Joint MARC / MAFCA Clubs

[Jerry Parr WI]

I agree with Marco also. Since a major portion of the club's dues go to the magazine publication a combined club would need to eliminate one magazine or substantially increase dues. This eliminates the only advantage I have ever heard promoted, the reduction of dues. No financial gain and a potential magazine loss as I see it.

[Dick Carne]

A sincere "thanks" to everyone that has responded, and to anyone who may respond as well going forward. I have been around Model A's and MARC (at that time) since the early 1960's as a teenager, and during that time I have seen the ebb and flow of a resurgence by first one and then the other club (I've also served a MARC Regional Director and a MAFCA Chapter President).

When we were reviewing the proponents of one affiliation vs. the other in determining the future course for our local Region several years back, we were finally persuaded more by the insurance/liabilty coverage afforded at that time by the MARC organization. That appears to have changed since that time (and I also understand the limitation of coverage extending only to the Club itself - we have resolved to this point to keep dues lower than most, so there is not really a "deep pocket" from a club treasury standpoint to entice a prospective plaintiff to pursue the Club as a potential co-defendant, but in that event, and under the single affiliation we currently have, then to pick up with the "other" charter would allow the group to continue virtually unscathed by any litigation).

Insurance issues aside, I believe that the motivation behind the current "push" to consider a dual affiliation is due largely to an interest in being able to incorporate into the local Club's newsletter and web-page those publication resources available through both national clubs, with noted credits given of course. However, I remain mindful of the dual costs to affiliate with both national clubs in that event (if only for Directors themselves), but that said, its sometimes difficult enough to find folks willing to serve in a Board capacity without adding an additional cost to that challenge, especially for folks on fixed incomes and otherwise moderate incomes.

Again, thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.

Dick

[frank55a]

I have read what some people have written about the insurance issue regarding both clubs. This whole issue came about a number of years ago as result of a large claim against one of the National club's liability policy due to an event that happened at a swap meet sponsored by one of their affiliated local clubs. As a result one of the national clubs insurance rates sky rocketed. The other club took actions to minimize the exposure of their local clubs, members and the national from such an event.

A few specific individuals have an axe to grind with one of the national clubs. I suggest if you are interested in how the policy is administrated, go to both clubs web sites and read for yourself their policy regarding what is covered, who is covered, what is not covered, and what is considered "high risk". I think you will find the wording on both clubs' web sites is almost identical.

Within both clubs, members must have their own auto insurance policy. Specifically, auto accidents are not covered by either national club's general liability policy.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Dick Carne

... and I also understand the limitation of coverage extending only to the Club itself -

Not true, see my post.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Why not just form a LLC and not belong to ether club. My understanding of the insurance provided by the national clubs is it only covers the club not the individual members if there is an accident. If you are involved in an accident when on a tour you the individual involved needs to have insurance because you are responsible for damages. If you hold or have an event, don't you have to provide separate insurance anyway, payed for by your club?

No. That's the point. It's easy to contact MAFCA and get a certificate of insurance covering your specific club event. MARC has become reluctant to do so. If you have several high-profile events a year buying your own event insurance could bankrupt a club.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Dog here,
Bill read me all the posts!! Sounds like it would be as confusing as bringing BORDER COLLIES to compete at an ALL RAT TERRIER SHOW! First, we would disagree on TREATS,----Mice VS Mutton, then everything would slow down & WAIT while they got brushed & trimmed, GOSH! hair everywhere! (Us Ratters are self grooming, self cleaning, just like your OVEN!) What a confusing mess that would be! Isn't there an old saying, like, "TOO MANY HANDS IN THE POT SPOILS THE SOUP!???? Never mind, I think something was lost in the translation from People talk to Dog Latin. (Read this to YOUR dog & get his take on it!) Buster T.

[redmodelt]

"If you have several high-profile events a year buying your own event insurance could bankrupt a club."
If your club in not a member of one of the national clubs, except for tours and maybe a swap meet what high-profile event(s) would you be holding?
__________________

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

If your club in not a member of one of the national clubs, except for tours and maybe a swap meet what high-profile event(s) would you be holding?

You answered your own question. For a small club, two should do it. Liability insurance for one public swap-$1,500. One picnic with guests on public property-$1,200. 40 club members? OK, everybody cough up $67.50 in addition to your dues!

[redmodelt]

If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question. I can see the swap meet liability but not sure about the picnic, guess because the only time we eat is if we are on a tour or spring and fall banquets as a group. I would have to ask the powers to be if we get insurance for are spring and fall banquets or when we stop at a public park to eat lunch. As a member of one of the sponsoring clubs of the Portland Swap Meet the insurance cost does not come up in the budget because the clubs that sponsor it formed a corp. that runs the meet.

[MVal]

Frank 55's comment above that "neither national club's insurance covers an auto accident" isn't true. MAFCA is currently involved in a lawsuit which resulted from an auto accident during the Grand tour of a meet in central CA. The driver of the A died and his family is suing the local club, region and MAFCA. The A was stopped to make a left turn and another vehicle coming the other way veered into his lane and hit the A headon. Remember the policy is a general liability and the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by MVal

Frank 55's comment above that "neither national club's insurance covers an auto accident" isn't true. MAFCA is currently involved in a lawsuit which resulted from an auto accident during the Grand tour of a meet in central CA. The driver of the A died and his family is suing the local club, region and MAFCA. The A was stopped to make a left turn and another vehicle coming the other way veered into his lane and hit the A headon. Remember the policy is a general liability and the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!

I would be interested to hear the outcome of this law suite. It's sad that the family is going after the clubs when really the family should be going after the driver of the other vehicle.

