are there more or less cars at each national show for fine point judging?

[RockHillWill]

Some folks work well with others and are dedicated to their 'activity'. Others sit alone and judge the other folks work. For example: A Pro football player has worked out, controlled his diet, studied plays and practiced with others during the entire week to put his talent on display IN PUBLIC for the world to see on Sunday. On the other hand there are those folks who haver never broken out a sweat all week and can sit alone in their underwear IN PRIVATE on Monday and discuss the failures of the quarterback. It is simply a matter of deciding which day of the week you want to work!

[peters180a/170b]

Will ,you of all people very well knows about restoring a Model "A" for fine point judging after your wide bed pickup. And you still go back for more with your new project on another type of truck[and no question in my mine it will be anything less then super].A answer to Gary K. on the issue [How would this be Judged in Blue Ribbon Judging] . Its a flip of the coin and what club shows up to judge.It seems you restore a car for MARC judging and hope MARC judges show up. Or restore a car and hope MAFCA judges will not show up at a MARC meet.[have their own rules l.o.l.].Case in point ,Bill Sturm spent most of his life [since 1971] on "SUPER" workmanship, finding as close as one can find on[MATERIAL] to be used and accepted by many and in most cases cost to him.As Marco said to me :You take 100 open Model "A"s in a row at Hershey and have 1 top/upholstery done by Bill and it will not take you long to pick out his work. You must have Bill do the work on your car. And So i did. I still have a problem with the horn finish not matching. Not a big deal but the % adds up as i said at the end of the day. Did i put a extra hit of paint on that one part? Same can of paint ,out of the same spray gun ,dried in the same place???[nick picken] Also [Light serrations] on my front fenders?[no bodywork done to them just not deep enough].LOOK at the whole fender and see the work that went into them]nick picken] Does any of these judges know how these fender were made and fast produced.? How cheap the paint was used and thin coat.Is that what we are to use and do[cheap crap] ? Anyone come across fenders at the edge that the metal is very thin?Ever see fenders when you know FORD should of started with another Die and stamp out better fenders.Same as hubcaps? How many did FORD stamp out with the dies. This car was mass produced on a fast line in how many minutes?Ask the REAL guys who restore stainless steel for 35+years..John Young and Doug Bruce will tell you about hub caps and how far FORD streched the use of his dies[looking for a matching set ,good luck my friends]. Doug was forced to restore Radiator S/S shells based on Judges and what they look for ! In his words and restoring at least 100 shells over the many years are: EVERY Restored SHELL is OVER RESTORED and points should be taken off. Shells were not perfect on the sides [THEY WERE WAVY] When ever you punch out holes for conduit [horn/headlights wires] your going to move that metal.So Gary K. its a flip of the coin .Some judges know about the drips and drabs and others look at if you had the spray gun to long in one spot. 1 person told me when a judge does a better job on restoring a car then you ,then he knows what he is talking about. . .Question where are all the past Henry winner ?? You will find most of them going thru A.A.C.A. ? why?? I can tell you why but i'll save that for another day. Time to retirer some of these dinosaur's and have a PRESERVATION class of their own. It seems too that the more judging standards come out the harder it get to 490+ why? Someone or ones are protecting the lead.? Special club? Think about it the same fan belt moves from one car to another [a loaner] just to hang in place for judging,When was the last time you seen a N.O.S. wire harness forsale ,[i almost lost my roadster because of the old stuff]a set of useable orginial hoses , orginial zinc trim for running board[30] correct Material for tops and add them all up and guess what [you are not part of that 490 point club or close ] and no cars will ever be unless you are old enought and put these parts away a long time ago and now starting to restore you car.Something must give on certain parts, or you will never see 490 unless the cars making their second trip around. your's truely ball buster... bring on the brats. inside joke

[29RPU]

Hey Pete,

I'm jumping into a thread that I have no intelligent reason to do so. I haven't ever or will I ever create a points car. Just my thoughts here.

I for one don't think you are whining, you just sound very dissappointed. So should you be when you put all the time, money and effort to making a car as perfect as it can be, and it gets deductions on things that, some of the best in the business, consider perfect. It is only my humble opinion, but I think you should take a deep breath, accept it and move on. Consider it a hurdle and be tempted NOT to change things...maybe the top (again I have no expertise in the suggestion). Show it again and see how it is judged. IF it is true, that there are descrepencies in judging, then you may have a better day in the future without changing a thing.

I think it was mentioned that you received a Henry. Congrats, and enjoy it. Strive to be the best, but enjoy the 'perfect', beautiful car you have created and take pride in your work, not in the judging standards of others.

Tom

[Blessyouboys]

What is a 'nick picker'?

