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Old 07-11-2018, 08:07 AM   #41
Mike V. Florida
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

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Originally Posted by TomballMottershaw View Post
Hi Mike V. Florida,
re: $3000 for brake parts... Mikes' has "most parts" for $2280....

I guess you have not rebuilt or viewed the video's available on A brake jobs.
there are a lot more parts to a brake rebuild job than the 4 corners.
pedals, linkages, cross shaft, front link arms are $100 each...
not to mention E-brake parts.
& for Mikes deal:....you have to ship your 4 "cores" back to him too: another $200

so if you budget $3000... you will make your budget, that's success.

... and the $2280 does not include shipping... that's normally +15% of the cost.

but $5000 for brakes is cheap, compared to have your head pushed into the dash via the hole in the steering wheel, and legs around the gear shiftier.
... as most of our health insurance only covers some stuff, after $10,000... of ER bills.

The goal it to drive them and stay alive:
Just make sure your brakes can lock up your tires.... and practice panic stops, at speed so you know how well our car performs.
& if you won't do it for your own safety... please, to reduce my insurance costs & make it easier on your loved ones, wear a seat-belt.
So your idea of restoration is the replacement of every part with new? You don't believe in restoring any part? That's one way of doing it.

I like to take things apart and only replace and repair what is needed. How often do the sheetmetal backing plates need to be replaced, the metal shoes, etc.

There are several ways to do a restoration,
1) do all the work yourself
a) replace just what is needed
b) replace everything you can with new

2) provide the labor and farm out what you cannot do

3) send it with instructions on the level of restoration out and pick it back up in a few years.

It is my personal opinion that 3000.00+ for restoring brakes is a waste of money, others may not think the same way.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:36 AM   #42
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

I have followed this thread for awhile but purposely stayed out of it not to taint it from a professional POV, however after reading some of the comments above I will interject a few thoughts based on personal experience.


1) I generally just shake my head when I hear/read someone that says "You can buy one cheaper than you can restore one for.". What I have found counters that, and while that remark may seem logical from the outside looking in, I can point you to quite a few people that have found saying that not to be true for them. More often than not, most "restored" cars that are available on the market have been grossly patched with most of the hidden areas of the vehicle overlooked. Even listening to people here sharing their experiences, it seems that rarely does anyone purchase a restored car that does not require work to correct things that should have been restored the first time. Often times those 'overlooked' items turn into lots of $$.

For example, how many 'restored' Vickys do we find that have shiny paint and clean upholstery over the top of deteriorated or brittle wood? By the time the new owner realizes the time & expense to have the wood replaced on his 'restored' car, he quickly begins to realize that buying a 'restored' one is not always cheaper. The same applies to many other facets of the restoration where something was wire brushed and repainted without properly restoring that component.


2) Next, most restorers (-including most Fordbarners) have no idea of how many hours it takes to restore a Model-A to a 'driver level' or even a fine-point level. I am not saying this to be mean or intend it as an insult however if we are truthful with ourselves, most people cannot even give an accurate answer for how long (-within 1 minute) it takes for them to drive to work much less a complete restoration. Even my shop has difficulty in accurately forecasting and estimating the correct time on each task even with all the experience we have, ...simply because no two projects ever require the same amount of labor to complete the task.


3) With regard to the insurance company, Bob simply needs to educate them on why his vehicle is worth more than $45k. To begin with, he is establishing a replacement value, and I doubt anyone can quickly find anyone willing to sell a replacement Victoria in the exact quality (-same exact components restored) for $45k. If Bob must find someone to make the repairs to return it to the condition it was just prior to his claim, then it does not take very many hours of professional labor to 'eat up' that $45k.

Now where this gets complicated is differentiating quality and placing a value on that difference. I am going to use Greg's car mentioned above as a comparison. From my own experiences, having a car score 488 vs. the ones that score 500 points is not just a $500 or $1,000 difference in costs or value. Scoring 488 is a great accomplishment and is not to be taken lightly however it is also very possible that those final 12 points could easily cost a thousand dollars per point to obtain, --or likely even more! My point is, it is the entire vehicle that establishes the value and not just the items on the scoresheet. Using the wood infrastructure mentioned above as an example, this is not evaluated in T/C judging however it would/should be when establishing a value of a vehicle, ...or when determining restoration/replacement costs. From my experience I will tell you that 190A wood kits can generally suck straight out of the box and because of the poor joint fits, they generally do not offer the same structural integrity as what the original wood did. This is not good for a show car however it is even worse for a driver level car that is intended to be driven. I can also offer that for us to cut, shape, fit, and install that new, correctly fitting wood in a 190A will generally take in the 175-200 hour range, plus materials (wood, screws, expendable items such as blades, drills, etc., & glue). You then need to place a $$ value on that work because we are not comparing apples-to-apples when comparing a replacement vehicle that has old wood to one that has been correctly restored. Labor costs in this country are already expensive, and are rising. These costs are already affecting restoration costs no matter whether it is for the hobbyists purchasing new parts, -or for the professional restorer that must pay a fair wage to his craftsman to do a task. Either one of these costs greatly affects the money that must be spent on a restoration. Ultimately, these costs also establish the value of a restored Model-A, and the bigger problem is that most Model-As are not truly restored, but instead are 'repaired & repainted' and passed off as restored.


