Confirmed, VIN problem that has always bothered me. What would you do?

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

I purchased a May 1929 Tudor sedan back in 1973, from a neighbor who bought it from Kansas, in 1968.

When I bought it, it had a VIN that started with an 'AA'. The current motor number is not that number.

I imagine that sometime in Kansas, the motor was switched and the title was changed to be the rebuilt number, which was probably that AA number.

The date on the firewall is 5-2-29. The AA number is a late June 29 number.

The car has been in and out of the family, but I am the current owner, again. The incorrect VIN has always bothered me.

I recently found some cracks in the frame that I had to have welded, so I had to raise the body. I decided to look for the VIN and like I thought it starts with just an A and it is an early May 29 number.

I called the DMV to see what I would need to do to get the VIN corrected on the title. They said that I would need to bring the car in, with the body lifted for them to inspect it. If there was a problem, I might have to make an appointment to have the California Highway Patrol inspect it. I went ahead and made an appointment over the phone, but it is 6 weeks from now.

Like most VIN's there are a few numbers that are not all there, but a reasonable person could make an educated guess as to what they are.

I had hoped to take the Tudor to the Orange County Model A pancake breakfast on April 22nd, but the body will still be raised. I do have 1929 truck that I can probably take instead, but it is disappointing.

What would you guys do? Would you just leave things alone, live with the error, reassemble it and take it to the breakfast. Or would you take the risk that everything will be fine and attempt to get it corrected?

Neil

[1930-Pickup]

I'm sort of in the same boat. I'll fix the title if and when I need to take the body off the frame. This is not a serious enough problem for me to get neurotic over it. I'm neurotic about too many other things as it is.

[Dave Castle]

I would leave well enough alone, u may end up with more trouble from the CHP than u intended.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Since the car has been registered in California since the 1970's I would change the number on the engine to match the registration that has been used all these years. I would not trust the government to accept the change in the engine/registration number. In my most humble opinion, you would be opening a can or worms that you might well not be able to close. Put the car together and go to the breakfast. Ernie

[daveymc29]

I'm with 44. Have yet to meet a "reasonable person" that works for DMV in CA. That said, I had a 56 Lincoln Continental that had a bunch of names on it and only one signature. I went to the window and the nice lady told me I needed to have them all sign. I told her they are all out in my car and I'll get them to sign it Used two pens and wrote what looked like the three names not signed and went back in. Ten minutes later drove away and a couple of weeks later the pink showed up in my mail. Now I just go to AAA with whatever it says on the registration and pink slip, except if the car comes from out of state. Then its DMV and hope. So far, so good.

[Y-Blockhead]

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Having dealt with the California DMV numerous times in the past as well as the CHP, I would drop the body back down on the frame as fast as possible and deny that I ever called them if anyone asks. You don't need the added stress in your life. PM sent...

Hope to see you at the OCFMAC Pancake Breakfast!!

[Chris Haynes]

I am starting the same process on my '30 Tudor now. It is registered by a 4 digit number stamped on the engine after the original number was ground off. When I discover the frame number I will stamp in on the inside edge of the frame where it can be seen by removing the floorboard. My experiences with DMV verifiers and the CHP have always been good, mostly because I know what I am doing and what to and not to say.
NEVER EVER TELL THEM THE CAR WAS BUILT FROM PARTS.

[burner31]

Make an appointment? Six weeks?
Dealing with the California DMV?
The problem, as well as the solution is obvious

[WHN]

If you are never going to actually have the orginal engine that came with the car, why worry?

Your cars numbers might match, but who are we kidding? It will never be as built again.

Once registered and/or titled your home free.

[marty in Ohio]

We have a member of our "A team" who has a problem with his title. The VIN on the 1930 title only has six digits. It's worrying him to death. The suggestion of the rest of the "team" is to leave it alone. If it ain't broke - - - -
Marty

[3.6rs]

I thaink it's too late to leave things as is, because you already have an appointment and they know you have "a problem with the vin umber". So there is a file.
That's what I think, and that's what would happen over here.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by marty in Ohio

We have a member of our "A team" who has a problem with his title. The VIN on the 1930 title only has six digits. It's worrying him to death. The suggestion of the rest of the "team" is to leave it alone. If it ain't broke - - - -
Marty

Really “GOOD” free advice.

[ronn]

always amazed when fellas are "bothered" by " incidentals" of life.....
a bother to me would be living in Africa and starving...........

leave it alone, or if it bothers you that much, sell it and buy one where all of the ducks are lined in a row.

