Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-16-2018, 10:53 AM   #1
Garagekulture13
Senior Member
 
Garagekulture13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 179
Default Won't run without choke (solved)

I just picked up a 1931 sedan Saturday. The carburetor was pouring gas from what seemed every seal. I just rebuilt the carb and no leaks. However the car will not run unless I keep the choke pulled slightly. Only thing odd on the rebuild was I had to use to washers under the float to get it to it's 5/8 settings. The car had been sitting for over a year. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Garagekulture13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 11:04 AM   #2
700rpm
Senior Member
 
700rpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,892
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Where are running your gas adjusting valve? It should be about 1/2-3/4 open to start, and about 1/4 open to run when warmed up. The filter on the side of the carb should also be more vertical, but that shouldn’t affect performance.
__________________
Ray Horton, Portland, OR


As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.
700rpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-16-2018, 11:07 AM   #3
WHN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,815
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Quote:
Originally Posted by 700rpm View Post
Where are running your gas adjusting valve? It should be about 1/2-3/4 open to start, and about 1/4 open to run when warmed up. The filter on the side of the carb should also be more vertical, but that shouldn’t affect performance.
You beat me to it. I was just writing the same thing.
WHN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 11:26 AM   #4
Garagekulture13
Senior Member
 
Garagekulture13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 179
Default Re: Won't run without choke

When you say 3/4 do you mean 3/4 of a turn? Just tried with no luck. Here is a link to the video I just made of me working the choke. You can hear the engine inacordance with the choke. I couldn't figure out how to post the video on here so here is the video on YouTube. https://youtu.be/EvcFTxcw10c. Not sure if this helps.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Garagekulture13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:10 PM   #5
WHN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,815
Default Re: Won't run without choke

I turn ours one complete turn to the left when starting car cold. Once car starts, I turn back to the right to half turn open until car warms up. Than close a little more depending on how car is operating.

Remember when you close valve, (turning to the right) do not tighten down hard. Just lightly close valve, turning to the right. I close valve every time we shut car off.
WHN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:17 PM   #6
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
The video really helps. It sounds like you have a very lean mixture. Partial choke is richening it up.

For the GAV, you gently close it and note where the little indicator is pointing on the knob face. From there, open 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn back open (CCW) for a rich starting mixture. As it warms up, you can slowly close it (lean it out). If you go too far, the engine will stumble; just open it back up a touch from there.

How fresh is the gas? People argue with me about this all the time, but I have seen many a Model A and Model T not want to run on old gas. Put in fresh gas and it runs great.

After that, you have 2 options to investigate that could be giving you a very lean mixture:

1) A clogged jet or passage in the carb that you just rebuilt, not allowing enough fuel in to keep it running. This can often be compensated for by opening the GAV. (Not a permanent fix, but to diagnose it.) Try blowing backwards through al of the jets with carb cleaner spray, see if any trash comes out. Make sure the spray actually makes it out the other end of the passage.

2) A massive vacuum leak at the intake manifold that is letting too much air into the engine that the carb does not know about, is not putting any fuel into. Look at where manifold bolts to engine. Nuts tight? Gasket good? Look for a cracked manifold. Check where carb bolts to manifold.

.
__________________
Jim Cannon
Former MAFCA Technical Director
"Have a Model A day!"
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:41 PM   #7
SeaSlugs
Senior Member
 
SeaSlugs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central, IL
Posts: 3,968
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA View Post
The video really helps. It sounds like you have a very lean mixture. Partial choke is richening it up.

For the GAV, you gently close it and note where the little indicator is pointing on the knob face. From there, open 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn back open (CCW) for a rich starting mixture. As it warms up, you can slowly close it (lean it out). If you go too far, the engine will stumble; just open it back up a touch from there.

How fresh is the gas? People argue with me about this all the time, but I have seen many a Model A and Model T not want to run on old gas. Put in fresh gas and it runs great.

After that, you have 2 options to investigate that could be giving you a very lean mixture:

1) A clogged jet or passage in the carb that you just rebuilt, not allowing enough fuel in to keep it running. This can often be compensated for by opening the GAV. (Not a permanent fix, but to diagnose it.) Try blowing backwards through al of the jets with carb cleaner spray, see if any trash comes out. Make sure the spray actually makes it out the other end of the passage.

2) A massive vacuum leak at the intake manifold that is letting too much air into the engine that the carb does not know about, is not putting any fuel into. Look at where manifold bolts to engine. Nuts tight? Gasket good? Look for a cracked manifold. Check where carb bolts to manifold.

.
I cant tell but is there a gasket between the carb and intake? If not that could be a source. If your unsure get the engine running in any fashion then spray carb cleaner around all these joints to eliminate vacuum leaks. Also be aware the wiper fitting and vacuum wiper itself if equipped.
__________________
1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!
SeaSlugs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 01:38 PM   #8
Garagekulture13
Senior Member
 
Garagekulture13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 179
Default Re: Won't run without choke

There is a gasket between carb and intake. No noticeable cracks. There is a 50/50 mix of new and old gas. Also I checked the wipers as someone suggested. Yup the hose was split. I put a screw in the hose and now it will idle. But if I try to give it gas it does. Also the motor sounds like it has a bad knock.
https://youtu.be/r16d8TkNh1k

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Garagekulture13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:23 PM   #9
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: Won't run without choke

I watched the second video. You have proven that the GAV works because the engine died when you closed it completely and tried to run the RPM up. Leave it open 1/2 turn to 1/4 turn.

