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Old 07-18-2021, 09:35 PM   #1
SteveR.
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Default 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I've had my '30 Tudor about 4 years. The first engine a valve seat came loose and destroyed a piston. The 2nd engine I bought used, locally for $1,000, and believe it was a junk engine, it was losing a lot of oil from day 1....took just a few months of driving before something came apart inside...I wrote it off as being a junk engine and didn't investigate, after hearing from someone local that the seller had become known for selling junk.

The 3rd engine I had built by a reputable builder I won't name until I've had a chance to talk to him. Cost was about $3,500. I drove it maybe 1,000 miles. Today something serious came apart inside while driving about 20 mph. A serious, loud knocking, I assume a rod or main, this is a severe knock, not tapping.

If my driving is causing the problem I'd really like to know, but I can't imagine that is the case. I drive on weekends, maybe 15 to 30 miles a week. I don't drive it at full throttle except when needed to accelerate in traffic. Typically I drive 40 to 45mph when traffic is that speed. I've never considered a "B" head or anything similar as I have no interest in more power or driving faster, I just want it to be reliable. I've had it at 50 to 55mph only a handful of times on this engine, I don't drive it at full throttle to take it easy on the engine. I start it with the spark fully retarded, then advance to maybe 70% to 80% of full spark. I don't drive it will the spark fully advanced, even at speed.

What in the world is going on? I'm baffled...I will get feedback from the builder, but if the engines are this fragile I'm thinking about getting rid of the car, but I really don't want to as we thoroughly enjoy it. I see people driving these across the country and there is zero chance I've given my engine more abuse than that in maybe 1,200 miles. I have limited time to keep swapping engines, not to mention the cost, I've spent near $5k and still don't have a good engine.

Last edited by SteveR.; 07-18-2021 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 07-18-2021, 10:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

hmm what speeds are you shifting at? you may be overrevving the engine between gear changes.
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Old 07-18-2021, 10:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I can say the motors are known for being almost Bulletproof. I'm sure there's plenty folks on here that can give you better guidance than me, but I will say don't give up just yet. I would definitely talk to the builder and see what he says. Keep us posted.

I was in Aledo last week, went to the car museum in Weatherford and spent some time with an old friend.
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Old 07-18-2021, 11:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Sounds to me like you have had 2 old engines give out, and 1 rebuilt engine develop a problem. Things happen. Talk to the rebuilder and see what his take on it is. Most would warranty for 1000 miles I'd think. Unlikely you've "wrecked it" by your driving habits.
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Old 07-18-2021, 11:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Rebuilt engines need to be broken in, not exceeding 50 mph for the first 500 miles. In fact, I have an original key tag for a brand new 1929 Model A that reads: "DO NOT EXCEED 50 mph, 1st 500 Mi, 70 mph, 2nd 500 Mi.” Personally, with rebuilt engines in my cars (I’ve owned about 20 A’s since 1961) I drop those mph numbers to 35 and 50, and have never had an engine failure. And those early miles should be driven carefully by varying the speeds from 0 to 35 during driving, not immediately cranking it up to max and taking off.

What did your builder recommend for break in?
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Old 07-19-2021, 12:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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My first engine was done by a reputable builder i broke it in easy, rarely drove over 50 by 3000 miles the rear main came apart --i bought some KRW stuff did my own been trying to break it for the last 35 years, thousands of miles over 60( found it would do 67 on the third day after putting it together), full advance as soon as started, lugging inn third ,riding the clutch for long periods, I have come to the conclusion that there isn't much you can do to "save" a bad job and there isn't much you can do to hurt a good job
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Old 07-19-2021, 03:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Sadly in your case this is just plain bad luck . I have had model As on the road for over 40 years and only had one roadside breakdown .A valve seat insert came loose and broke up in the combustion chamber . Loud knocking as part of the seat was stuck in the piston top . Luckily no harm done just cost me a new valve seat and head gasket . So do not loose faith there is a good long life engine waiting for you out there !!!

John in sunny morning Suffolk County England .
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Steve,

Sounds like bad luck. Have the engine rebuilder have a look at it, as others have advised. Don't run the engine until they look at it. I would just bring the car to him, on a trailer.

If you buy another old engine, take it apart and inspect it before putting it in your car.

Model A's are very durable cars and I doubt that you are doing anything wrong in the way you are driving it, from your description. I have owned 6 and none have had serious issues.
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Your latest failure could be something as simple as a timing gear that lost a couple of teeth. I had one fail last fall and it made a terrible noise. Hope you are back on the road soon.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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Originally Posted by SeaSlugs View Post
hmm what speeds are you shifting at? you may be overrevving the engine between gear changes.
I generally shift 2nd to 3rd at probably half the RPM I'm at when driving 45mph. Similar 1st to 2nd.
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:00 AM   #11
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Default 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

You might consider the ALL NEW “BERTZ 5 main block if you’re going to rebuild. The cost for the kit is reasonable!
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Sorry fat finger!
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Let folks know what happened after the internal investigation. I think all of us have had a turn of events that hit the pocket book before. Hopefully your event there has a silver lining somewhere.

