Big mystery finally solved...and who deserves the prize?

[sgwilson904]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

I also go along with Tom's idea. I think there is some other problem and my $.02 worth of comments would be that it is something electrical. But what is confusing about it being electrical is that an electrical problem would normally close the engine down, not let it sputter. So I am not of much help here except I don't think you have found the problem yet!

You raise some interesting points but puh-leeeeze, say it ain't so! I guess I'll know soon enough if I take it south several miles this weekend.

As for the starter speed: I must say that I do sense the starter is turning much stronger and faster than it did before. I never thought--and none of the club guys did, either--that it was sooo slow as to be a problem at first.

I also notice that now the horn, which always would blow before, blows decidedly louder and stronger than it did.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If it's truely cranking faster and a better horn, then that's a good sign. I'm not a fan of bare metal, like sanding the crossmember where the ground strap is mounted, but a star washer between the cable and frame should give a very good ground connection.

Once running, the coil can get voltage from the battery and/or the generator, and that's another reason I'm not sold on the poor ground solution.

[George Miller]

I hope you have the problem fixed, but I do not think so.

[sgwilson904]

Originally Posted by George Miller

I hope you have the problem fixed, but I do not think so.

30 miles yesterday around town. 20 miles today. No sign of any problem as yet...but the real test is tomorrow on the 110-mile RT club tour down past St. Augustine. Fingers crossed.

You know, George, you may well be right but I'm hoping not. Sort of reminds me of my dear old mother. Whenever I got dejected about something, she'd always take me aside and tell me, "You know, Son, things always seems the darkest just before it's pitch black!" God bless my mom! She's always quite the optimist, isn't she?

Next update: Sunday night.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Steve,

Humble additional "electrical" opinion -- only in High Humidity Areas:

FWIW, I have heard this particular "electrical" story so many times from school trained mechanics, shade tree mechanics, car owners, etc., etc., "especially" along coastal areas where one experiences high humidity, e.g., with ferrous oxide & non-ferrous corrosion:

I. Problem:

1. Vintage engine just will not start; or,

2. Vintage engine runs, starts missing, almost dies, then runs again "intermittently".

II. The Normal Reported Cure:

A. Change points; or,

B. Change condenser; or,

C. Change coil; or,

D. Change a wire?

Then whoever changed whatever reports it was "definitely" either item A., B., C., or D., & the "bad" part was thrown away & a new part was provided.

Later a vintage engine whisperer comes along, smiles, & asks for the "bad" part, tests same, & shows that it functions perfectly!

What "actually" happened was that, (again in "high humidity" areas), enough corrosion set in on the wire connection(s) to intermittently obstruct the flow of electricity.

When the "bad" part was extracted & thrown away, the connections were cleaned, a new part was provided; hence, the flow of electricity resumed.

In my opinion, Tom & others have credible comments such as:

a) When the engine is running, one can "totally" disconnect the battery because the electrical flow is coming from the generator; &,

b) Something else "appears" to have cause intermittent engine operation.

I cannot remember how many times I have witnessed & heard of no-start situations on all types of vintage engines, vintage outboard motors, etc., etc., caused by either corroded points that had to be filed with a point file, or something like junction box connections that had to be cleaned after finding a slight green colored corrosion.

If your whisperer checked and/or cleaned "all" of your electrical connections, (if they appeared they needed cleaning), at the points, condenser, coil, amp-meter, ignition switch, & junction box, in addition to finding a "bad" ground wire, I think if I were you, I would feel "electrically" safe to drive to Fairbanks & back.

Had a guy contact me by private email a few years year ago from Oregon about his Model A -- started walking him through a sequence with starting to check volts at the battery -- he gave up half way -- had his Model A towed into town & spent $375.00 or so to clean a wire in the junction box.

I starting using & have had good results with "Kopr-Shield" anti-corrosion on all electrical connections.

Just another experience -- but if you move to an arid region, forget about rust & corrosion.

Hope this helps and best of luck tomorrow!

[Rock Hornbuckle]

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H L Chauvin. Very good point about the humidity vs. corrosion. I would also add, these Model A's are being stored for months at a time. Some in unheated and or non humidity controlled areas, which can contribute to corrosion. I have always lived by the addage, ground everything, engine, frame, gen, body, etc. It's the only way to insure having a complete path for current flow. Then, clean those connections once a year as part of your annual maintenance, and use a product like what H.L. Chauvin suggested. "Kopr-Shield"

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Rock,

Might add that the actual corossion of electrical connections occurs more in fall, winter, & spring than in the constant heat of the summer, e.g., when temperatures vary about 40 degrees or more in a 24 hour period whereby electrical metal connections can get cold at night.

Cold dry, or cold humid nights & warm humid days causes warm humid air to condense on cold metal.

Experiment: Go outside on a warm humid day with a hot cup of coffee & a glass of ice water with ice in it -- outside of coffee cup stays dry -- glass is dripping with condensation -- same principle.

Witenssed many construction workers from more arid regions temporarily relocate for work in humid areas -- they leave metal tools outside overnight -- next day wonder why they see so much rust.