Have you checked the point gap and the initial timing? It now sounds like the timing is off. Once the engine starts, move the spark lever on the left 1/2 way down for idle. Always up to start.
__________________
Jim Cannon
Former MAFCA Technical Director
"Have a Model A day!"
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:34 PM   #10
700rpm
Senior Member
 
700rpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,892
Default Re: Won't run without choke

When you get it running right, take a 24’’ dowel or a long screwdriver or an engine stethoscope and see if you can locate the approx center of that knock.
__________________
Ray Horton, Portland, OR


As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.
700rpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 04:11 PM   #11
Garagekulture13
Senior Member
 
Garagekulture13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 179
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Everyone please know I appreciate you all taking the time to help. I work 2nd shift so the battle had to end for the day. However I did notice that the car will start with the timing lever in any position. Not sure if this is normal. There is a Model A cruise tomorrow I plan to visit just to see the cars and get some advice. When I get back from the cruise I will start back on the car. I will check the timing and go from there. Again I appreciate the help and any further help.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Garagekulture13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 04:34 PM   #12
cpf240
Senior Member
 
cpf240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Northern Idaho
Posts: 282
Default Re: Won't run without choke

While you are attending the cruise, see if someone there lives near you. Perhaps they might be able to come over and give you a hand with it.
cpf240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 06:03 PM   #13
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 8,713
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Marco has good timing instructions on his site. http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

Bob
Bob C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 06:25 PM   #14
700rpm
Senior Member
 
700rpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,892
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Please buy and read a couple books on the operation and peculiarities of the Model A before you go any further. At least a get reprint of the original owner’s instruction manual so you get an introduction to how the car should start and run. You will avoid a lot of trouble and headache with just this one simple book. $17 from any Model A parts supplier. You can get one specifically for the late 31 with your type of carburetor.

Also, while your Model A will start with the spark lever in any position, to avoid damaging your Bendix you must start it with the lever all the way to the top. As soon as it fires, pull it down to about 9:00. Driving it too far advanced or retarded will damage your engine and cause overheating. There is much more to the proper operation of Model A, but the Owner’s Instruction Manual will get you started in the right direction.

I am assuming your car is set up in a stock manner and all the necessary parts are properly installed and operational.

Finally, join a local club if you can.
__________________
Ray Horton, Portland, OR


As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

Last edited by 700rpm; 03-16-2018 at 07:20 PM.
700rpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 06:26 PM   #15
TinCup
Senior Member
 
TinCup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok.
Posts: 1,977
Default Re: Won't run without choke

If the passage from the secondary well is plugged it will do the same thing. First time I found this was rebuilding a side bowl carb like this one. This will plug the cap jet. I have heard timing gears make this kind of noise as well. It would be worth it to pull the side timing gear cover and inspect it. Marco's timing diagram is dead on and will take care of your timing. If you have original points once the rubbing block starts wearing it will quickly close the point gap and add to your troubles.

When it comes to carb problems take a few minutes and review the operation of the zenith carb from this excellent site. www.modelabasics.com. Great animations that really show you whats going on.
TinCup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 07:45 PM   #16
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Have a look around your workbench - there may be a venturi hiding there!
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 08:48 PM   #17
Garagekulture13
Senior Member
 
Garagekulture13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 179
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
Have a look around your workbench - there may be a venturi hiding there!
Oh my gosh!!!!!! That's it!!!!! I forgot to put it back in!!! I'm such an idiot. I'll get it in and update everyone. Thanks Synchro909!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Last edited by Garagekulture13; 03-17-2018 at 12:32 AM.
Garagekulture13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 08:51 PM   #18
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garagekulture13 View Post
Oh my gosh!!!!!! That's it!!!!! I forgot to put it back it!!! I'm such an idiot. I'll get it in and update everyone. Thanks Synchro909!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I flatly refuse to say how I knew that!!
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 09:53 PM   #19
Anteek29
Senior Member
 
Anteek29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Santa Maria, CA
Posts: 984
Default Re: Won't run without choke

You get a gold star, Synchro
__________________
Alan
1929 Special Coupe
1941 Pick-Up
1955 Victoria
Anteek29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2018, 12:38 AM   #20
3.6rs
Senior Member
 
3.6rs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Belgistan (formerly known as Belgium)
Posts: 573
Default Re: Won't run without choke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA View Post
How fresh is the gas? People argue with me about this all the time, but I have seen many a Model A and Model T not want to run on old gas. Put in fresh gas and it runs great.
The car was been sitting for "over a year" as can be read.
Last week I started a Willys Jeep that has been stored for more than 16 years ; it started within 2 minutes on the old gas. I also started a few motorcycles a couple of months ago that were sitting 4-5 years, and again no problem with the gas here.
3.6rs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 PM.