As was already mentioned, model As aren't inherently unreliable but they are getting very old. Time and fatigue takes it's toll. Rework of the bottom end of these engines has to be done correctly and I see a lot of different opinions about what is correct in this day and age.
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I am also on engine number 3 Hopefully this is it... I have over $5,000 in this last one.
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I feel your pain. Don't give up. As you said the first two motors were unknowns so with them anything can happen at any time as you knew nothing about their history. Hopefully you can resolve your issue with the freshly rebuilt motor. As other have mentioned a well sorted motor will last quite a while and will be dependable. You will get there. Do let us know what you find out about the new motor's problem. Hope nothing serious or expensive.
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Old 07-19-2021, 11:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I would venture to say that there a lot of new Model A owners who share your frustrations. Anything to do with engines can turn into a real minefield for the unsuspecting. I think a few rules need to be established before going down that road:

1. Don't rush into changing the engine without consulting with a reputable Model A engine mechanic or someone experienced and knowledgeable--not always easy to find, keep trying until you find someone. Maybe the problem is not as serious as it appears to be.
2. Before buying or rebuilding an engine get several references on the builder. It is easy to get taken in by fancy ads and websites. That happened to some of my friends by one of the supposedly bragged on well known rebuilders--wouldn't stand by their work. Get their warranty in writing. Rebuilds are subject to failure but that needs to be addressed beforehand.
3. Accept the fact that the old car that sold for $500 new 90 years ago can now be expensive to get running and become dependable. Quality workmanship is still the best bargain.
4. Don't give up, slow down and take a break. Hit it again later. Like so many other endeavors, in the end you will take pride in what you have learned and are able to enjoy because you "stuck to it."

I know for you this is 20/20 hindsight but I hope others in your situation or those ready to rush into something they will come to regret can benefit from this.
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Old 07-20-2021, 06:57 AM   #17
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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The 3rd engine I had built by a reputable builder I won't name until I've had a chance to talk to him. Cost was about $3,500.
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I have over $5,000 in this last one.

While this is not directed at Steve in his situation, however many people read these posts from the sidelines. Just so we are all 'singing from the same page of the Hymnal', $3,500 really does not buy a quality engine in this day & time. As an engine rebuilder, what I have come to realize is it takes quality machines, -and a conscientious machinist not willing to cut a corner if the expectation is to produce a quality engine. And I have also learned that quality machinery takes a fist-full of dollars to purchase or restore. Kurt makes a great point above that if you are casting bearings, there are specialty tools that either must be purchased/fabricated, -and then used if there is an expectation of longevity. When you look at old catalogs such as KR Wilson's book, there are many tools they offered that were considered necessary to do the job to original specifications. These tools are rare today and generally fetch big money.

Now granted, there are always those who will say that 'so & so' will build me a short-block for about that money, ...and while I do agree there are some that will, a short-block assembly is really not an engine. It is a portion of an engine. Add in the costs of restoring the peripheral components and the price escalates. Most professional machine shops doing quality work cannot survive on less than $100.00 an hour, -and when all of the steps are tallied in doing a quality rebuild (thermal cleaning, sonic testing, magnafluxing, peening bearings, burnishing bearings, squaring caps, diamond honing with a torque plate, vacuum checking valve seats, checking lifter bores, straightening & peening crankshafts, straightening rods, balancing reciprocating components, etc.) it honestly cannot be done for $3,500, ...so logic says that to meet that price point something(s) must be omitted. How many omitted steps can be done before the engine is no longer considered a quality engine??


My advice to Steve is remove the engine and take it back to the rebuilder, -even if it is outside of the warranty period. Let the rebuilder determine the cause of failure, and possibly the reason for the failure. At that point Steve can determine what is the best option for him regarding his engine.
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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While this is not directed at Steve in his situation, however many people read these posts from the sidelines. Just so we are all 'singing from the same page of the Hymnal', $3,500 really does not buy a quality engine in this day & time. As an engine rebuilder, what I have come to realize is it takes quality machines, -and a conscientious machinist not willing to cut a corner if the expectation is to produce a quality engine. And I have also learned that quality machinery takes a fist-full of dollars to purchase or restore. Kurt makes a great point above that if you are casting bearings, there are specialty tools that either must be purchased/fabricated, -and then used if there is an expectation of longevity. When you look at old catalogs such as KR Wilson's book, there are many tools they offered that were considered necessary to do the job to original specifications. These tools are rare today and generally fetch big money.

Now granted, there are always those who will say that 'so & so' will build me a short-block for about that money, ...and while I do agree there are some that will, a short-block assembly is really not an engine. It is a portion of an engine. Add in the costs of restoring the peripheral components and the price escalates. Most professional machine shops doing quality work cannot survive on less than $100.00 an hour, -and when all of the steps are tallied in doing a quality rebuild (thermal cleaning, sonic testing, magnafluxing, peening bearings, burnishing bearings, squaring caps, diamond honing with a torque plate, vacuum checking valve seats, checking lifter bores, straightening & peening crankshafts, straightening rods, balancing reciprocating components, etc.) it honestly cannot be done for $3,500, ...so logic says that to meet that price point something(s) must be omitted. How many omitted steps can be done before the engine is no longer considered a quality engine??


My advice to Steve is remove the engine and take it back to the rebuilder, -even if it is outside of the warranty period. Let the rebuilder determine the cause of failure, and possibly the reason for the failure. At that point Steve can determine what is the best option for him regarding his engine.
What Brent is saying here is the main reason I am constantly telling people with high mileage good running engines to leave them alone.

There is no short cut to quality work. You get what you pay for!

Good luck with you engine.
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I would like to second what Artimus said in post #11. But, by the time you add the pistons and other parts it will cost $5,000. Many parts can be taken off the old engine. In the end you will end up with a bullet proof engine. I am saving up my money for one.
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Old 07-20-2021, 08:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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I would like to second what Artimus said in post #11. But, by the time you add the pistons and other parts it will cost $5,000. Many parts can be taken off the old engine. In the end you will end up with a bullet proof engine. I am saving up my money for one.
Neil, may I ask how you came to that figure??



