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Old 12-02-2019, 06:11 PM   #41
Pete
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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All it takes to make Horespower is air, and lots of it. I guess Pete found away.
I don't take credit for a lot of this stuff. There were a LOT of people before me that I had to learn from.
I only hope the ones I taught so far can develop the science further.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:23 PM   #42
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"And now we return you to our regular scheduled programming......"
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:17 PM   #43
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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I don't take credit for a lot of this stuff. There were a LOT of people before me that I had to learn from.
I only hope the ones I taught so far can develop the science further.






Pete not to worry some of us are reading and listening and looking forward to gaining more HP. As well as passing this on to those who can continue developing what you and others have proven works. Its not easy to do and sure it may cost a lot but heck its one hell of a great way to have fun and go very fast with such an old piece of iron. Now wheres that catalog on dyno's i gotta get me one.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I don't want this to stop on a sour note. I trust Pete and his past accomplishments account for the power he makes from a Flathead. The fact that I and a few others haven't , is not his problem. My problem is: I can't get enough air into the block to do it. Take a few early engines for example. Back in the mid 60's we had the Ford 260 and 289. A stock HP260 made 240 hp and the 289 made 270. Gm's 283 made 275 with a 4 bl and 283 with FI Mos of these engines were running 9:1 Cr or less. How many cubic feet of air does it take to make one HP?? I can't find a definitive answer, so I'll take the lowest of 2 CF. so 200 hp requires 400 cfm. Allot of engines make alot of power on that kind of ail a 44o Chrisler has a 465 CFM carb And we cant het hallf that much air into a flathead with out a blower. Consider Fuel 87 ocy has more BTU of power in it than 110 race gas, and Alcohol has even less.. Now I may have some of these Facts wrong, but not by much. Did you know they make an old 350 chevy block, so you can bolt on the LS heads. Interesting. Remember it the journey not the destination.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:15 AM   #45
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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I don't want this to stop on a sour note. I trust Pete and his past accomplishments account for the power he makes from a Flathead. The fact that I and a few others haven't , is not his problem. My problem is: I can't get enough air into the block to do it. Take a few early engines for example. Back in the mid 60's we had the Ford 260 and 289. A stock HP260 made 240 hp and the 289 made 270. Gm's 283 made 275 with a 4 bl and 283 with FI Mos of these engines were running 9:1 Cr or less. How many cubic feet of air does it take to make one HP?? I can't find a definitive answer, so I'll take the lowest of 2 CF. so 200 hp requires 400 cfm. Allot of engines make alot of power on that kind of ail a 44o Chrisler has a 465 CFM carb And we cant het hallf that much air into a flathead with out a blower. Consider Fuel 87 ocy has more BTU of power in it than 110 race gas, and Alcohol has even less.. Now I may have some of these Facts wrong, but not by much. Did you know they make an old 350 chevy block, so you can bolt on the LS heads. Interesting. Remember it the journey not the destination.
Not flathead related, but to your point of LS motors. My friend has a 6.2L from a junk yard that runs on E85. It has a cam change and some other cheap improvements, BUT it's got a massive turbo. I forget the boost number, but it's close to 20 lbs.

That motor makes 750 hp at the rear wheels tuning it from a laptop. Driving it (it's in a Mustang), it spun the rear wheels when planked at 70 mph.

The reason I mention it is the CFM and air aspect of making power.

The turbo adds another 250-300 HP to the overall numbers.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:39 AM   #46
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I like the photo Alanwoodieman posted of his dad in post #32 showing him measuring engine speed with a handheld gauge and the load scale in the background. Probably smoking a Camel or Lucky Strike.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:15 PM   #47
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

A lot of really great info. I feel very lucky to read about the history of making more power from the flathead from those who actually did the work in the day and from those who continue to do so. Keep it coming for those who are new.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:51 AM   #48
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

A lot of people were interested in this subject, wish we had better answers.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:11 PM   #50
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
Whats needed is a competition run similar to the Engine Masters Competition. Builders square off following a set of rules who then build Flathead engines their way then all engines are tested at the same location and on the same dyno to see which engine comes out on top. After all engines have been tested the winning engine is taken apart for all to see exactly how it was done. I can see it now since it only takes me about 8 months to build a record setting combination i figure building for this type of competition would only take about 12 months.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:54 PM   #51
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
A dyno is ONE way to get SOME answers but definitely not the last word.
Engine dyno comparisons are for TV shows.
Seldom you will find 2 vintage engines running at the same track on the same day that are worth comparing. There just are not that many around.