This type of corrosion on electrical connections occurs far less in the very humid warmer areas in the Tropics because the metal connections do not get cold enough at night; hence far less condensation & corrosion on electrical connections.

Allt this may sound silly to some in more arid regions; however, sincerely hope this helps someone with a Model A stored in an unheated garage in a humid coastal area where it can get cold at night.

[JMC12765]

Boy ..the model a is so simple its hard not to get mad over something like this that doesnt work .......and then have it be a ground

[sgwilson904]

Okay, friends, here's the latest on my Florida Pickup Truck Mystery:

112 miles today on a club tour event. Much, much better performance. Only twice did I experience a problem and both times much, much milder than ever before.

Once, after a sustained cruise at 45 for about 10 minutes, I slowed to go around a traffic circle and then, when powering back up on the straightaway, the engine began to hesitate, sputter and backfired a couple of times while it lost about 20% of the power it had been running at. I turned the choke rod a couple of times and although that helped, the problem persisted. Then, I pulled out the choke, waited for it to clear up and then pushed it back in. When it was running better after 2-3 minutes of cruise, I twisted the choke back in the direction where it had run well previously and it continued to run fine.

Then, once again after cruising for a while, it sputtered and this time corrected with a full turn of the choke rode, not need to pull out the choke. When it smoothed out, I turned it back...but then, less than two minutes later, I stopped to meet up with some other guys, turned off the ignition, and there was one incredibly loud backfire. Fortunately, we were all out of there before the SWAT team arrived and I experienced no further troubles.

So now, we're thinking the carburetor needs some attention, that there may be something in there that's clogging a jet. It certainly seems that perhaps a better (now double) ground has solved 90% of the trouble and hopefully after we overhaul the carb, it will ALL be solved?

[1931 flamingo]

Fuel flow,leaky manifod gasket(s)??
Is there another carb avail to swap out , perhaps from someone on the tour??
Paul in CT

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Rock,

Might add that the actual corossion of electrical connections occurs more in fall, winter, & spring than in the constant heat of the summer, e.g., when temperatures vary about 40 degrees or more in a 24 hour period whereby electrical metal connections can get cold at night.

Cold dry, or cold humid nights & warm humid days causes warm humid air to condense on cold metal.

Experiment: Go outside on a warm humid day with a hot cup of coffee & a glass of ice water with ice in it -- outside of coffee cup stays dry -- glass is dripping with condensation -- same principle.

Witenssed many construction workers from more arid regions temporarily relocate for work in humid areas -- they leave metal tools outside overnight -- next day wonder why they see so much rust.

This type of corrosion on electrical connections occurs far less in the very humid warmer areas in the Tropics because the metal connections do not get cold enough at night; hence far less condensation & corrosion on electrical connections.

Allt this may sound silly to some in more arid regions; however, sincerely hope this helps someone with a Model A stored in an unheated garage in a humid coastal area where it can get cold at night.

Hi H.L.

True, condensation is much more visually noticed in colder temperatures, but ALL air will contain some percentage of humidity reguardless of it's ambient temperature. It is the temperature differential proportional to it's percentage of humidity content that causes dewpoint. I have designed (engineered) heating and air conditioning systems in various climates for many different types of buildings, and all of them have humidity factors in the thermodynamic equations. You do not need to physically see condensation for humidity to exist and do it's corrosive deeds. Therefor, no matter what climate you store an electrical system in, you must perform due diligence and annual maintenance. We had corrosive effects in S.Carolina, DaNang, Hawaii, Okinawa, and the desert of California.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Sure sounds like typical ethanol garbage gas problems. My car does the same thing if I have 10% ethanol garbage in the gas and the temp is 70* or above. When I use the good gas, (which is almost all the time) I never have a problem. Ethanol gas boils in the carb and/or fuel line and causes the lean mixture you've described.

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Sure sounds like typical ethanol garbage gas problems. My car does the same thing if I have 10% ethanol garbage in the gas and the temp is 70* or above. When I use the good gas, (which is almost all the time) I never have a problem. Ethanol gas boils in the carb and/or fuel line and causes the lean mixture you've described.

Tom, I think you're on to something there. IYO Could the ethanol coupled with a weakened spark (from decreased current flow) be a contributing factor? Is it possible that this problem is from several factors culminating and disguising itself as a singular problem? Has anyone seen something like this before?

[George Miller]

Like I said before if the choke helps it is a gas flow problem. Probable not the carb, but I know every one wants to blame carb. Like Tom said it might be the crap gas. I would check the flow to the carb should be a big steady flow. Take the line off at the carb to check the flow. It is only going to get worse as the weather gets hotter.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Rock Hornbuckle

Tom, I think you're on to something there. IYO Could the ethanol coupled with a weakened spark (from decreased current flow) be a contributing factor? Is it possible that this problem is from several factors culminating and disguising itself as a singular problem? Has anyone seen something like this before?

Without being there all we can do is guess and suggest.

[1931 flamingo]

Would love to be with you for the "road tests" from Jax to St Aug and back.............
Paul in CT

[Tom Wesenberg]

Has this car been on any long runs lately in warm weather to see if the problem is fixed for sure?

[Mitch//pa]

maybe no news is good news in this case