From my experiences, you are not comparing Apples-to-Apples as one comes assembled and one comes in pieces with assembly required. One includes all the components and one requires additional components.

Also, IMHO it is HIGHLY unlikely that used parts taken from an old engine are going to be in a high enough quality to make an engine bullet-proof!

Now I will be the first to agree that cover castings and an oil pan are likely suitable candidates after a thorough cleaning, but what else are you suggesting re-using that will make your total cost around $5k? Exactly which components listed below are you thinking you can re-use?

  • The flywheel?
  • The flywheel housing?
  • The oil pump drive?
  • The oil pump?
  • The camshaft?
  • The valves, springs, retainers, & keepers?
  • The valve guides?
  • The tappets?
  • Head studs and fasteners?
  • The cylinder head?
  • The water pump?

My list above could likely go on however my point is that most hobbyists honestly do not have the tooling nor the skillset to restore/refurbish the above components. This, they will still need the services of a machine shop. Neil, this is NOT intended to take away from Terry's product as it is a well executed piece however IMO you are not portraying an accurate comparison at that price-point.
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Old 07-20-2021, 11:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

For an Apple-to-Apples comparison, compare the New Engine Kit (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) to similar refurbished original parts.

Compare the new engine's 16 pressure-fed bearings to the original gravity and dipper system, compare the new 2.00-inch rod journals to original 1.50-inch rod journals, compare 5 main bearings to 3 main bearings, compare 8 crankshaft counterweights to none, compare the radial lip rear main seal to the slinger, etc.

Compare the fact that the "New Engine Kit" is manufactured in a modern factory that manufactures 100's of thousands of engines per year to a small shop with antiquated equipment.

Compare the fact that the "New Engine Kit" is made from materials that have improved over the last 90 years.

Several new engines are running. One has about 7000 miles after being driven across the USA twice. Another has about 3500 miles after being in the Great Race (car #35).

See www.modelaengine.com for more information including engineering details and testing abuse (3100 RPM for 6 hours on an engine that was just assembled), and the hill climb.
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Old 07-20-2021, 12:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

What Terry and others have said, a quality rebuild cost high $, and no short cuts. A good rebuilder will stand by their work. Doing the babbiting is an art. Not many people know how to do it correctly. The person who did my engine babbiting was a Model A club member taught by a person who only did Packard and Pierce Arrow restorations. The rest of the engine rebuild was done by a shop in Rochester, MN who had a reputation for building race car engines. The engine was done about 20 years ago and still runs great. Drive it about once a week depending on weather to go to the Post Office.
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Old 07-20-2021, 12:12 PM   #23
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For an Apple-to-Apples comparison, compare the New Engine Kit (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) to similar refurbished original parts.
Terry, you are correct on all aspects of your comparison. There is no doubt in my mind that your cylinder block is a much superior piece when compared to a used, original cylinder block. I doubt you will find anyone that would say your product is not a value at the $4k price-point.


The point I was making is when someone has a budget of $5k to receive a fully machined engine vs. using your engine kit, I doubt that any machine shop can produce a turn-key engine utilizing all of your components, and then add in the costs of the items I listed above in a refurbished condition, -then still do the assembly work and be within the $5k budget.
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Old 07-20-2021, 01:55 PM   #24
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Terry, you are correct on all aspects of your comparison. There is no doubt in my mind that your cylinder block is a much superior piece when compared to a used, original cylinder block. I doubt you will find anyone that would say your product is not a value at the $4k price-point.


The point I was making is when someone has a budget of $5k to receive a fully machined engine vs. using your engine kit, I doubt that any machine shop can produce a turn-key engine utilizing all of your components, and then add in the costs of the items I listed above in a refurbished condition, -then still do the assembly work and be within the $5k budget.
So what would you estimate the total cost including labor and additional parts to be for a turn key engine ready to install using a B cam and a 6.0 head excluding manifolds, carb and ignition and water pump. I know more than $5K but how much more. I think the kit is reasonably priced. I'm not trying to scare anyone.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Engine builders utilizing the "New Engine Kit" receive a discounted price when ordering 5 or more at the same time. Money saved with this discount can be used to buy or refurbish other parts.

Our preference is to sell to builders instead of individuals.

If a customer doesn't supply a good core, much of a rebuilders time is spent finding a good core that is economically rebuildable. Steve Becker at Bert's goes through 12 engines to find a good core. To find a good core, the engine has to be completely disassembled, cleaned, checked for cracks, and then an estimate can be made regarding the work needed.

The following statement is from the "Builders Guide".
We strongly recommend that you have your new engine built by a professional mechanic that has the knowledge, experience, and equipment to ensure a product that he can guarantee.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:30 PM   #26
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There's no excuse for your engine to have failed other than faulty machine work. We've talked in person and I know you're not abusing your car. You're just expecting it to perform as designed, and promised by the engine builder, and that's not too much to ask.

If Brent realized who the engine builder is, he knows this builder personally and maybe his choice of wording would change. Brent mainly messes with Model T's and this builder is popular in that hobby.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:50 PM   #27
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There's no excuse for your engine to have failed other than faulty machine work. We've talked in person and I know you're not abusing your car. You're just expecting it to perform as designed, and promised by the engine builder, and that's not too much to ask.

If Brent realized who the engine builder is, he knows this builder personally and maybe his choice of wording would change. Brent mainly messes with Model T's and this builder is popular in that hobby.