[chap52]

It's registered and you have a title and can drive it??? Who is going to stop you and lift the body to check the numbers? You have done nothing wrong and used due diligence in registering it. If California declared it OK, who can be uncomfortable with that?

[SeaSlugs]

yup - leave stuff alone.

[JBill]

I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about these things. I had a '30 pickup where the engine number didn't match the number on the title, and during restoration I found that the frame numbers had completely corroded away. When I sold it I explained these things to the buyer who bought it anyway. I do still wonder, though, how he got a new title and plates. Back in 1979 when I had finished restoring the truck, which started out as a literal basket case of parts, a state policeman came to check it out, and never even looked at the engine number and surely didn't even know there was supposed to be a frame number. But the new title was issued with the number, again, that did not match anything at all on the vehicle. I probably should have made up one of those ID plates with the title number and riveted it to the firewall.

[TJMack]

Originally Posted by ronn

always amazed when fellas are "bothered" by " incidentals" of life.....
a bother to me would be living in Africa and starving...........

leave it alone, or if it bothers you that much, sell it and buy one where all of the ducks are lined in a row.

I like this response the best. :-)


I bought a car in Florida that had a title from Pennsylvania 40 years old. The vin on the title was not even like any other vin number. It was apparently something that Pennsylvania just made up at the time. I went to the Florida DMV and got instructions to have a sheriff deputy come out and verify that the number was on the car someplace. I had an engraved tag made up for $6 and riveted it to the front of the seat frame. The deputy signed off on the requisite form and I was on my way. I couldn't care less.

[jhowes]

Now here is a wrinkle to all of this. I am building an a from the scrap that is lying around and in ny state they just check the number against a database to see if that number is already being used. So do i use the frame number or the engine number? Either will work as long as they don't find someone else with that number like a hot rodder that needed to register his car. I wish i could just ask the dmv if either number is in use but that does not seem to be an alternative. I can make the two numbers become one with my magic once i decide which to use.

[WHN]

Having registered Model A’s in New York. There not a title state for cars this old.

My recommendation would be to use the motor number. It can be easily seen once your car is together. I would not use frame number and than have a different engine number. This could cause real problems for next owner or even you if down the road wanted to register car in another state.

Ideally frame and engine should match. After 90 years this can be a hard thing to do.

If you have any old paperwork, registrations, insurance policy’s, what every, that show number your going to register car under. Bring them with you.

I don’t know where you live in New York, but if you can, pick a small DMV office.

I have never had a problem registering a Model A in New York State.

[DanK]

You don't need to go to the DMV for a vin verification. There are organizations that can come to your house and do it. That's how I did mine when the body was off.

http://www.asapvehicleverifiers.com/...onsServed.html

[Chris Haynes]

If your car is registered by an incorrect number and it is stolen how do you report it? If it is recovered how do you prove it is yours? If you car is in a major wreck and you insurance company spots a number different than whats on your policy do you think they will cover it?
Take the time to expose the number and register it by it.

[Bob C]

I agree with Dan and Chris. If you use and independent verifier these people are working for you not against you like the DMV.

Bob

[eagle]

If the car is registered with a VIN, then take that VIN and engrave it somewhere on the frame or body. It is perfectly legal to do so and will help the next owner having to deal with a car without an attached VIN. All problems solved except the AA issue, that one you may need to just get over!

[Jerry in Shasta]

Find a local Model A restorer or hot rod shop and find out who they use to verify VIN numbers. They shoued under stand the engine number and frame number differences.

Normally California registers motor cycle by engine number and all other vehicles by frame number. A good Model A verifier can document the differences to DMV

I agree the DMV has gone to the IRS school of charm.
JB

[kimeccles]

My car title WA state is the engine#. That engine sat before I got it and when I cleaned to rebuild it had several bad cracks and was not worth rebuilding. During my recent body off effort I found the correct frame number and it was different too, so this had at least two engines.

I took a picture of my frame number and printed it, the "new" engine stamped so it now matches the frame number, and NO WAY in my lifetime is that body coming off again!

I am keeping the old block and will show all the documentation to WA highway patrol (required here to re-title) and hope for the best.

Good luck.

If necessary I will bring the old block for them to see as well. That should be good enough, but I have not done it yet.

