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11-15-2018, 01:42 PM | #1 |
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Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
As some of you may know, I am making reproduction brass "Trash Can" condensers for use in older aftermarket points ignition systems. Up to now, these have been rated at .22 microfarads, because that is the the highest capacitance unit available that will meet our specifications and still fit into our traditional case. My partner and I have recently found a .33 microfarad film capacitor that seems to be suitable and will fit in our case. The .33 microfarad units are usually a better match for the older Ford distributors (helmets, crabs, and rabbit ears). Up to now I have been doing most of the long term testing myself, but I don't have access to an early Ford (I'm a shoebox guy).
Therefore, I am looking for someone who can do a long term test of these with me. I would prefer someone running a suitable vehicle on a regular basis. It doesn't matter if the engine has been modified, as long as it uses an early style distributor. As a matter of fact, I would prefer a slightly modified engine (heads, carbs, etc.) I would like someone that would drive their vehicle on a daily basis, perhaps in marginal weather, and put a substantial amount of mileage on it. I would send you a condenser, clamp, and lead, and would want the unit returned for analysis after 10,000 miles or one year (whichever comes LAST). I would then like it returned so we can do analysis after the fact. Of course, there is always the chance that the unit might fail before the specified time or mileage, but that would be valuable information as well. Oh yeah, one other thing. It would be preferable that a new set of points be installed at the same time as the condenser and then returned with the condenser at the end of the test. This will allow us to determine if the capacitance is correct, and if not, which way it is off. Any takers? |
11-15-2018, 02:13 PM | #2 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
I will put my hand up, our 33 does lots of miles,in all weather , mostly hot weather,
drive it all over Australia towing our caravan, used every week, nearly stock 99a engine . 6v with 3 bolt helmet dist. Lawrie |
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11-15-2018, 04:11 PM | #3 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Denny: Lawrie gets my vote, he needs good parts for passing all those road trains.
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11-15-2018, 07:16 PM | #4 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Quote:
All most all 32 t0 48 condensers Will test good when they are cold. I heat them to about 180 degrees, this is when you can only hold them between 2 fingers for about 2 seconds if you have tough fingers. Heat he condenser and with a needle type analog meter like a Simpson 260. Set into a high range ohm scale and reverse the probes from body to lead, every time the leads are reversed the condenser will store the battery voltage from the meter and read about 1/2 scale and show it slowly discharge. G.M.
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11-15-2018, 09:59 PM | #5 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Sheesh. Try to something good for the hobby, and you get stuff like this. We are using a film capacitor rated to 200° centigrade and good to 800 volts. We have tested it with a professional condenser tester. And here I get "use an analog voltmeter" and references to "hold them between 2 fingers for about 2 seconds". If you don't want to participate fine, stay away. But don't get in the way of progress.
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11-16-2018, 07:20 AM | #6 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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11-16-2018, 07:24 AM | #7 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
From reading Lawrie's adventures I would think he would be an ideal testbed.
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11-16-2018, 08:02 AM | #8 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Denny, You are thinking the right way by testing in the "field" so to speak. Part of my career at Ford was life cycle testing. I had five live engines to test starters, oil filters etc.
We did testing in test chambers that did not get the same result as testing a suspect part in a car in the "real world". Keep doing what you do. mike |
11-16-2018, 08:29 AM | #9 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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Well-said, Tub! As usual, there are always a couple (of regulars) that either don't read the post, or that just DON'T GET IT......period! And then, they continue-on to promote some other off-subject-widget or idea that might work perfectly-well on some other planet. A great offer you've made here, on a seemingly well-thought-out product. DD |
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11-16-2018, 10:17 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Quote:
Jim @ Bubbas |
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11-16-2018, 10:37 AM | #11 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Thanks for the support guys. It sounds like "Lawrie" would be a perfect test subject, but the fact that he is in Australia complicates matters a bit. I'm not really up on shipping costs and customs issues, but it looks like the additional costs of "going international" may exceed the value of the product. I think I'll PM him and see if he has a better handle on what the additional costs would be.