Thanks Jordan. I now have a pretty good idea who your are referring to. (Is Gig -em a clue?? ) If it is whom I'm guessing, the last I heard he was outsourcing most of his machine work and just doing the casting work & line-boring work in-house. If so, maybe that's the problem?? Maybe he is now doing some machine work in-house, and that is the problem??

None the less, having that rebuilder do the failure inspection still might be the best option for Steve. If the rebuilder has a chance to make it right and does so, then Steve is a winner. If something else failed that was clearly not the fault of anyone's wrong doing, then at least Steve knows and does not falsely harbor a frustration against someone.
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Mr goodcar,
You are not liable to ‘scare’ anyone , even if you tried, that is anyone who has experience with cars…. and particularly experience with old cars !
There have been many threads here, concerning costs of rebuilding model A and B engines. And tons of threads regarding buying questionable (junk) engines… to avoid the big $ involved to have a proper rebuild !
What does ‘REBUILT’ mean anyway ??? Think on that for a moment. How many times have you bought a car or just an engine, and the seller told you that the engine was ‘rebuilt’. How many times did that statement seal the deal/sale…. and that turns out be …. not true !!
How many rebuilt engine sellers issue a warranty in writing ? It is a buyer beware world.. most know that and we still get had … for small $ or big $.
What were we expecting when we buy a rebuilt for small $ ?

You get what you pay for saying , still has some truth to it, eh ?? Maybe not.

Those who like to spend their $ wisely, WILL purchase the Burtz new blk package… IMO.
And it is wise to have a big buck (A/B) engine dynod….(proof of function) prior to shelling out 5 to 10k +. Again JMO.

How many get a written detailed warranty and / or dyno results ? WHAT… none you say !
If ‘builder’ wont even talk to you about these very important things, you can always walk !
Who walks … anyone ?
The Burtz blk package is made in such way that a lot of youse with some mechanical ability can do work that saves $ in the engine building process.
AND, the available tech support is unprecedented!! Check it out , you may be surprised at how much you can do… and by how much you can save. And, you are working with NEW improved parts !
And, a manual of parts numbers/sources and instructions … that can guide you/ ME.
Hey, there is a heck of a lot of satisfaction in knowing that you did the work !
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by goodcar View Post
So what would you estimate the total cost including labor and additional parts to be for a turn key engine ready to install using a B cam and a 6.0 head excluding manifolds, carb and ignition and water pump. I know more than $5K but how much more. I think the kit is reasonably priced. I'm not trying to scare anyone.

Since I have not assembled one of Terry's engine, so any amount I would state would just be a guess however there are some machining related tasks that I would definitely would want to do, -or at least check measurements on.

For example;
  • While I realize the crankshaft is new, I would at least want to check the balance on it. I would also want to check diameters of the pins and measure run-out on the flange. It's not that I don't trust the piece, ...it's that I need to verify it is within spec since my name would be on it. When I grind a crankshaft in-house, I verify my work afterwards to, just so there are no malfunctions.

  • With the crankshaft balanced, I would then want to rebuild the flywheel, -or purchase one of Terry's however the same applies to verifying balance. At minimum you would still need to spin them to be able to work the pressure plate. Much of the cost is set-up and calibration.

  • Next would be the rods. They are new, but how close are they on weight? Can they be made better? Some manufacturers may feel that +/- 10g is within specs. I shoot for 0.0g +/-.

  • I am not sure if Terry's block come honed to size, but I would at least want to bolt a torque plate on and verify sizing. Piston sizing these days can be as much as 0.001 difference between the set on cast. Forged pistons definitely hold a tighter tolerance however they come with a larger price tag. Being able to hone a bore to fit the piston is always a plus.

  • I am not sure how Terry's block comes with Valve seat dimensions, but I would expect that it does not come with guides installed. Ideally I would want to install guides and cut my own seats. I am not sure if oversized seats is an option when ordering ...and if not, then 1.825 seats would need to be installed and cut for 1.750 intake valves. In the perfect world, cutting a 3-angle valve seat and checking concentricity is a plus in adding performance.

  • I am not sure how the deck is prepared, but at minimum I would want to check RA finish and verify it being parallel to the centerline. Again, not stating it would be off, but verifying is always the prudent thing to do when this much $$ is involved. I always re-surface new cylinder heads simply as a verification and an effort to lower the RA finish.
  • Overall, the assembly time is likely similar. Items like chamfering holes and chasing threads may or may not be needed, but again verification eliminates the need for excuses.


As for parts, you can likely add those numbers yourself. There are options for type & quality of pistons, rings, valves, gears, oil pumps, gaskets, fasteners, and etc. that having pricing all over the map too. I know this did not answer your question regarding $$ costs, but I think it definitely shows what procedures I would want to do when building this caliber of powerplant.
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Old 07-20-2021, 06:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Brent,

I admit my $5,000 was a guess. But it depends on what your donor engine is. If you have an engine which has a lot of nice reusable stuff like a lightened flywheel with V8 clutch, a nice high compression head maybe Snyder 5.5, good manifolds with a Weber carb, Ares high flow muffler, cam, valves, etc., then you can save a lot of money. You will have to buy pistons and rings and may have to hone the cylinders to fit. If you do all the checking and assembly work yourself (owner does the work) then there is additional saving.

Or, sell the running nice engine and re buy all new stuff.
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:10 PM   #31
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Brent,

The dimensions and tolerances of the new cylinder block match Ford drawing A-6015 with the exception of the cylinder bores. The Ford drawing calls for the bores to be rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter. The new engine has the cylinder bores plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

In a similar manner, the crankshaft, connecting rods, and flywheel match the Ford drawings where they interface with original Ford parts.

