34 pickup steering arm question

[drfromnc]

My 34 pickup has the original steering box, pitman arm, drag link, axle, spring and perch bolts but also has hydraulic brake setup that includes the 37-41 spindles, backing plates and drums, hoop style steering arm, and later style tie rod. I spoke with Joe at Joe’s Speed shop and plan to send him my axle and spindles for him to drop the axle 4” and also install new kingpin set as well as dropping the steering arms on the spindles to clear my original unsplit wishbones. I plan to buy a posies super slider reverse eye spring to match up with the lowered axle too.
More recently I spoke with Richard Lacy about getting some of his pre-bent brake lines. During my discussion with him on what I was planning to do he said I would not be happy with using the later spindles with the hoop style steering arm and that I should find some original 32-34 spindles to drop so that the factory steering arm angle (I think he said) would be correct? Richard is to send me more information on this but I know, and he said, he was very busy and not sure when he could email me the information. With all due respect to him, could someone else explain to me what problem I might have with using my 34 dropped axle and later round spindles with hoop style steering arms? Also curious what drag link arm I could use instead of the original one for my setup? Thanks in advance.

[glennpm]

Hi,


Here are a couple of posts I made regarding this and also a more lengthy discussion by Dennis Lacy.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...0&postcount=20
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...0&postcount=13


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/....970252/page-4

[Krylon32]

I sent my 32/34 spindles to a supposedly reputable vendor to have the arms dropped and when I got them back they were so screwed up they were unusable. I ended up using another pair of spindles and putting the tie rod on top of the bones. I also dropped the steering arm to follow the bend in the axle to reduce drag link angle. 32 truck has a Neal Jennings Hudson box and a P&J steering stabilizer, also using original 32/34 tie rod ends. Drives really good.

[glennpm]

A few pictures I marked up for additional clarification.

[drfromnc]

thank you glennpm and Krylon32 for the explanations. got it. now I don't know what to do. Hmmm.

[cas3]

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The info from Richard Lecy, and the Photo shown by Glennpm, are of coarse a fact. However, also a fact is that people have been running round back spindles with a steering hoop for many decades. I am no engineer, and certainly Henry did this for a reason, but it really is not much of big deal IMHO. I would also just get some Nicop lines, and bend them up yourself, its not that hard and only you can see what needs to done for your application

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by drfromnc

thank you glennpm and Krylon32 for the explanations. got it. now I don't know what to do. Hmmm.

Soooo.....WHAT's not to know about what to do? Essentially, what the problem is with your PREVIOUSLY-PLANNED set-up is that your RIGHT turns will be somewhat compromised. By having your PLANNED configuration, the LOOP-style steering arm will be centered above the axle when the wheels are pointed straight ahead. As can be seen with the stock '32-'34 steering arm BELOW, it is centered well forward of the axle center line when wheels are pointed straight ahead. Your RIGHT-Hand turns will be limited to a wider radius because your "hoop" set-up will already have given-up that much travel of the spindle through it's entire travel cycle. As "cas" has noted above, thousands of guys have gotten by with the hoop system for seventy and eighty years now. But like Richard Lacy said, it ain't "right", and it will always bug you. Find yourself a pair of '32-'34 spindles, and continue-on with the program. As far as the brake lines, every car guy should have the experience of making brake lines, and with the CUNIFER stuff available today, it gets no easier. Plus, a few of us HERE will help you any way possible along the way. Get that ad for a pair of "Spindles Wanted" pasted-up in the FREE "Swap Meet" section available in the big RED band at the top of EVERY page of Ford Barn. DD





This second pic shows your PLANNED set-up, and emphasizes the drag link being centered in the hoop DIRECTLY centered over axle with wheels pointed straight ahead.





As far as brake lines, the relatively new stuff in town is Copper-Nickel alloy that is designed especially as brake tubing. "Cunifer" is probably the safest and fully-tested stuff that I would use (Some copy-cat brands make-do with thinner wall thicknesses). Even Volvo, Aston-Martin & Porsche as safety-minded as they are, have used this stuff on production cars for some time now. This IS NOT to be confused with regular old hardware-store copper tubing....it's entirely different stuff. It's totally forgiving, and easily bent to shape, as well as being able to make beautiful double flares. Read this link BELOW carefully.


https://cunifer.com/




.