[TerryH]

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A good friend had this problem many years ago, where the engine number did not match the California title. He was very worried about insurance, and he asked, and was told they needed to match. So he decided to pull the engine, and have it re-stamped to correspond to the title. While it was out, he had the engine refreshed. In the end, he was very relieved to have it done.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by TerryH

A good friend had this problem many years ago, where the engine number did not match the California title. He was very worried about insurance, and he asked, and was told they needed to match. So he decided to pull the engine, and have it re-stamped to correspond to the title. While it was out, he had the engine refreshed. In the end, he was very relieved to have it done.

I guess he didn't realize that it is a felony to alter or remove a vehicle serial number.
In CA it is section 10751 of the vehicle code.

[jrelliott]

Had a clear Pioneer Title to my '28 fordor from MN, but when I went to register in AZ, they made me pull the body off the frame and could not find the frame number as was painted over when chassis repainted.(Big mistake as saw the number before restoration). Even with the title and engine number that matched the AZ Highway Patrol said as far as he was concerned it was a stolen vehicle as could not see the frame number and had to get a bonded title. I should have taken stamps and repaired the number on the frame. Make your frame number match the title you have.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by jrelliott

Make your frame number match the title you have.

Once again this is illegal.

[chl]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Once again this is illegal.

you're in Ca. just tell the DMV it's
a mexican car in the country illegally, they will give the car sanctuary and documentation.

[ronn]

you're in Ca. just tell the DMV it's
a mexican car in the country illegally, they will give the car sanctuary and documentation.


NICE! thanks for the smile!

[JBill]

I'm wondering, do other cars of the Model A era (like the despised Chevrolets!) have better vehicle ID systems than just an engine number and an inaccessible frame number, numbers which, in any case, might not match because of an engine change? Or in the case of the frame number, be illegible due to corrosion?

[ronn]

JBill- I have a 31 chevy and it also uses the engine number. that was standard practice
before WW2.

However the Chevys had the vin tag on the pass side sill as you opened the door. In most cases, they were kicked off from entry into the car, within a few years.

[Bob Bidonde]

Do not change the VIN!

My Victoria had a 1929 engine number on the registration when I bought the car. During the car's restoration, I found the original VIN stamped into the frame. I photographed the VIN on the frame and finished restoring the car. I also stamped the original VIN on the rebuilt engine in the car. The 1929 engine was sold.

When I tried to register the car in New York, the DMV gave me a case number and had me take the car to a local DMV investigator. The investigator wanted to take the car away for having an altered VIN which is against the law. The investigator also wanted me to take the body off so he could see the original VIN on the frame. He also wanted proof of where the 1929 engine went. The DMV did not get my car, the body did not come off, but it took me a year and a half to get it registered.

Today my Victoria is registered with a new VIN and a new engine number imposed by the DMV. Oh by the way, the DMV denied my use of year of manufacture plates because of the registration fiasco.

[eagle]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

I guess he didn't realize that it is a felony to alter or remove a vehicle serial number.
In CA it is section 10751 of the vehicle code.

You are giving incorrect information. The engine number is not the VIN. The engine number originally MATCHED the VIN but the frame number is the true VIN. You can legally restamp the engine, or stamp the VIN number on any surface of the car you want. Where illegalities come in is if you alter or remove the original stamped VIN. In the case of the model A , that IS the frame number. Engines are not titled, the car is.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by JBill

I'm wondering, do other cars of the Model A era (like the despised Chevrolets!) have better vehicle ID systems than just an engine number and an inaccessible frame number, numbers which, in any case, might not match because of an engine change? Or in the case of the frame number, be illegible due to corrosion?

A friend of mine had a '34 Chevy pickup with no visible numbers. He bought a new body tag with the number he wanted on it from the net. He attached this squeakily clean brand new tag on his rusty firewall and took it to DMV The verified the number without question.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by eagle

You are giving incorrect information. The engine number is not the VIN. The engine number originally MATCHED the VIN but the frame number is the true VIN. You can legally restamp the engine, or stamp the VIN number on any surface of the car you want. Where illegalities come in is if you alter or remove the original stamped VIN. In the case of the model A , that IS the frame number. Engines are not titled, the car is.

Let me be more specific. It is illegal to remove of alter ANY MANUFACTURERS IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.
I beg you to show me where any state allows you to remove, alter or replace a number.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=10751.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

The only reason for a law that says you can't change a number is related to identifying a stolen vehicle. But it is only one piece of evidence and it alone does not prove that the vehicle is stolen. If there is any prosecutor alive who would bring a case to court based on this one piece of evidence has to be crazy, crooked, or really hungry for a statistic.
In this case the car has been in the family for 45 YEARS and any theft before that would be beyond the statute of limitations for prosecution.
I would say the odds of you being arrested are beyond worry. A judge would throw the case out of court. Even in California.