Surface finishes, materials, and heat treatments are all modern instead of 90-year-old technology.

Every cylinder block has a unique serial number for Quality Assurance purposes.

Every component of the "New Engine Kit" is manufactured using the same CNC program and on the same CNC machines.

Periodically, a component is pulled for Quality Assurance inspection in a temperature-controlled room and verified with a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to ensure that it matches the drawing requirements.

The crankshaft and connecting rods are balanced to the same tolerances as other engines made in the factory that rev to 7000 RPM.

We would be happy to sell engine kits to you and have you as one of our engine builders.

To satisfy yourself on the quality of the new engine you may want to verify one at your expense, but to charge your customers for what you outlined above is not right.

Why do you want to install intake valve seats?

John Lampl had a serious talk with one of our overseas distributors. Instead of reselling the un-built "New Engine Kits" at a small profit, he was wanting to re-hone the cylinders and do a bunch of other unneeded work to increase his profit margin.

If you reply to [email protected], I'll be happy to provide the contact information of engine builders.
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:10 PM   #32
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

My latest one, I never even asked about price. I was looking for reliability. I did not go with the Scat crank, because I figured super new design, in a quite old design may not get me anywhere...
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Old 07-20-2021, 10:57 PM   #33
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Appreciate everyone's input very much. I may try to haul the car to the builder and see what he comes up with... unfortunately that is a 6 hour round trip drive pulling a trailer. I will keep everyone informed once I speak to him and take time to diagnose.
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Old 07-20-2021, 11:57 PM   #34
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Gene F,

The SCAT crankshafts are a good product because they have no fatigue cycles when new.

The downside is that they are a steel-fits-all forging made in India that can be machined to become a Model A crankshaft, a Chevrolet crankshaft, or a Model B crankshaft with Model A size connecting rod journals.

There is not enough material on the SCAT forging for Model B rod journals.

Forged steel has little damping which is another subject.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Thanks Terry, ...I am going to comment in red below. I truly appreciate your interaction and I do apologize to Steve for plugging up his thread.


The dimensions and tolerances of the new cylinder block match Ford drawing A-6015 with the exception of the cylinder bores. The Ford drawing calls for the bores to be rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter. The new engine has the cylinder bores plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.
I also have the 6015 print. My print is the 03/15/28 print with the EI #7753. I have never really understand why the engineers chose the word 'roll' there as the engineering books I have referenced use the term roll to describe the exterior of a wound surface. A coupe of other points to add to this confusion is on my print in Section K-K it also calls for the bores to be reamed to 3.873/3.874. If the term 'roll' is synonymous with honed, then having a hone hash of 0.001" is pretty minute IMO. I have always assumed this print likely does not specify finish work since it does not describe valve seat finishes that I have found. Maybe this is on another print that I need to look for?? Also, why I finally blew-off this is because of the dimensions of the A-6110 piston print which basically called for 0.012 at the ring lands and 0.020 at the skirt. Since modern pistons do not follow those original Ford dimensions (-including adding for overbores), I have chosen to hone the bore to the dimension of the individual piston slated for that hole. Since some Model-A piston sets have a variance approaching 0.001" when comparing all 4, I just choose to use the piston's dimension as my sizing standard allowing for heat expansion clearance.


The crankshaft and connecting rods are balanced to the same tolerances as other engines made in the factory that rev to 7000 RPM.
A couple of points in this. I am a dealer for SCAT, and so I am very familiar with their product. We also field two race cars from my son's race car shop that both have SCAT components. While we did not build either of our race motors in-house, we were hands-on with the builder, and while we both were very satisfied with SCAT's components, there was room for improvement with regard to balance and so we did so. As in the case with the crankshaft and rods that you supply, at minimum the rods need to be weighed. The same for the crankshaft as it will need to be set-up and spun to have a baseline for when we balance the flywheel itself, and as an assembly. So while it may seem to some people that we are senselessly performing redundant work to increase our profit margin, it is more about verification and performing tasks on components outside of what you are supplying.


We would be happy to sell engine kits to you and have you as one of our engine builders. To satisfy yourself on the quality of the new engine you may want to verify one at your expense, but to charge your customers for what you outlined above is not right.
Thank you. I actually have been in discussions with a former customer about either he, -or I purchasing one and doing a build for one of his other cars at my shop. So yes, that day may come and I definitely would be excited to do so.


Why do you want to install intake valve seats?
Terry, I have not had the chance to look at your engine cylinder block in person yet however it appeared to me in one of the pictures that you were installing seats. If I was mistaken, then please accept my apology and you would be correct as I also feel there would be no need to install a larger seat when installing a larger intake valve.

This does bring up a couple of questions;
1) Is there any type of valve guide installed into the bore when the block is shipped to the customer?

2) Is the valve seat machined & finished when the block is shipped, -or what is the suggested protocol for that?

3) If the cylinder block comes standard with a intake valve seat, is there any option available for a larger intake valve and bowl area?