[drfromnc]

thanks V8coopman, I will check with my local early ford parts guy to see if he has a set and if not place ad on swap meet. good info on the Cunifer. I will check it out. My brother has run brake lines as well as fuel lines so he has some experience and tools

[32phil]

Contact Andy Kohler at Kohler Kustom
ph. 570 494 7362
He's in Cogan Station, Pennsylvania
He has dropped several axles for us along with bending the front spindles to match and clear the wishbones. If you send him your king pins he will re-bush and hone the spindles properly at the same time.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've used both Andy and Joe - both have done good work for me. The best way to get this setup is to have either of them mockup the spindles, the axle and the king pins - along with whatever style of wishbone or radius rods you're going to be using. That way they can ensure that everything is correctly setup. Also, you may need to shorten your tie-rod - so I'd include that in the "care package" as well.

[Ol' Ron]

Often wondered why more people didn't use cross steering on the early Model A and 32/34 cars and trucks. Toyota Celtic makes a steering box with the input shaft on the left hand side of the output shaft. This gives much more clearance to the drivers side exhaust manafold. Also the ford pitman arm fits the box as well as a GM rag joint on thE input shaft. This box was avable during the 70's and I found one for $77 BUCKS/

[cas3]

Also, I dont see it mentioned here yet, but your later hydraulic backing plates do not bolt up to 34 spindles. Bolt pattern on the backing plates is a bigger pattern, and bigger bolts. Several methods around this hurdle, some slot the backing plate, some weld in the holes and redrill, lots to think about. Last one I did I welded 1/4" square stock around the face of the 34 spindle, welded all the holes shut, and redrilled to match the later backing plate. you also need a spacer to center the big hole for the spindle, guys used to use a piston ring, and you also need to have a spacer on the spindle to run the bigger bearing of the later hub. Again, lots of things going on here to switch to the 34 spindle. I believe Richard Lacy sells the spacer, and I think Boling bros sells a backing plate for the early spindle, not sure as I always make the stuff at home. Now, about the steering arm, if you are building an open wheeled car, then yes, I understand the desire for the sexy looking original part as opposed to a piece of speedway junk. If this is all under a fender, who will know? Another note, I dont think you loose any noticeable steering radius. The steering box, worm and sector, are capable of turning further than the stop bolts on the king pins. So, I think even with the loss of travel from moving the pivot point to center of axle, most if not all will be absorbed by the travel of the worm and sector. I would like to hear some thoughts as to why Henry put the pivot point ahead of the axle in the first place. Since he was going to design the drag link for the car also, why not just put it in center of axle with the drag link to match? Gotta be a reason. In my jalopys, I make my own drag link, and use a later pitman arm and later Tie rod ends. Its just easy because I can do it all in house.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

I would like to hear some thoughts as to why Henry put the pivot point ahead of the axle in the first place. Since he was going to design the drag link for the car also, why not just put it in center of axle with the drag link to match? Gotta be a reason.

cas3 .....You make some very good points throughout, as usual! Now, as to WHY the angle of the dangle is all goofy and not centered OVER the axle....that is EASY. IF the spindle end of the drag link WAS NOT spaced out to the left end of the axle where it meets the spindle, and assuming that the drag link went STRAIGHT forward in a line the same distance from the car's longitudinal centerline as the Pitman arm, the angle would have been 90º directly over the axle. The idea is to have a 90º angle between the spindle arm, and the drag link so as to assure equal FORE, & AFT movement of the spindle arm to afford equal turn radii, left OR right......WHEW! DD

.

[cas3]

Well...I had to read that several times and do lots of phsyphern in my noggin, but I think I got it. Kinda reminded me of Kube's words of wisdom, " I can explain it, but I can't make you understand it" !!! Anyway, thanks DD, learned sumthin new today. I have lots of old street rod builder books I bought back when I was younger and even more foolish, perhaps should have studied the chassis section more. I have since "filtered" some of that knowledge as nowdays I am usually just bolting together old ford parts to build an old ford! but, thanks for your time explaining.

[ursus]

My Model A coupe was converted to '40 Ford hydraulics back in the 1960's using the round-back spindles mounted on the Model-A axle. To maintain the original side-steering arrangement they welded the upper piece of the Model-A/B spindle to the upper round back spindle and used a Model A steering arm to connect with the drag link after cutting off the drag link arm and using the stock '40 tie rods for connecting to the right side spindle.

This worked very well but doesn't look quite right when trying to maintain the stock "A" appearance as the tie rod hangs a bit below the non-dropped Model a axle. I am converting this all back to stock "A" spindles and the matching Boling Bros. backing plates for the '40 drums and hydraulics. I wonder if anybody has seen such a modification of the round-back spindles for side steering and if anybody would be interested using them as described.

[ursus]

My Model A coupe was converted to '40 Ford hydraulics back in the 1960's using the round-back spindles mounted on the Model-A axle. To maintain the original side-steering arrangement they welded the upper piece of the Model-A/B spindle to the upper round back spindle and used a Model A steering arm to connect with the drag link after cutting off the drag link arm and using the stock '40 tie rods for connecting to the right side spindle.