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Old 07-11-2018, 10:40 AM   #43
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

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Professional paint job by a good shop in the SF Bay area will be close to $20K if they do all of it with modern technology and correct colors. (Plus or minus big numbers)
Ouch. I've heard anything associated with the SF area is big bucks!!

Interesting thread here. Makes me think of the cars that Marshall has come across in his travels that were 'restored' that he has tried to make right. Some pretty roughly 'restored' cars running around out there many of them outright dangerous.

I guess, in retrospect, I'm thinking of the 'fun factor' involved. Fine Point cars are really cool, I love seeing them, but they don't fit my budget as I have a number of hobbies to attend to not just Model A's. Any hobby from guns to petroliana to coins to golf to horses to boating to 60's Muscle Cars to about anything out there, takes preemo bucks if you want to really get involved and go all the way. Therefore I guess I fall into the fun-to-have-a-solid little driver Model A Ford that is pretty much original in appearance but is never going to be on the cover of Model A News or The Restorer, and that is OK with me. You can spend some money on them as your budget allows to keep them safe and running well and go from there. And have fun with the car.

But, if you have that car that Grandad bought new, been in your family for many years, maybe Uncle Bud was sitting in the car the morning he heard of the Pearl Harbor attack and then he went off and joined the Marines etc. by all means spend the money to keep it up to a high level and keep the car in a controlled environment garage that's the key. And, by all means don't let it sit in a Morton building with a dirt floor.

And one other very important thing here on this, at least so far here in the USA we aren't being screwed with big taxes like our friends in Australia and New Zealand are. That adds a lot to the expense.

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Old 07-11-2018, 11:09 AM   #44
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

All of these posts show why the original question is impossible to answer.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:31 AM   #45
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

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So your idea of restoration is the replacement of every part with new? You don't believe in restoring any part? That's one way of doing it.

I like to take things apart and only replace and repair what is needed. How often do the sheetmetal backing plates need to be replaced, the metal shoes, etc.

There are several ways to do a restoration,
1) do all the work yourself
a) replace just what is needed
b) replace everything you can with new

2) provide the labor and farm out what you cannot do

3) send it with instructions on the level of restoration out and pick it back up in a few years.

It is my personal opinion that 3000.00+ for restoring brakes is a waste of money, others may not think the same way.

Mike, we are definitely friends so us disagreeing is not going to change anything but you are mixing up definitions that are the very root of what has caused this whole issue.


In some ways, your 1a above is really is NOT 'restoring'! I think most would call that Repairing. Restoring is returning each component back to a standard by which it was originally manufactured. Replacing just what is needed is generally not returning all items back to correct specifications.


The other thing that you may not be aware of is when you price what it costs to completely bring the entire braking system back within factory specifications, -factoring in parts (-including the cast-iron drum conversion) & professional labor for rebuilding all components, you will find it does approach $3k very quickly.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:46 AM   #46
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

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Ouch. I've heard anything associated with the SF area is big bucks!!

Interesting thread here. Makes me think of the cars that Marshall has come across in his travels that were 'restored' that he has tried to make right. Some pretty roughly 'restored' cars running around out there many of them outright dangerous.

I guess, in retrospect, I'm thinking of the 'fun factor' involved. Fine Point cars are really cool, I love seeing them, but they don't fit my budget as I have a number of hobbies to attend to not just Model A's. Any hobby from guns to petroliana to coins to golf to horses to boating to 60's Muscle Cars to about anything out there, takes preemo bucks if you want to really get involved and go all the way. Therefore I guess I fall into the fun-to-have-a-solid little driver Model A Ford that is pretty much original in appearance but is never going to be on the cover of Model A News or The Restorer, and that is OK with me. You can spend some money on them as your budget allows to keep them safe and running well and go from there. And have fun with the car.

But, if you have that car that Grandad bought new, been in your family for many years, maybe Uncle Bud was sitting in the car the morning he heard of the Pearl Harbor attack and then he went off and joined the Marines etc. by all means spend the money to keep it up to a high level and keep the car in a controlled environment garage that's the key. And, by all means don't let it sit in a Morton building with a dirt floor.