John Lampl had a serious talk with one of our overseas distributors. Instead of reselling the un-built "New Engine Kits" at a small profit, he was wanting to re-hone the cylinders and do a bunch of other unneeded work to increase his profit margin.
Terry, I cannot speak for Mr. Lampl and/or that distributor's reasoning, however I will share mine in this instance. It is rare in this day and time when a group of items are perfect (-i.e.: within specifications) each & every time, -especially in the Model-A aftermarket. Just as in this thread alone, the blame for Steve's engine failure is directed solely at the engine rebuilder. If the engine rebuilder is whom I believe he is, he is not pouring/machining the connecting rods that he is using in his engine. So using Steve's engine as an example, it was a connecting rod that failed, it doesn't matter who the vendor was that supplied the rod. It is the engine rebuilder who will receive the blame and bad reputation. While I have utmost respect for you and your integrity, however you and your vendors are human, -and as such are capable of mistakes. Suggesting that someone is doing unnecessary work to increase their profit margin is unfair from my perspective when that distributor has his reputation at stake.
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Old 07-21-2021, 11:37 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
..................
If a customer doesn't supply a good core, much of a rebuilders time is spent finding a good core that is economically rebuildable. Steve Becker at Bert's goes through 12 engines to find a good core. To find a good core, the engine has to be completely disassembled, cleaned, checked for cracks, and then an estimate can be made regarding the work needed...............

.[/I]
To me this statement says a LOT.

I have a friend that went thru this with a reputable engine builder here in the Midwest. Three complete engines later after cracks in the side of the block showed up and other problems, that the builder tried to hide with JB Weld and paint(seriously?) he was into that project for a ton of cash, and very unhappy, and still had an old block.

The availability, to me anyway, of a brand new 2021 Model A Ford Terry Burtz engine block vs. a 90 year old used block, that if it isn't already cracked may soon be, is a no-brainer. It looks like the smart $$ is spent up front on a Burtz block build. Plus you get the benefits of five main bearings.

Terry had a good presentation on this engine at the MARC National last month. I was not there but watched the video that Mark Maron made. It was very good.

Thank goodness for someone like Terry Burtz that put all of that time and effort into this job.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Ford did use a hardened steel roller set up to roll burnish their cylinders in the early years around 1914 but I don't know when they discontinued that process. This process is still used for hydraulic cylinders. This link has a photo of one of their set ups.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1377361579
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:42 PM   #38
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Brent,

The Model A cylinders are first reamed to 3.873/3.874 inches and then enlarged by rolling to 3.875/3.876 inches. Rolling and honing are not synonyms. The full name of the process is "Roller Burnishing". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_burnishing

Surface finishes are not specified on Model A drawings. The drawings frequently mention a process that implies a surface finish.

I hope that your customer wanting a new engine is on the waiting list. Our order for 500 engine kits is expected to start arriving near the end of August.

The new cylinder block has hard exhaust valve seats only. There are no intake valve seats and no guides.

The valve seats are ready for use. You may want to lap the valves. See the "Builders Guide". If a valve and guide are installed and the valve is lifted and allowed to fall from gravity, it will bounce if everything is concentric. If the valve doesn't bounce, things are not concentric.
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:08 PM   #39
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

This discussion makes me think about the rare times when I've had an engine fail in a modern car. Rebuilding the engine block from scratch wasn't even something I contemplated. I (or more accurately, my mechanic) just went and bought an engine from another car that had been running well and passed some basic checks. There are complete engines out there from projects and hot rods available at costs far lower than the cost of rebuilding. I wonder if rebuilding as Plan A (rather than Plan B or C or Z) is just traditional at this point.
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:26 PM   #40
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
This discussion makes me think about the rare times when I've had an engine fail in a modern car. Rebuilding the engine block from scratch wasn't even something I contemplated. I (or more accurately, my mechanic) just went and bought an engine from another car that had been running well and passed some basic checks. There are complete engines out there from projects and hot rods available at costs far lower than the cost of rebuilding. I wonder if rebuilding as Plan A (rather than Plan B or C or Z) is just traditional at this point.
I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:35 PM   #41
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I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.
I bet there are still Sears and Montgomery Ward maybe even JC Whitney Model A rebuilds running around today

What did the catalogues advertise them at back in the early 60's, 75 bucks exchange?
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:19 PM   #42
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I bet there are still Sears and Montgomery Ward maybe even JC Whitney Model A rebuilds running around today

What did the catalogues advertise them at back in the early 60's, 75 bucks exchange?
I have a Sears in our 29. Runs great. No funny noises, no smoke, very little dripping, just likes to mark it’s spot. We had a Bernese Mountain Dog that liked to do the same thing.

Enjoy.
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:24 PM   #43
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I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.
Wow, this is not what I would think most people will say.

Engines rebuilt during that time used inferior pistons in comparison by today's standards. Stainless valves were rarely used, one-piece guides were not an item yet (-most used Argentina-manufactured two-piece guides), good camshafts were almost non-existent and nothing then compared with a Stipe cam of today.

Then, often times cast bearing material had Lead in it, and/or it was old material re-smelted and re-used which causes reliability issues. Machine shop technology and the machinery used has improved vastly in the past 50 years too? The reason many people only drive their Model-A around 40mph is because they have a 1960's rebuilds!! Think about what Jeff is saying. A $75 engine back then adjusted to 2021 prices would be how much?
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Old 07-21-2021, 03:30 PM   #44
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Brent,

The Model A cylinders are first reamed to 3.873/3.874 inches and then enlarged by rolling to 3.875/3.876 inches. Rolling and honing are not synonyms. The full name of the process is "Roller Burnishing". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_burnishing

Surface finishes are not specified on Model A drawings. The drawings frequently mention a process that implies a surface finish.
So are we thinking the finished size was 3.875/3.876, -or are we speculating there was an additional honing step to follow the roller process? If so, what is the target finish size of the bore after honing?
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Brent,

In post 37, rotorwrench posted the answer. Original cylinders were rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

Things have changed over 90 years. The new engine has the cylinders plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

Click on the picture to enlarge.
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File Type: jpg Rolling Cylinders.jpg (73.2 KB, 76 views)
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:02 PM   #46
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I have no dog in this hunt, but I have made an observation.