[peters180a/170b]

Tom Thanks , think you are toooooo young to see whats been going on for years now between the 2 Model "A' clubs[i for one always against status Quo]. They have a hard time getting together on the standards. I am not by all means knocking their work ,I have no time as some of them do and or they make the time to do so also. I am lucky to be at the French Lick with my car. That Monday nite before i had to leave on Friday i was replacing a leaky head gasket. Year after year its the same story 1 club has different views then the other on the same car. Look at the fan belt someone brought up to me.[did i have a orginial?] No, but it did pass as a orginial back in the 90's by the top people.There should be a sign on the 2 or 3 orginial fan belts that are HUNG in place before judging [NOW SERVING 00000] like Mc DONALDS.Give it a break already allow good repro's and put the orginial's under a glass show case.Same with the hoses,wire harness .What are we stopping here? [people advance to a higher score. They allow Aries mufflers [which they should] GoodYear tire too. Now i am told the standards are going after correct finish of BLACK. I hope in the standards they have the formula for the correct blacks. Whats stopping you for restoring a Fine point car. ??? Same as alot of others. Why is touring class growing and Fine point cars less and less with every year???. I would like to know how the calls for black paint are going to be made from right or wrong .Is there going to be a guide chart? And based on what??I don't have a dog in the hunt anymore so i can now speak my peace.If people want to listen and agree that fine and disagree thats fine too. I am not out here to make friends. {"Its still a free country"] i think? and thats in question too.And another thing the ACME covers are almost balls on. You would need both orginial and repro side by side. I spent a summer tracking down 2 orginial dust covers and even at that Gary J, and Doc K were not sure of what they had.I put the 2 together and they were a perfect match and so i had a run of them made with NO ONE ELSE stepped upto the plate and tried.Dave you looked 25 years for the dust covers and now this stops you from using them [Please give me a break].I sold them in the open and not behind closed doors. I made some people very happy as many said they are perfect and THANK YOU!. NOT well knowing they are repro we can take points off. Thats B.S. how many people can in the world tell the difference. ? time to go for a drive in my "A" . Now you know why the 170b will not be restored for fine point judging. .

[RockHillWill]

Your'e still my friend. Long live the Brats.

[henry494]

Pete, I don't know how many are following this thread, or how many really care. But, since your comments continue to expand, I feel the need to respond to a couple points you made.

I will start again by stating to everyone that your 180A is beautiful. Period. It is also over-restored in many areas, which I'm sure you will see in your judging sheets. You can't finish chassis parts in glassy-smooth gloss and not expect deductions. Again, you chose to do it this way to suit your personal taste, and it looks great, but that's not what is looked for injudging. Deductions are appropriate.

Repor parts, hoses, fan belts, valve stem covers, etc, if they are detected as repro, they are deducted for. It would be so totally unfair to a restorer for you to receive full credit for your Acme covers when someone searched for years and found originals, wouldn't it? And, your Acmes covers are NOT "balls-on" as you indicate. They are VERY close, but they sure didn't fool me. Really, you think full credit is appropriate for repro parts? Same example as Al&L's 30-31 covers. Very close to original, but not exact, therefore deductions are made with the notation on the score sheets as "RP." And yeah, I probably will use Bridgeports insterad of Acme's on our next car so that nobody thinks I used your excellent repops.

Same with your "best repro" radiator hoses. Many other cars on the floor at French Lick had all original hoses, so why should you receive full credit for A&L hoses? Not all of those original fan belts are passed from car to car. I know many people that own their own fan belts and use them for shows only. I won't loan my fan belts as they took me many years of searching to find and cost too much to take chances with.

You ask when was the last time anyone saw an original wire harness for sale. Last one I saw was on e-bay the week before French Lick. I have one ready in the drawer for our next restoration. You just have to be looking and searching all the time. The parts are out there. I can't count how many times friends have called to tell me about their latest find, and if I had my eyes open at the right moment, in the right place, I could have been the one bragging! That's just part of the game. (I always TRY to congratulate my buddies on their finds, too. It might be me next week)

I'm writing to counter some of your remarks, but I'm primarily writing this so that others do not get discouraged in their quest for the completion of their own high point cars. People need to understand that going for high points is a many faceted game, and is very doable if they are persistent and have a lot of patience. Your comments are painting an inaccurate picture of the Blue Ribbon building and judging process.

Wil C. made a number of correct observations about your comments and your lack of participation in the judging process. I'm doing my best to not be negative, but comments such as yours, in consideration of the fact that you do not participate in the Model A national meet judging process, give folks with less knowledge and experience a bad taste about the whole thing. While I know you love to "bust balls" and have fun joking around, it is time to take a dip in the pool of reality.

It's a beautiful car Pete, you earned a Henry by coming within 10 points of the high point car in contention at the meet. Enjoy the rewards you earned and leave the negativity by the side of the road. There will still be a brat on the grill for you no matter what you write.

[Ron in Quincy]

To Henry 494,

Well said and to the point; I'm proud of you !!!!!

Ron

[glenn in camino]

I've been restoring, touring and showing my Model As for 40 years. I've continued to update them to make them more in line with the judging standards and more dependable for touring. I feel that Model A judging is very fair and the best in the old car hobby. You've probably all heard that there's no crying in baseball. It should be the same for Model A judging. I'm bringing two cars to Vancouver. One for blue ribbon and one for the touring class. I don't expect to win big but I'll be satisfied with whatever I get and will learn what details to change for next time. I also feel that everyone who shows a car should be required to be a judge.

Don't forget, this is supposed to be fun.