And one other very important thing here on this, at least so far here in the USA we aren't being screwed with big taxes like our friends in Australia and New Zealand are. That adds a lot to the expense.





Jeff, as I pointed out above, the price of quality labor is on the rise, and the cost of business overhead has risen too. Its not just in the SF area. Shops in larger metropolitan areas now must charge $90-100 an hour to be able to show a profit.


While it might seem like they are getting rich, I suggest you look at what other shops or professional services must charge to pay their bills and stay in business.


On a Model-A. when you break-down all of the different sheetmetal components that must be painted, ...and then add up the straightening time, the priming & blocking time, the refinishing time, and the polishing time for a professional quality paint job on each of those components, it is easy to have 4 weeks or 160 man-hours in producing a paint job. Now price-out what good quality primers and paints are plus materials, and you will find $1˝-2k for just materials. Total all of that and tell me what the price is.




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Old 07-11-2018, 12:13 PM   #47
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Default Re: Cos of A Restoration

Interesting topic to me its just another hobby and cheaper than fishing ? Price a new fishing Boat that will lose value faster than the out going tide . I have a pile of receipts on my coupe project I just need to live long enough to finish . My cash outlay so far is only about $ 6000 but I trade and barter another $6000 I might have a driver .
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:29 PM   #48
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It seems to me that some of us are letting our ego’s get in the way of being fair to our hobby.

I would venture to say that the majority of Model A Ford’s still on the road are not fine point restored cars. They are maintained or restored to many different levels. Each of us being very proud of our antique car or cars.

Is a car that has had its engine, complete running gear, paint, and interior redone not considered restored to some level?

We own a 1929 Sport Coupe that has never been completely apart but has won many local car show awards. It is not in anyway a fine point car, but it drives like new and looks to most people like a well restored car.

As many have mention. You can spend big bucks for a fine point restoration, if that’s what you are looking for. Or you can spend and do what you can afford, if that’s what you are looking for.

I drive the grand kids out for ice cream. I enjoy the waves and nice car comments. I just like owning a car that I have worked on since I was 12 years old.

Why do we have to pick other people’s cars apart?

Spend what you can afford, you will be proud of and enjoy owning your Model A. Enjoy.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:32 PM   #49
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It seems to me that some of us are letting our ego’s get in the way of being fair to our hobby.

I would venture to say that the majority of Model A Ford’s still on the road are not fine point restored cars. They are maintained or restored to many different levels. Each of us being very proud of our antique car or cars.

Is a car that has had its engine, complete running gear, paint, and interior redone not considered restored to some level?

We own a 1929 Sport Coupe that has never been completely apart but has won many local car show awards. It is not in anyway a fine point car, but it drives like new and looks to most people like a well restored car.

As many have mention. You can spend big bucks for a fine point restoration, if that’s what you are looking for. Or you can spend and do what you can afford, if that’s what you are looking for.

I drive the grand kids out for ice cream. I enjoy the waves and nice car comments. I just like owning a car that I have worked on since I was 12 years old.

Why do we have to pick other people’s cars apart?

Spend what you can afford, you will be proud of and enjoy owning your Model A. Enjoy.


OK, it seems this is becoming skewed and off point. I just re-read what has been written above, and I personally don't think anyone is saying anything about comparing Fine-Point to Drivers as to which is better, -nor is anyone suggesting any percentage number of Model-As still on the road are Fine-Point or Driver, ...and I do not see that anyone is picking other people's cars apart. This topic is about replacement costs with insurance companies and the costs associated with performing a restoration.




One question I will ask you based on your comments though, ...what is your definition difference between repairing and restoring? In other words, we all can read/understand the definitions of those two words in the dictionary and how they differ in meaning however please give us your opinion of when someone is repairing a Model-A vs. when they are restoring a Model-A.