The quality of aftermarket Model A parts have been questionable over the years.
Why? maybe it has to do with the fact that trying to keep costs down has forced the quality to suffer. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the market is small for Model A's and as a result parts are not necessarily made by craftsmen.

Now, on the other hand, Terry Burtz has been able to produce new parts, in China, but from a manufacturer who supplies engines for major car brands. There is a very big difference between a casting house that makes blocks and cranks vs iron skillets.

Just an observation, I have had junk parts from questionable sources and original Ford parts butchered by someone in the past. My money says the import engine is good.

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Old 07-21-2021, 06:04 PM   #47
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Wow, this is not what I would think most people will say.

Engines rebuilt during that time used inferior pistons in comparison by today's standards. Stainless valves were rarely used, one-piece guides were not an item yet (-most used Argentina-manufactured two-piece guides), good camshafts were almost non-existent and nothing then compared with a Stipe cam of today.

Then, often times cast bearing material had Lead in it, and/or it was old material re-smelted and re-used which causes reliability issues. Machine shop technology and the machinery used has improved vastly in the past 50 years too? The reason many people only drive their Model-A around 40mph is because they have a 1960's rebuilds!! Think about what Jeff is saying. A $75 engine back then adjusted to 2021 prices would be how much?
I don’t know if your right or wrong. I do know however growing up in the sixties that there were a lot of people driving Model A’s as daily drivers. Our high school lot had six or eight all the time.

The people who were rebuilding those engines were also like a mechanic today working on a 1990 car. Old but not that old. The junk yards were full of parts that you might need.

Our 1929 with the Sears rebuilt drives very nicely at well over 50 MPH. I just don’t like pushing it. It has given us 42 years of service, engine has been in the car over 50 years. Compare that to a rebuilt of today lasting 1,000 to 3,000 miles. How many times have we heard that complaint.

Poor quality today and in 1960. It happens. But just because it was rebuilt in the 60’s does not mean it is poor quality.

Sears short block 1963 price $199.95. What would that be today? $2,500.00 to $3,000.00.

Last edited by WHN; 07-21-2021 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:04 PM   #48
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I checked the US Govt web site on Inflation, that $75 in 1960 ( and I'm guessing I don't recall just how much I saw them listed for!) is something like $688 today.

Yeah I have to admit, today at that price I'd be afraid to push the car even over 20MPH
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:09 PM   #49
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I
Sears short block 1963 price $199.95. What would that be today? $2,500.00 to $3,000.00.

I looked it up it would be $1835 in today's money.

But as you said parts were a lot more plentiful in the 60's than today.

Sorry for leading this post astray I got it headed in the wrong direction.

Let's get back to the original post

Terry's new block holds some exciting promises. I think his second order of 500 will sell out pretty fast.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:15 PM   #50
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Good afternoon...I looked on the inflation calculator and that $200 short block in 1963 would be $1,750.00 today. So depending on who did the installation and what knot...the final package might well be close to $3,000 in today's money...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:23 PM   #51
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The high-school parking lot comment above... I used to work with an engineer here, and he told me he drove a Model-A back-n-forth to college all 4-years. I guess plenty of people drove them as daily drivers for quite some time.
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:24 PM   #52
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To me this statement says a LOT.

I have a friend that went thru this with a reputable engine builder here in the Midwest. Three complete engines later after cracks in the side of the block showed up and other problems, that the builder tried to hide with JB Weld and paint(seriously?) he was into that project for a ton of cash, and very unhappy, and still had an old block.

The availability, to me anyway, of a brand new 2021 Model A Ford Terry Burtz engine block vs. a 90 year old used block, that if it isn't already cracked may soon be, is a no-brainer. It looks like the smart $$ is spent up front on a Burtz block build. Plus you get the benefits of five main bearings.

Terry had a good presentation on this engine at the MARC National last month. I was not there but watched the video that Mark Maron made. It was very good.

Thank goodness for someone like Terry Burtz that put all of that time and effort into this job.
Sounds like the same midwest "reputable" builder my friends got shafted by.
Suspect he buys JB Weld by the truck load. One of them was supposed to have gotten different block. He had punch marked his block. Guess what?? The new, rebuilt block he got back had the same exact punch marks. Engine crapped out after 100 miles. Like, I said earlier, don't get taken in by fancy ads, websites and videos.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:30 AM   #53
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Goodcar,

Without naming the midwest "reputable" builder, can you tell us what state the rebuilder is in?

Good rebuildable cores are getting hard to find and to be competitive, engine rebuilders often take shortcuts. Engine cores from areas of the USA that have freezing winter temperatures are more likely to have cracks.

Please see my previous post where Bert's has to go through 12 engines to find a good core that they can rebuild economically and guarantee.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:36 AM   #54
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I too would like to know who this is so you can avoid them. I think I speak for a lot of people.
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Old 07-22-2021, 07:51 AM   #55
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It is best for people to PM each other about this situation.

Please do not post any names on the Forum. This needs to be kept private.

In all fairness we're talking about work being done on engines nearing a hundred years old.

Over that course of time these things have gone thru immeasurable stress, heating-cooling cycles etc. Henry Ford would be proud they lasted THIS long.

The over all picture is summed up by 1.) Bert's has to go thru 12 engines to find a GOOD rebuildable candidate and 2.) Terry Burtz' block package is all brand new 2021 Model A Ford material.

I can see where rebuilders today are scrimping trying to put together an engine for someone. The good rebuildable candidates are getting thinner by the year. Look at the labor and all Bert's invests in 11 blocks that turn out to be garbage. You have to get your money back somehow somewhere.