Lap times on a circle track or top speed and ET on a drag strip are far better ways to tune.

Picture this, you just spent 40K on a new engine that developed XXX hp on the dyno yet your buddy from down the road timed in 3 tenths faster than you and can pull you a car length on the straights. He has no more money or savvy than you do but he DOES have 2 weeks of on track tuning that you don't have.

Computer programs that calculate hp, ET and top speed etc are quite accurate
if you have good data to input.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:09 PM   #52
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Running the same engine with no changes on more than one dyno can produce some differing results.



R
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:46 PM   #53
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Racing has very limited, comparison value. Weight and chassis set up has more valve, in racing.

In road or oval racing, it is how fast you get out of a corner (both weight and chassis set up), that effects any speed on a straight section. In drag racing, it's weight and how fast you get hooked up and the overall gear ratio at the light.

Terminal speed, both in drag racing and road/circle track racing can give a idea of HP but, aerodynamics also play a big part, at speeds over 100 mph.

Racing has to many variables to do direct comparisons.

The EMC trials is the best way. It tests HP per CI, Average HP and Max torque and HP on the same dyno.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:40 PM   #54
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

An EMC engine would be a very poor racing engine.
They are built to do ONE thing very well.
I would put any of the top 5 World of Outlaws 410's up against an EMC engine.

Yes, racing has many variables and that is why it is a good way to compare engines.
You can see how they compare over the period of a season.
The best engine will almost always end up with the number 1 on the tail of the car.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:20 PM   #55
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Pete, I hate to disagree with you and maybe I should have said EMC type of testing.

Race cars work in a limited rpm range, usually 1500 to 2500 rpm. Are you trying to tell me a engine that has a high peak HP number is going to beat a engine that has a higher average HP, within that rpm range?

What I'm always interested in is HP per CI and average HP in the range that I have to work in. Average HP, has a lot more to do with cam selection.

Chassis set up can be much more important than HP. In drag racing, it takes a huge amount of extra HP to beat a car, if you can't get it hooked up and loose even a 1/2 sec off the line. It also takes a huge amount of extra HP to catch a car on the straight, if you come off the corner 10 mph slower. You can't compare those engines and the one with the higher HP ain't going to come in #1.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:48 PM   #56
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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Pete, I hate to disagree with you and maybe I should have said EMC type of testing.

Race cars work in a limited rpm range, usually 1500 to 2500 rpm. Are you trying to tell me a engine that has a high peak HP number is going to beat a engine that has a higher average HP, within that rpm range?

What I'm always interested in is HP per CI and average HP in the range that I have to work in. Average HP, has a lot more to do with cam selection.

Chassis set up can be much more important than HP. In drag racing, it takes a huge amount of extra HP to beat a car, if you can't get it hooked up and loose even a 1/2 sec off the line. It also takes a huge amount of extra HP to catch a car on the straight, if you come off the corner 10 mph slower. You can't compare those engines and the one with the higher HP ain't going to come in #1.
Whatever you say.
I am not giving out customer information for the sake of a stupid internet discussion.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:23 AM   #57
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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Do you remember the HP, peak rpm for the 425 Potvin?
Peak numbers were 203 HP at 5200 rpm, 256 lb/ft torque at 3200 rpm.


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Thanks for filling the displacement in. May I indulge you some more and ask what a "small Isky cam" is? MAX-1? I ask you as it is quite similar to my last build.
The camshaft was indeed the Isky MAX #1.


Ted Eaton.

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Old 12-06-2019, 10:03 AM   #58
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Thanks for getting back to us Ted. It's good to have some information for benchmarks.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:28 AM   #59
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

That's a pretty mild cam, compared to say a 1007B or 400 jr, These cams I', familiar with in competition, However the best cam was an Erson D410 to bad that one is unavailable right now. Then we could consider the roller cams for the big buck people.. I'm impressed.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:05 AM   #60
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.
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