Starter Testing

[waynes]

I have a question unrelated to any of my early Ford cars and it pertains to a no-start situation with my 05 Escape. During a torrential downpour the car stalled when I engaged the clutch while at an intersection. Tried to start and nothing, no solenoid click or anything, dead silence. Long story short, I had it towed to AAA service center. They said it was starter and wanted $600 to replace. I declined, paid the diagnostic fee and was able to bump start it to drive home. Still would not start with ignition key but eventually did get a click in solenoid. Rimoved sarter (a real pain to do) and bench tested it, it spun without any hesitation. Went back to AAA and told them starter was good and asked for refund of the fee I paid. Manager refused and said even though it tested fine it would not have enough torque to turn engine over. I explained that it was not engaging at all before I removed it so how could he claim that. Stood his ground so I left. Anybody agree with what he is claiming? The starter never showed any sign that it was getting tired before this incident. Sorry for being so lengthy and off-topic.

[V12Bill]

Friend took his 03 Dodge PU to a dealer for an occasional no start situation. Dealers wrench started to tighten all electrial connections and broke the stud off the starter. Cost $300 for a new starter and problem persists. What passes for a mechanic today, couldn't work on my bicycle.

[koates]

Hi there, I am not familiar with that vehicle but it may have a starter relay which switches the starter solenoid which could be faulty. If it is an auto trans then it will have a neutral/park switch in the starting circuit as well. Plugs or connections in the wiring loom can give trouble also. Follow the cranking position wire from the key start position with a test light to find where the power is not getting through. Obtain a wiring circuit diagram and follow the start wire along on it. Regards, Kevin.

[koates]

Further to the above I see it is a manual trans when I re read your post. Always a good idea to clean battery terminals which can cause problems only on cranking. I would however pull the starter motor down for a check over. Brushes could be worn out or dirty. Solenoid contacts could be burnt or worn. So it is possible that the starter will spin on the bench and not on the car. What miles has car done ? Regards, Kevin.

[SofaKing]

The AAA manger full of it, you used the same starter to crank the engine for the trip immediately prior to stalling it. The typical failure modes for a starter do not include sudden total failure with zero warning.

If the battery terminals are clean and tight, check the connectors for the interlock switches. What I mean is for the brake interlock switch, the clutch, I assume the clutch must be depressed to crank engine. You mentioned torrential down-pour so I am wondering if water got into a switch or connector, knocked a wire loose etc.

You may also want to look at Ford Escape specific forums as they would have more accurate info.

[Lawson Cox]

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I disagree with SofaKing on his statement 'The AAA manger full of it, you used the same starter to crank the engine for the trip immediately prior to stalling it. The typical failure modes for a starter do not include sudden total failure with zero warning."

Batteries now a days give you no warning they are going bad. Same for a starter. I just went through that myself. The old adage that anything mechanical can go bad at any time still holds true.

[Fordestes]

Put the starter back on and raise drive wheels off ground and block and park brake on securely, then make sure trans is in neutral and short starter as you did on a bench test, there you have it, will or won't work under load if the solenoid is the on starter type the solenoid with a hot battery and good connection should at least engage starter gear to flywheel but may not motor, if all is well check the primary control circuit such as mentioned above, safety switches, key lock to electrical start position wear , start relays etc. I found a worn out ignition the other day I traced everything out , the vehicle had a double relay for the starting system in the power box under the hood, all was well except the ign. lock was worn to where it wouldn't turn to the start position all accessories worked ok it would not engage the starter, but the starter would work by bypassing the start circuit at the starter, if problem persists do a voltage drop test ,use a test light from the battery to starter pos.have an assistant turn the key to start position if the light comes on ,you have a bad connection from the starter to the battery pos., do the same on ground side from batt. neg. to ground point on engine if light comes on you have a bad ground connection .

[waynes]

UPDATE
Reinstalled starter, cleaned all terminals including ground, buttoned everything up and guess what, turned key to start and cranked over like a champ!! AAA manager was a first class Ahole and I'd like to confront him again but know he will say "Well, we would have found the real problem and fixed it instead of installing a new starter", which is pure BS, they would have gone ahead and done the installation. The behavior of this locartion is probably the corporate policy so it makes you wonder how many people get screwed on a daily basis. I'm a 72 year old Vietnam Vet and they still had no prolem treating me like anothr sucker.
Thanks for all of your replies, I appreciate all of your input. I will try the 800 complaint number and see if I get anywhere with them, doubt it though.
Wayne

[tmiller6]

I don't think anyone has mentioned there is a switch on the clutch pedal which is part of the starter solenoid circuit. That switch is closed when the clutch pedal is depressed.

[Gary]

Ask to speak to customer service to file a complaint, they will refund your fee and keep the service active. Better to be calm and to the point with the rep when they call.
Just explain in less words, being wordy gives them a chance to keep the questions going on. I had to wait roadside for four hours. They gave full refund and continued the service as well as erasing the tow.

[SofaKing]

Glad to hear it’s working again.
“The old adage that anything mechanical can go bad at any time still holds true.”
It does hold true regarding the possibility; what I was calculating was the probability. The diagram below is from what is called “MSG-3” and is one of several used in determining maintenance programs for transport category aircraft including the Boeing 787. This chart represents the failure curve of a component that is prone to wear-out, like a starter. Typically, but not always, in a starter the bearings or the brushes are the failure modes, they usually wear out and slow, inconsistent, cranking results. This is when all the experienced folks intervene, the average house frau will continue to use the vehicle until the starter is toasted, often inducing other problems. Since there was nothing mentioned about the starter having issues beforehand, the failure was instantaneous, total, and the starter worked on the bench, I threw the BS flag. In hindsight, I could have been kinder to the AAA manager, I am frequently addressed in all places automotive as if I am retarded and it has ceased to be as amusing as it once was (unless it’s from a cute young lady) so I was, perhaps, too aggressive impugning his/her integrity.

I'll have to massage the chart later, too big to attach.

[Fordestes]

Call your local Better Business Bureau and file a complaint. I have towed many cars from Dealers shops and sears Roebuck etc. I cornered a dealership tech who was trying to rip my daughter off for nearly 4000.00 On a transmission rebuild after cornering him I defined the problem as valve resonance , of which didn't cause a operation problem, come to find out he said it was supposed to shift 3 times as an overdrive would do and the trans wasn't an overdrive, Needless to say he didn't do any work and she drove the car for quite a few years after and never done anything but normal maintenance. glad your up and running.