This worked very well but doesn't look quite right when trying to maintain the stock "A" appearance as the tie rod hangs a bit below the non-dropped Model a axle. I am converting this all back to stock "A" spindles and the matching Boling Bros. backing plates for the '40 drums and hydraulics. I wonder if anybody has seen such a modification of the round-back spindles for side steering and if anybody would be interested using them as described.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

cas3 .....You make some very good points throughout, as usual! Now, as to WHY the angle of the dangle is all goofy and not centered OVER the axle....that is EASY. IF the spindle end of the drag link WAS NOT spaced out to the left end of the axle where it meets the spindle, and assuming that the drag link went STRAIGHT forward in a line the same distance from the car's longitudinal centerline as the Pitman arm, the angle would have been 90º directly over the axle. The idea is to have a 90º angle between the spindle arm, and the drag link so as to assure equal FORE, & AFT movement of the spindle arm to afford equal turn radii, left OR right......WHEW! DD

.

While there is other stuff going on in this picture; it illustrates what COOPMAN is describing.

The angle between the drag link and the hoop steering arm is greater than 90 degrees. When turning left the steering has to go to and over 90 degrees; compared to turning right where it is starting out over 90 degrees.

This difference in geometry results in "quicker" steering to the right.

Henry must have felt this wasn't right so he put the steering arm eye forward of center.

Now, I've driven many cars with hoop or slingshot arms and the difference in geometry wasn't really noticeable to me; your results may vary.

While the '32-'34 spindles have a good looking steering arm; the top thrust bearing is a little more work to set up right. Using the needle thrust bearings under the axle is an option; I wonder about their longevity.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

Well...I had to read that several times and do lots of phsyphern in my noggin, but I think I got it. Kinda reminded me of Kube's words of wisdom, " I can explain it, but I can't make you understand it" !!! Anyway, thanks DD, learned sumthin new today. I have lots of old street rod builder books I bought back when I was younger and even more foolish, perhaps should have studied the chassis section more. I have since "filtered" some of that knowledge as nowdays I am usually just bolting together old ford parts to build an old ford! but, thanks for your time explaining.

cas3 .....I have a picture SOMEWHERE that I've looked for this past three hours that explains it perfectly, but I just can't find it. This pic below should suffice though, showing almost the same angle looking down the drag link. With the drag link at THIS angle, now imagine a 90º at the end of the drag link closest to you. For a true "90", the intersect MUST be in front of the axle center line. DD




.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by rich b

While there is other stuff going on in this picture; it illustrates what COOPMAN is describing.

The angle between the drag link and the hoop steering arm is greater than 90 degrees. When turning left the steering has to go to and over 90 degrees; compared to turning right where it is starting out over 90 degrees.

Thank you, Rich....great example! That looks like an old 331/365 Caddy engine!! DD

[Mart]

Ah! as an engineer I like threads like this.
I will tell what I know on this subject.
32-34 spindles have the tie rod above the radius arms. To allow for this the radius arm is set low relative to the axle attachment point.
37-40 (and beyond) spindles have the tie rod below the axle. The radius arm is set high relative to the axle attachment point.
So if you put 37 type spindles on a 32 type axle and wishbone the tie rod is very close to the underside of the radius arm.
If you then drop the axle the steering arms have to be dropped a looong way to get the tie rod under the 32 type arms, and clear throughout the lock to lock travel.

The 37 type spindles require a bolt on arm. This is at 90 degrees to the spindle, rather than 90 degrees to the drag link. This also means the drag link needs to be shorter by about 3/4".

In my mind, while the error in the 90 degrees does create a slight difference in geometry between left and right, it is not that significant to make a car drive bad.

What will make a car drive bad is if the 32 type non adjustable drag link is retained. The 3/4" error at the front will throw the pitman arm 3/4" off the sweet spot and this will lead to vague steering in the straight ahead position. This can be overcome by using an adjustable drag link.

If you retain the 32-34 spindles, you get the better geometry. If you can run the drag link above the radius rods that is better as the 32 type radius arms are low to allow for this. The steering arms can be reshaped to lower the rod so it is just above the arms like stock.

If you have a flattened crossmember and a flatter/reversed eye spring, you might have a problem running the tie rod above the arms. It might foul the crank pulley for instance.

So what you have to do is weigh up all the variables.

Spindles.
Axle drop.
Radius rod type.
Bolt on arm type.
Steering box type.
Drag link type.

Then carefully select a combo that will work on your car taking all the above points into consideration.

Hope this helps.

Mart.