[WHN]

I guess that I have been very lucky registering cars.

Never! Never, have I had anyone from DMV ask to see the car I was registering to check numbers.

I have always used at least the bill of sale or title, along with the sellers last registration, a photo copy of sellers drivers license. Never had anyone question anything. Including cars from both Connecticut and New York which are both no title states for cars the age of Model A’s.

[denniskliesen]

Neil, there are a couple of places you can have this taken care of that won't take 6 weeks. One of those places is in Hawaiian Gardens, Fleet Registration Services Corp.. 562-548-3500, the lady's name is Audrey Welch. Stone throw from you. I used a place called Quick Plates in Huntington Beach in the past. Quick Plates was a dream. The gal asked me what number do I want on the title. Ha!! It was for a pickup that had a mess of numbers I bought out of state. Both of the places I mentioned will show up at your house for a VIN inspection and get you going. No reason you won't be able to make it to the Pancake Breakfast.

Dennis

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

Dennis,
I had actually talked to Audrey before I started this post. I have used her vin inspection service in the past. She said she can only do vin inspection for cars that do not already have a title. She is the one who told me I would need to contact the DMV or CHP.

[pooch]

Jeezuz, I just went to Pluck's site and picked out a number that suited me,

Went and registred it, no probs,

I figured it was better odds at winning the lottery than that number I picked being on record as someone else's.

If i fronted up at the desk and they said HEY, this number is already registered, my stock answer would be , well that is how I bought it .

Then go back and pick out another number. and go back and say I bought another engine or another chassis whatever.

[walls]

I understand wanting to follow the rules, but think it through.
There were no “VIN”s back then.
That idea does not register to the average government worker.
They do not solve problems.

You could apply for a new title with the frame number through the title service.
Forget fixing yours.
If you’ve decided you have to do this, I’d look into that.

[DanK]

Originally Posted by Neil Mylar LakewoodCA

Dennis,
I had actually talked to Audrey before I started this post. I have used her vin inspection service in the past. She said she can only do vin inspection for cars that do not already have a title. She is the one who told me I would need to contact the DMV or CHP.

Try a different service. Having a title should not be a constraint. I used a service and I had an out of state title.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by DanK

Try a different service. Having a title should not be a constraint. I used a service and I had an out of state title.

Same here, out of state title. I'd try Quick plates in Huntington Beach. We have a member in our club that wanted to correct the same problem you have. Been months and still no title.

[1930-Pickup]

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Buy a parts car or chassis with no title.
Register it at the title service company with the number that you want.
Use the parts car title now as the title for your good car.
Take the title that you have for your good car now and make it 'fade away'.
Sell the parts car without a title, just the way you bought it.

[asapguy]

Like the old saying "don't kick a sleeping dog" I have a late 1930 CCPU which I bought in Long Beach Calif. in 1976 from the 3rd owner. The Calif. title had # LB73XXXX not a # which started with an "A". I had always assumed an eng. swap and the LB stood for long block. Until reading an article in the Restorer about the restoration of a 1930 fire truck which was assembled at the Long Beach Ford plant on Ford Island. The article mentioned it had an LBXXXXXX # which stood for Long Beach assembly plant. I have owned my PU for 40 yrs. now & not having a title with # starting with an "A" has never been a problem.

[Chris Haynes]

Buy another car to get a frame number?????? I am going through the same thing right now. I am simply going to bite the bullet and lift the body and pull the splash apron to expose my frame number. Do it right so you don't have to do it over.

[Phil Brown]

Only two things fore sure about the Calif. DMV offices
1. Going to be frustrating
2. Going to cost you some more money

I don't think that I would mess with it ... just go drive it and enjoy

[Chris Haynes]

If the CA DMV says you have to go to CHP there is no getting around it.

[Dale]

Last year I bought a 1929 ccpu from calif, the calif owner had bought it from nev, it had an erroneous number on the title, he took it to one of the title service companies near sacramento to get it straightened out. He had to lift the body some so the cal hwy patrol could verify vin, then do a calif title search, then cal hwy patrol installed a calif vin plate with the original ford number on the drivers door post. I don't know the cost, but I am sure that it was not quick.
Colorado mv accepted the calif with no problem.