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11-16-2018, 01:52 PM | #12 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
The .33 mfd cap was designed more for the type of OEM coils used than it was for the type of distributor. If a person is using a modern can coil then the lower capacity might be better for it. The Sencore LC101 is a very good tester for caps but man are they expensive. Even a used one is up there and a person doesn't even know if it works or not. I have an old Heath Kit C3 that I still use on occasion.
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11-16-2018, 02:02 PM | #13 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Yep, caps go with coils. My partner and neighbor (and friend of over 40 years) is a retired EE and he is the electronics expertise behind this venture, He has acquired just about every kind of test equipment there is over the last 50 years. I take his word for the electrical end of things.
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11-16-2018, 02:40 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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11-16-2018, 03:39 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Quote:
we have more experience with coils, condensers and water pumps then all the people combined who post on this site. We have 3 Ford~Heyer strobe machines that all Ford dealers used to test a lot of the equipment on the old Fords. The condenser test part tests parts like I described. The hot condenser, ohm meter test is reliable. People send condensers with their coils for Skip to test, he does the "finger" test I described and they all work when installed. Skip has been doing this for 20 years. Find me a customer who is not satisfied. G.M.
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11-16-2018, 04:17 PM | #16 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
And there is your reason.
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11-16-2018, 06:22 PM | #17 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
This is not a thread looking for a "poor man's condenser test". It is about trying to develop a better way of doing things. As such, I take "GM's" remarks as contrary to the purposes of this thread. What are you guys going to do when some 32 year old executive at NAPA decides that the IH-200 condenser doesn't fit with their marketing plans and drops it (or worse, decides to change to an inferior version made off-shore).
I am still offended by his response given the original purpose of my thread. It sounds like someone is getting touchy because a "new guy" is impinging on what some people consider to be "their turf". Sorry guys, it's time for some new blood here. |
11-16-2018, 08:25 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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I suggest that you create an 'Ignore List' and place those who offend you on it. By doing this you will no longer see their posts and therefore you will no longer be "offended" by them....
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11-16-2018, 09:35 PM | #19 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Notice I said "his response". "GM" has a lot of knowledge and experience that benefits us all, and I would hate to deprive myself of the benefit of it on account of a mere "turf war".
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11-16-2018, 10:06 PM | #20 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
I bought one of Tubman's cans last year, but haven't used it yet. Moved to Oregon and have not made the change yet. Still working on the house so car is not getting a lot of use. Am using the Bosch Coil and it works fine with my Napa condenser.
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11-17-2018, 03:54 AM | #21 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
I run both Tubmans Cap and his tachbox and they work great.
Most people don´t realize the time and money involved in developing and testing a new product...all my respect to Tubman for taking on projects like this to give the rest of us a quality product with support and a person we know that stands behind it. |
11-17-2018, 09:44 AM | #22 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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For anyone that graduated 5th grade English & Composition, it should be clear as mud that Tubman was not seeking a "back yard" method for testing capacitors. The above quote comes across as yet one more of George's insultingly-distasteful self-promotions to keep the "Skip and G.M." water pump and coil business out there in front of the 'peanut gallery'. DD |
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11-17-2018, 11:25 AM | #23 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
I'm having a difficult time understand the true purpose of this post.....
Is it supposed to be a discussion on field testing condensers, a sales pitch on a product, or a bashing contest for some members who respond here?
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11-17-2018, 12:01 PM | #24 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Nothing was said by G.M. that was offensive or insulting!
SNOWFLAKES!!! I hope Ryan chimes in here....
