The Ford Barn

Branded · 06-01-2019, 08:30 AM

Can anyone tell me what I have. D 21 4 11 See picture. Thanks Dave

19Fordy · 06-01-2019, 09:05 AM

Probably a foundry casting number of some type.
Would be neat to know how to decipher it.

Perhaps it's the ID number of the pattern used
to make the casting. Wonder if there's another block with that same "batch" number and manufacturer casting codes.

Here's an interesting article about this.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...Trademarks.pdf

JSeery · 06-01-2019, 09:39 AM

Some photos of the rest of the block would help. If the hole drilled nearer the centerline is original one would guess it was a wartime block. It would at least be war years or later.

Brian · 06-01-2019, 04:00 PM

I agree; wartime military block

Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:39 PM

Pictures

Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:41 PM

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Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:42 PM

Another

Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:49 PM

From the rear

Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

I agree; wartime military block

So is that a good or bad thing?

Branded · 06-01-2019, 04:58 PM

I’ve just noticed my 1940 block is flat with raised exhaust ports this block is curved between the exhaust ports.

Brian · 06-01-2019, 05:12 PM

So is that a good or bad thing?

Neither good nor bad...it is just the timeframe that engine was made in. Does it have the 'raised' intake surface?

Branded · 06-01-2019, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

So is that a good or bad thing?

Neither good nor bad...it is just the timeframe that engine was made in. Does it have the 'raised' intake surface?

Yes the intake area is raised just slightly. I’ve done some research and googled VanPelts and I’m thinking it’s a 41-42 block. Raised intake area and block curved between exhaust ports.

Kube · 06-01-2019, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Branded

Can anyone tell me what I have. D 21 4 11 See picture. Thanks Dave

Almost ALWAYS, a raised sequence on a casting is the cast identification. Your D21411 is just that, a cast number.
Numbers that are cast IN TO the casting are typically indicative of model, serial, etc.

Branded · 06-01-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kube

Almost ALWAYS, a raised sequence on a casting is the cast identification. Your D21411 is just that, a cast number.
Numbers that are cast IN TO the casting are typically indicative of model, serial, etc.

Mac also mention this on his write up.

The foundry would also place what were probably "lot" or "production" numbers in the castings on all blocks. These were usually a small group of letters and numbers cast on the top of the bell housing....right next to the vertical surface of the back of the block. Unfortunately, any records of these numbers are long gone and they provide no clues as to the particulars of any engines.

rotorwrench · 06-01-2019, 06:46 PM

A lot of the wartime Canadian blocks use the oil port toward the center on the back of the block for an oil cooler or a set up with a cooler and filter. Wartime US blocks will too if it was set up for a T16 Universal Carrier. A person has to check the return port configuration to make sure there is no blockage there. The war time oil systems were different than the civilian set ups.There are some good threads about those systems if a person does a search here or on google. I know this is a 24 stud engine but I wonder if it is a 221 or a 239 CID engine. Externally, it's kind of hard to tell. The 29A engine is a lot like the 59A engine of 1946 civilian production but there are some differences.

tubman · 06-01-2019, 08:10 PM

I think some more research is required. I have spent a lot of time in the "Corvette World", where casting numbers and dates can make or break a car. Invariably, a casting number is part of the mold, so it shows up without the impressions of screw heads, which this one has. Whenever we see numbers with the screw heads next to them, they are date codes. It's only logical; casting numbers would be part of the mold, but date codes would be a plate periodically attached to the mold with screws. In the "Corvette World", date codes are usually a single digit for the year, a letter for the month, and a digit or two for the day of the month, with a shift code. If the Ford Foundry was trying to keep strict track of the quality control process, they may have used hours, instead of shift. In this context, The code shown could be interpreted as D (April), the 21st (day), of 1944, at 11 o'clock. With most agreeing that this is a wartime military block, this makes perfect sense to me.

I am no expert on early Fords, but I am with the manufacturing quality control process (at least at GM). For too long, everyone in the flathead world has been dismissing these (obviously) attached numbers of having no meaning. I, for one, believe the whole thing needs to be revisited.

rotorwrench · 06-02-2019, 09:50 AM

Most will state that they are basically an unknown since there is no information to the contrary. Many had a date code stamped into the intake deck along with inspection stamps and the like after machining operations were completed. The outer shell was the first thing set up in the core box so the numbers would have been fixed the the pattern for the shell. Wartime castings may have had date codes and/or contract codes or the like per the foundry practices of the time.

tubman · 06-02-2019, 11:49 AM

I think I just provided information to the contrary. I think a survey on these blocks would show that these are date codes, whether required by the government or some other entity. The key here to me is whether there are screw head impressions or not. Quality control has always been important in any manufacturing process, and if defects start to show up. the first thing the manufacturer would want to know is when it started happening. I reiterate, I believe this needs more research. If there is some information to be had from this casting numbers, we should do our best to determine what it is.

Just because all the experts have been saying for years that these number are not interpretible (is that a real word?) is not reason enough to disregard them (at least not for me) when there may be another logical interpretation.