[frank55a]

I stand by what I wrote about neither clubs General liability insurance policy not covering automobile related events i.e., auto accidents.

Coverage per MAFCA's web site:
General liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage available to MAFCA.

Coverage per MARC's web site:
General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage available to MARC Directors, staff and MARC members of MARC Regions or Special Interest Groups located in the United States and Canada.

MVAL is also partiallycorrect in that "the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!" Specifically, anyone can sue just about anyone for just about any reason, but obtaining a favorable judgment may be another story. Obtaining a judgment that would require MAFCA's insurance company to pay, may be another story when they (MAFCA and as I understand their insurance company) say the liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage.

I think we would all like to know more about this accident and the outcome. If the outcome of this legal action results in a judicial ruling against MAFCA and the insurance company has to pay, then from what I heard resulting from their past big claim there will be some really big changes made with respect to MAFCA's insurance coverage. We could speculate what the impact would be to MAFCA, the MAFCA Chapters, and MAFCA membership, but that is premature.

I hate to sound negative but the reality is the next potential claim is just around the corner. This is why it is so important for both national clubs and all Chapters and Regions to take whatever steps they must to protect themselves and mitigate their exposure.

[denis4x4]

For what it's worth, a number of automotive oriented clubs in the four corners area formed a club council and contract with a broker to provide insurance for shows, swap meets, etc. The costs were spread over a number of clubs and often times the municipality will allow a club to "piggy back" on the city's policy. Having run some major 4x4 events with national media coverage, I never found inurance to be a problem.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by frank55a

I stand by what I wrote about neither clubs General liability insurance policy not covering automobile related events i.e., auto accidents.

Coverage per MAFCA's web site:
General liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage available to MAFCA.

Coverage per MARC's web site:
General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage available to MARC Directors, staff and MARC members of MARC Regions or Special Interest Groups located in the United States and Canada.

MVAL is also partiallycorrect in that "the types of claims covered are only exceeded by a trial lawyer's imagination!" Specifically, anyone can sue just about anyone for just about any reason, but obtaining a favorable judgment may be another story. Obtaining a judgment that would require MAFCA's insurance company to pay, may be another story when they (MAFCA and as I understand their insurance company) say the liability insurance is for non-automobile related coverage.

I think we would all like to know more about this accident and the outcome. If the outcome of this legal action results in a judicial ruling against MAFCA and the insurance company has to pay, then from what I heard resulting from their past big claim there will be some really big changes made with respect to MAFCA's insurance coverage. We could speculate what the impact would be to MAFCA, the MAFCA Chapters, and MAFCA membership, but that is premature.

I hate to sound negative but the reality is the next potential claim is just around the corner. This is why it is so important for both national clubs and all Chapters and Regions to take whatever steps they must to protect themselves and mitigate their exposure.

My apologies to you if I was not clear. You are right about claims when the A is in motion. I was speaking about the parking of the cars at displays, lunches, points of interest, and the like. Again I'm sorry if my answers were not clear.

[frank55a]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

My apologies to you if I was not clear. You are right about claims when the A is in motion. I was speaking about the parking of the cars at displays, lunches, points of interest, and the like. Again I'm sorry if my answers were not clear.

Mike, you are correct and I agree! I was not referring to what you wrote.

I was referring to what MVal wrote when he said that I was wrong, and that the policy does cover auto accident claims. Both national clubs web site are clear that the General Liability protection is for non-automobile related coverage. This has been explained many times as it does not cover moving auto accidents, such as what MVal described.

As tragic as it was, as I understand that is not within the scope of the General Liability coverage of either club. Without knowing any details, the family may be trying to sue the Chapter and MAFCA, and perhaps the insurance company is only involve to the extent of providing legal counsel for the suite. I think we all would like to know more about this suite/claim and the outcome.

[Chris in WNC]

Originally Posted by Jordan

the family should be going after the driver of the other vehicle.

following the money.......
the family and/or their attorneys are covering all bases in case any of the included entities has any insurance or assets. it is very likely the person that caused the accident has neither.
whether you agree or not, that's the world we live in now.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

following the money.......
the family and/or their attorneys are covering all bases in case any of the included entities has any insurasnce or assets. it is very likely the person that caused the accident has neither.
whether you agree or not, that's the world we live in now.

Other countries must wonder what kind of country we live in when they read about this stuff. I had a neighbor that was a passenger in a car that was hit and driver of the car that hit him and sent him to the hospital where he will never be the same due to head injuries, named him in a law suit. While thrown out he still had to hire (and pay) a lawyer do defend himself.

[CarlG]

Been going on for a long time!

When I was 18 years old, an "old man" (old to me at the time anyway) ran a red light coming out of a shopping center and I T-Boned him (passenger side of the car). It was just after dark, he was "legally blind", driving without a license , no insurance (even though he was an insurance broker), received a citation, etc, etc.

He sued MY insurance co -- and they settled out of court, paid for his car and medical bills and lord knows what else. This subsequently went on MY record, despite all my objections to the contrary. And, I had to fix my car at my own expense! (I only had liability -- cheap car, college student, etc.)

[steve s]

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

I've been an advocate of one club, 'The Model A Ford Club", for a long time. I don't think the old timers egos will ever let it happen. Perhaps someday in the future the younger movers and shakers in both clubs will realize that two national clubs for one car is stupid and finally find common ground. Sorry if I offend the ego maniac old timers

I agree, Glenn.

It's pretty obvious that given shared judging standards and joint meets, and the very need for a thread such as this one in the first place, common ground has already been found--love of Model A's.

Wouldn't it be grand if there were a grass-roots demand for an election on whether or not to merge?

Steve

[Fred]

It will NOT work !! Do you realize the amount people would quit, even before the ink was dry ??..