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 Last edited by petehoovie; 11-17-2018 at 12:09 PM. |
11-17-2018, 12:19 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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To "petehoovie" : I will single you out and tell you that your post is way out of line, off topic, and only serves to inflame others. I am for open discourse, so I'm not putting anyone on an "Ignore" list. You, however, can feel free to add me to yours. I will now proceed to my real world test, and will probably not revisit this thread until I have some real world results to announce. I suggest everyone else move on as well. |
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11-17-2018, 03:37 PM | #26 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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11-17-2018, 07:13 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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11-17-2018, 09:06 PM | #28 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
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11-18-2018, 07:55 AM | #29 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Dennis, I'd volunteer since I already own one of your .22mfd. units, but my '41 will be up on blocks for a while I address the brakes,shocks,wiring,King pins and a myriad of little things. I'll look forward to the results of the testing.
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11-18-2018, 08:21 AM | #30 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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Well, here's the part of that that DOES NOT make any sense. G.M. suggests SELLING the pieces with a MONEY-BACK guarantee. If the capacitors don't fail, Denny will never know about it, nor will he be able to research and test the 'un-failed' capacitor(s). Secondly, who really wants to PAY FOR (as in G.M.'s suggestion) a not-inexpensive electrical component that is admittedly unproven and still under development? Denny's (Tubman) deal is way mo-better right off the bat, as he's gonna GIVE (as in FREE) a capacitor to the guinea pig guy(s) for the purpose of hopefully gaining 'real world' test info. I'm having a hard time understanding where the confusion is in Tubman's very first post at the top of this thread. DD |
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11-20-2018, 02:37 PM | #31 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Most people are going to read this post and not have a clue about condenser differences, including me. I found this really interesting. I've replaced literally thousands of points and condensers at my job over thirty-years, as most mechanics did back in the "points" era. Probably a couple sets every day while doing routine maintenance. But I never knew that different condenser values effected the quality of the spark and the life of the points.
The old-timer mechanics (WWII era mechanics) did not like replacing the condensers. One of them told me you are more likely to install a "bad" new condenser than replace a bad one. I just thought he was being lazy. Damned if did not happen to me right after he told me. We had received a whole batch of bad Motorcraft condensers. I tried getting them from different sources and they were all bad no matter what store they cam from. I finally had to order in some Standard condensers. This is the basics we were all taught back then as mechanics. We were not taught the entire process that's occurring that an Electrical Engineer would need to know to design an ignition system like Tubman is doing. The basics we were taught was when the points open you want the current flow to stop "instantly" to collapse the fields in the coil. The condenser is connected in parallel to the points. When the points begin to open there is a small air gap being created. The voltage will build up and jump the gap before it can stop. Its like running towards a cliff and not being able to stop instantly. With a condenser connected to the points its easier for the current to flow into the condenser than it is for it jump the point gap. Its always going to go to wherever the least resistance is. This all happens almost instantly at the "speed of light", in millionths of a second. If the current were to jump the gap it would take metal from one side of the points to the other, like a welder spark transfers metal, and you end up with "burned points" I've been reading up on condensers since reading this post. I had no idea the coil and condenser were "tuned" together to produce the ideal spark and maximum point life. Its way more complicated than I realized. I "borrowed the info below from another site. It explains why Tubman needs test vehicles. They are going to need to be driven thousands of miles to see if his 30 microfarad condensers are "tuned" to the original helmet distributers coil. This 30 microfarad condenser could produce a better spark and increase point life. It might be a better choice than what was available in the 1930s. There is no way to know until its been on the road for awhile. The condenser is rated as a function of microfarads. Most breaker point ignition systems employed a condenser of .20 to .32 microfads. When breaker points are found with deep pits and craters, the condition is usually repaired by replacing the condenser. When a crater is developing in the ground point, this being the positive point, a condenser of lesser capacity is required. Should a crater be in the moving member of the breaker points, a condenser with more capacity is usually called for to improve contact life and ignition performance. |
11-20-2018, 02:50 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
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12-02-2018, 10:28 AM | #33 |
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Re: Condenser test "guinea pig" wanted
Holey Moley! What's wrong with Tubman trying to develop a better mousetrap?
Good for Tubman. When you're broke down on the side of the road and you install one of his condensers (AND it works) there will be no complaints. |
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