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Old 07-11-2018, 03:22 PM   #50
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To me restoring some thing is bring it back to like new condition.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:27 PM   #51
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I just had a couple of older guys look at a really nice coupe I have for sale.I have no idea how long ago it was done,but the laquer paint is holding up nicely.Some cracking in the black reveals where the roof meets the body.This is head and shoulders above presentable,it is still a beautiful car,both on top and underneath.They were coming about 60 miles to look at it so I was pretty thorough on description.I told them about the paint and the first words out of their mouths were,yep,it needs 20 grand in paint.They agreed I was honest in describing it to them,but they wanted absolute perfection for $15000.They actually tried to tell me it was only worth $5000. 10 years ago the appraisal was $16,500,and the car has improved since.They said they got the figures and how to use them as a negotiating point here on the Fordbarn.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:35 PM   #52
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I just had a couple of older guys look at a really nice coupe I have for sale.I have no idea how long ago it was done,but the laquer paint is holding up nicely.Some cracking in the black reveals where the roof meets the body.This is head and shoulders above presentable,it is still a beautiful car,both on top and underneath.They were coming about 60 miles to look at it so I was pretty thorough on description.I told them about the paint and the first words out of their mouths were,yep,it needs 20 grand in paint.They agreed I was honest in describing it to them,but they wanted absolute perfection for $15000.They actually tried to tell me it was only worth $5000. 10 years ago the appraisal was $16,500,and the car has improved since.They said they got the figures and how to use them as a negotiating point here on the Fordbarn.
Did they buy the car?
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:06 PM   #53
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They didn't buy it.I know some say they would throw them out,insult them,but some day they just may come back with money for something else.There was a man here that exports to Hungary,he offered $12000.Those two old boys thought he was just foolish.With A's and British motorcycles I've found I have to drive a stake in the ground and say,that's it.That's the price.Look it over good,do and say whatever you want,but that is the price.The sight of cash doesn't excite me.Those guys thought I was going to sell cheap because they had cash and they felt I should sell to them cheap.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:09 PM   #54
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They didn't buy it.I know some say they would throw them out,insult them,but some day they just may come back with money for something else.There was a man here that exports to Hungary,he offered $12000.Those two old boys thought he was just foolish.With A's and British motorcycles I've found I have to drive a stake in the ground and say,that's it.That's the price.Look it over good,do and say whatever you want,but that is the price.The sight of cash doesn't excite me.Those guys thought I was going to sell cheap because they had cash and they felt I should sell to them cheap.
Good for you! They don’t make them anymore. Enjoy.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:10 PM   #55
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I guess I haven't kept up with the cost of restoring a car.

Keith and Brent both related that a paint job is $20K today with preparation work done properly. I was thinking ten grand would catch it I see I'm behind the curve.

SO, my next step is to re-evaluate my Agreed Value insurance with Hagerty and I'd better bump that up. The latest issue of The Restorer had two articles about Model A's being totalled, one article dealt with the big California wild fires. The other was the big floods in Houston last year.

I'm glad to have learned something here I really hadn't thought much about lately..........
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:35 PM   #56
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Keith,
thanks for sharing your sales story with us. I think most everyone can relate and it is enjoyable to hear Im not the only one having gone through the same story over and over.
My favorite line when getting low balled on a sale is, bring me ten of them for that price and Ill take them all.


Usually brings silence and a little bit of shock.


ALso, Brent- all well said. There is a huge difference between 90% and 100% and sometimes that means double the price. Not everyone realizes that.


you can buy a good guitar for 90% enjoyment at a price of 2000. Or you can buy a great guitar for 100% enjoyment and it might set you back 5000.


a #2 car or a #1 car-huge difference...... but both are real nice.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:24 PM   #57
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Webster’s definition of “Restore”.

“To put back into existence or use”. Restore.

If you restore cars for a living, you might have a different view of what should be called restored.

If you do it for a hobby or just because, you also might have a different view of what should be called restored.

I again will say that none of us should let our ego’s get in our way. For a large percentage of us, it’s just a hobby. Enjoy.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:41 PM   #58
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I think a lot more A.s are fixed and painted, than restored.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:12 AM   #59
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Quote:
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I just had a couple of older guys look at a really nice coupe I have for sale...
...they wanted absolute perfection for $15000.They actually tried to tell me it was only worth $5000. 10 years ago the appraisal was $16,500,and the car has improved since.They said they got the figures and how to use them as a negotiating point here on the Fordbarn.
Probably the same type of people who want me to sell them a car with $2,500 radiator for $50 because that's what they paid in 1959, and my car will "need a whole new interior because they saw a wavy stitch in a seat and the door had a mark on it."
I have words for those people but none of them are polite words so i won't use them here.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:52 AM   #60
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Webster’s definition of “Restore”.

“To put back into existence or use”. Restore.

If you restore cars for a living, you might have a different view of what should be called restored.

If you do it for a hobby or just because, you also might have a different view of what should be called restored.

I again will say that none of us should let our ego’s get in our way. For a large percentage of us, it’s just a hobby. Enjoy.

Or mine says; : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state.

As a professional restorer, I do exactly what my customer asks me to do. I don't see where anyone's ego is involved in this conversation however I do believe people should be honest in their descriptions. Society has taken the stance where making misleading statements is acceptable. Just as in Bob's case, other that have misused the term 'restoration' has cheapened the hobby as a whole. I am pretty sure we all know that Bob is truthful when he tells us he has restored his car and has $60k in it, yet because others have stated theirs is restored, it has mislead the public into believing a restored Model-A can be done for less money.
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