I traded a merc for the a and used a colo even trade bill of sale & neither of us had to pay any sales tax

[1930-Pickup]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Buy another car to get a frame number?????? I am going through the same thing right now. I am simply going to bite the bullet and lift the body and pull the splash apron to expose my frame number. Do it right so you don't have to do it over.

Yes !!!!!!!!
Did it, not with an A though.
It was easy.
Cost nothing because the other car was sold.

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

Thank you for your posts.

I appreciate all your advice, even the person who felt the need to lecture me that what was bothering me was trivial compared to starving people in Africa.

[ronn]

sorry Neil,

wasnt trying to lecture you.

we only have so much time on earth and many small things are incidental to me.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by ronn

sorry Neil,

wasnt trying to lecture you.

we only have so much time on earth and many small things are incidental to me.

Well said!

Bin there, done that, veteran, father, grandfather, business owner, retired, Model A owner, “if it isn’t broken, don’t try to fix it”.

You learn things in life when you are to old to use the knowledge. Enjoy.

[KCTA Chris]

I live in Mo. It's bad here.
Last year I had my vintage boat to the HP inspection 4 times, In the end I located the previous seller, drove across KS. and had to make a new bill of sale. Boat, trailer and outboard require separate paper for bill of sale. My boat never had a title or needed one, and EVERY outboard even if from the 1930's must have a title even if they never were issued one from the manufacturer. Icing on the cake: the young worker mad a mess riveting the metal ID tag to my restored mahogany wood boat, why not wood screws? "Because thats how it says to affix it in the manual."???

My '55 Chevy involved a judge declaratory statement because the title in Texas was motor number and Missouri uses body number on that year.

My '34 3 window chassis came from CA. He kept the body and title, had his new mfg. frame stamped to match and was legal in CA. Missouri told me to sue the title because in our state each title stays with the frame. Missouri issued a new title with existing frame numbers so now there are two '34s with same number.

Had an Inspection officer once told me swap meet frames do not exist in the state, luckily he has retired. I'm not even getting into my model "A" mess, I'm about to swap the chassis and the paperwork and process is overwhelming. The HP office and DMV don't follow the same guidelines therfor most answer involve a Judicial Statement ordering one agency to issue for the other. I'm a 100% stand up taxes paid legal guy and what I have to go through in this state is absurd. I see why historical documents are a trend in Missouri.

[Bikerider58]

Wonderful CA DMV can be a pain. I have gone through the VIN / registration grinder 3 times. 2 old motorcycles and the A. Both bikes required DMV referral to CHP inspection, the A was DMV only, but a wait for 2 different inspections on the same trip.

Corrected the year for the A.
Corrected year and got CA registration approved on one bike.
Kept DMV from mandating a frame tag on the other bike.

It is your car, if getting it corrected makes you happy, it is well worth your effort. Just do not get hope up that it is an easy or fast processes. Prepare your documents and your story and go for it.

[TerryH]

When I bought my Model A 14 years ago, from a man in New York, it came with a current registration from New York, but no actual title. It did have a rubbing of the frame vin, which matched the engine. A good friend, who buys older cars, told me to take it to the AAA office in Newport Beach, where they had one man, whose specialty was titling older cars. One visit with him, with my car, and some forms to fill out, and I had my California title. Wonderful not having to deal with the DMV!

[Neil Mylar LakewoodCA]

Ronn,
Thank you for your follow up comment.
I'm sorry, too.
I was probably being too sensitive.

_________________

By the way everyone, I did cancel the DMV inspection appointment.

However, I liked Bikerider58's comment about 'if getting it corrected makes you happy, it is well worth your effort', so I will definitely give it more thought.

[silversink]

an engraved number on a tag with ford script on it mounted to the firewall and painted over and dirtied to look like the rest of the firewall worked great for me. they asked where the number was and I played stupid and suggested looking at the tags and they were so proud of themselves that they discovered it----was done in ten min.s

[Bleedblue4life]

So what happens if you go get your vin on the title changed to the number on the frame and someone with your original motor in another car is using that for his vin....does it flag his vehicle as stolen because he has your engine that is supposed to be in your frame?

[Bleedblue4life]

Ohio requires an inspection for any car bought out if state. Since a lot of model a's titles do not match the engine number my dad tends to not buy model a's from out of state just for this reason. The slant windshield we just bought has a 29 engine number in the car but the title reads a late 31. Since the engine is being rebuilt its getting stamped with the title number to be easy for the next guy.