RobR'35 · 06-02-2019, 12:10 PM

Ford was stickler on quality and records.
Some place there has to be knowledge on this. Whether it be stamped numbers, cast numbers.
First thing that comes to mind is the Benson Research center in Dearborn.
Have all the documents that there are been cataloged?
Are they just in files to be discovered yet?
I've never been there but have heard about it. Fellas that worked in the Rouge in these areas where the stamping (inspections) took place and the cast line.
I realize many of these folks aren't with us any longer but...... Someone knows something somehow.
It's an interesting subject for sure.

cas3 · 06-02-2019, 10:17 PM

robr35, this topic has never been solved. i have personally never been to dearborn to do any research, but many folks more devoted to the research of our old fords than me have tried. the general thoughts are these records were only of interest to the foundry, not a blueprint or any other thing worthy of record to the ford parts system. not an expert here, just my conclusion of seeing this topic come up many times

06-01-2019, 09:05 AM	#2
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,925	Re: Block Casting Numbers Probably a foundry casting number of some type. Would be neat to know how to decipher it. Perhaps it's the ID number of the pattern used to make the casting. Wonder if there's another block with that same "batch" number and manufacturer casting codes. Here's an interesting article about this. http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...Trademarks.pdf Last edited by 19Fordy; 06-01-2019 at 09:18 AM.

06-01-2019, 09:39 AM	#3
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Block Casting Numbers Some photos of the rest of the block would help. If the hole drilled nearer the centerline is original one would guess it was a wartime block. It would at least be war years or later.

06-01-2019, 04:00 PM	#4
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Block Casting Numbers I agree; wartime military block __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

06-01-2019, 04:58 PM	#10
Branded Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Yorkville Indiana Posts: 396	Re: Block Casting Numbers I’ve just noticed my 1940 block is flat with raised exhaust ports this block is curved between the exhaust ports.

06-01-2019, 05:12 PM	#11
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Block Casting Numbers So is that a good or bad thing? Neither good nor bad...it is just the timeframe that engine was made in. Does it have the 'raised' intake surface? __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

06-01-2019, 06:46 PM	#15
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Block Casting Numbers A lot of the wartime Canadian blocks use the oil port toward the center on the back of the block for an oil cooler or a set up with a cooler and filter. Wartime US blocks will too if it was set up for a T16 Universal Carrier. A person has to check the return port configuration to make sure there is no blockage there. The war time oil systems were different than the civilian set ups.There are some good threads about those systems if a person does a search here or on google. I know this is a 24 stud engine but I wonder if it is a 221 or a 239 CID engine. Externally, it's kind of hard to tell. The 29A engine is a lot like the 59A engine of 1946 civilian production but there are some differences. Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-02-2019 at 09:32 AM. Reason: punctuation

06-01-2019, 08:10 PM	#16
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,304	Re: Block Casting Numbers I think some more research is required. I have spent a lot of time in the "Corvette World", where casting numbers and dates can make or break a car. Invariably, a casting number is part of the mold, so it shows up without the impressions of screw heads, which this one has. Whenever we see numbers with the screw heads next to them, they are date codes. It's only logical; casting numbers would be part of the mold, but date codes would be a plate periodically attached to the mold with screws. In the "Corvette World", date codes are usually a single digit for the year, a letter for the month, and a digit or two for the day of the month, with a shift code. If the Ford Foundry was trying to keep strict track of the quality control process, they may have used hours, instead of shift. In this context, The code shown could be interpreted as D (April), the 21st (day), of 1944, at 11 o'clock. With most agreeing that this is a wartime military block, this makes perfect sense to me. I am no expert on early Fords, but I am with the manufacturing quality control process (at least at GM). For too long, everyone in the flathead world has been dismissing these (obviously) attached numbers of having no meaning. I, for one, believe the whole thing needs to be revisited. Last edited by tubman; 06-02-2019 at 06:15 AM.

06-02-2019, 09:50 AM	#17
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,425	Re: Block Casting Numbers Most will state that they are basically an unknown since there is no information to the contrary. Many had a date code stamped into the intake deck along with inspection stamps and the like after machining operations were completed. The outer shell was the first thing set up in the core box so the numbers would have been fixed the the pattern for the shell. Wartime castings may have had date codes and/or contract codes or the like per the foundry practices of the time.

06-02-2019, 11:49 AM	#18
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,304	Re: Block Casting Numbers I think I just provided information to the contrary. I think a survey on these blocks would show that these are date codes, whether required by the government or some other entity. The key here to me is whether there are screw head impressions or not. Quality control has always been important in any manufacturing process, and if defects start to show up. the first thing the manufacturer would want to know is when it started happening. I reiterate, I believe this needs more research. If there is some information to be had from this casting numbers, we should do our best to determine what it is. Just because all the experts have been saying for years that these number are not interpretible (is that a real word?) is not reason enough to disregard them (at least not for me) when there may be another logical interpretation. Last edited by tubman; 06-02-2019 at 12:04 PM.

06-02-2019, 12:10 PM	#19
RobR'35 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Upper Peninsula, Michigan Posts: 604	Re: Block Casting Numbers Ford was stickler on quality and records. Some place there has to be knowledge on this. Whether it be stamped numbers, cast numbers. First thing that comes to mind is the Benson Research center in Dearborn. Have all the documents that there are been cataloged? Are they just in files to be discovered yet? I've never been there but have heard about it. Fellas that worked in the Rouge in these areas where the stamping (inspections) took place and the cast line. I realize many of these folks aren't with us any longer but...... Someone knows something somehow. It's an interesting subject for sure.

06-02-2019, 10:17 PM	#20
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,568	Re: Block Casting Numbers robr35, this topic has never been solved. i have personally never been to dearborn to do any research, but many folks more devoted to the research of our old fords than me have tried. the general thoughts are these records were only of interest to the foundry, not a blueprint or any other thing worthy of record to the ford parts system. not an expert here, just my conclusion of seeing this topic come up many times