Last edited by Jeff/Illinois; 07-22-2021 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:21 AM   #56
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

I agree with Jeff that posting names BEFORE the cause is found it is unfair to engine builders.

There are many possible causes for rebuilt engine failures besides the builder being at fault.


Did you know that a few years ago in California a fellow had his USED engine lock up ... bearing failure MAYBE.

They did not investigate it any further as to the cause.

He bought a rebuilt engine and it also failed within a short time.

As I remember Pat in Santa Cruz (Not original builder) was asked to investigate.

The crankcase was empty!

Pat found a green plastic pot cleaner had been stuffed inside the oil filler cap and was totally plugged up with that White gooey stuff that forms when an engine is run for MANY short trips and never warms up.

After awhile the white gooey stuff hardens totally and then plugs the green plastic pot cleaner. With the breather plugged or restricted. the crankcase pressure builds up and forces all of the oil out the rear main bearing.

Same thing when someone puts oil in engine and slams the breather cap back down and bends the tabs in cap blocking the air coming out of breather tube.

There is a service bulletin on this where tabs in the cap were reinforced

During the discussion an engine builder said he had seen all of oil forced out the rear main when breather was plugged.

This will happen in 70 miles ... YES 70 miles.

That is just what happened in this case.

Customer installed the rebuilt engine and tested the engine and changed the oil then left on a tour. He only got 70 miles and the engine seized up.

When Pat asked the owner he said that he had just moved the breather tube from one engine to the next one without checking it.

I wonder what the odds are that the first engine ran out of oil also!

As I remember Pat said it was so plugged that he could not blow air through the cap.

Stuffing steel wool in breather cap is the worse thing that you can do.

The water vapor collects on steel wool which rusts and the small pieces of steel fall into oil pan and get into the bearings.

In this case: these were NOT copper cleaners or steel wool they are plastic fiber pot cleaners.

The lesson here is to find cause of the failure before proceeding!

Ten years later many folks will only remember that the builder was at fault not what the real cause was! So wait until the real cause is found before blaming someone.

These kind of things spread like wildfire on Farsebook and by then the untruth can NEVER be rolled back.

Last edited by Benson; 07-22-2021 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:29 AM   #57
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Goodcar,

Without naming the midwest "reputable" builder, can you tell us what state the rebuilder is in?

Good rebuildable cores are getting hard to find and to be competitive, engine rebuilders often take shortcuts. Engine cores from areas of the USA that have freezing winter temperatures are more likely to have cracks.

Please see my previous post where Bert's has to go through 12 engines to find a good core that they can rebuild economically and guarantee.
I am well aware of the difficulty of finding good rebuildable cores but the rebuilder who takes shortcuts isn't doing himself any favors. Over time the word gets out.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:21 PM   #58
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

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Originally Posted by goodcar View Post
I am well aware of the difficulty of finding good rebuildable cores but the rebuilder who takes shortcuts isn't doing himself any favors. Over time the word gets out.
By theory, your comment is very believable however it is not always factual in all circumstances, ...and that 'word getting out' is often incorrect or unjustified.

IMO, the rebuilder I think you are describing basically sells his engines on price-point. He wants to be, or near the lowest price of his competitors. Being brutally honest with you, even though it appears he can produce a great product (-because he does have many out there), my shop cannot compete with him on pricing. Because of that, I do lose some jobs to his shop. The issue in most situations is, that potential customer for me was more interested in going the route of the lower price vs. paying for the extra steps to ensure a top-quality rebuild. It is only after there is a problem that the customer starts looking for others to place blame instead of admitting where they went wrong in their decision making. Maybe where they went wrong was choosing the cheaper option, -or maybe not asking enough questions, -or maybe not having a concise agreement on the scope of work, ...or several of those maybes.

While none of us will likely ever know the full extent of what happened with your friend's engine, -nor will we hear both sides to factually establish where the blame lies, I do think it is very fair to say that in many instances there are assumptions made in a business deal that were never part of the discussion. I have found that taking extra time to digitally document the condition of a component from many angles and writing the scope of requested work in exacting detail is the way to circumvent these misunderstandings. Even then, expectations and disagreements can be an issue.

I also think it is fair to share how I was recently involved with one of this shop's unhappy customers where the engine had a massive oil leak and a clutch chattering issue. I was contacted and asked if I would repair the problem. That shop's customer was frustrated because they had sent it back twice and it still had the same issue after being returned. I agreed however I suggested that he work thru it until there was no resolution. In defense of that shop, the owner stood behind it on the 3rd trip back. He corrected the issues and paid the transportation expenses for the customer. I think that says a lot about the shop owner's character in that he tried to do the right thing when mistakes were made. Rarely does this type of 'word on the street' get told, but I do think it does need to be shared more often. Unless you have the ability to walk on water, we all are going to have mishaps and malfunctions happen.
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Old 07-22-2021, 01:47 PM   #59
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
By theory, your comment is very believable however it is not always factual in all circumstances, ...and that 'word getting out' is often incorrect or unjustified.

IMO, the rebuilder I think you are describing basically sells his engines on price-point. He wants to be, or near the lowest price of his competitors. Being brutally honest with you, even though it appears he can produce a great product (-because he does have many out there), my shop cannot compete with him on pricing. Because of that, I do lose some jobs to his shop. The issue in most situations is, that potential customer for me was more interested in going the route of the lower price vs. paying for the extra steps to ensure a top-quality rebuild. It is only after there is a problem that the customer starts looking for others to place blame instead of admitting where they went wrong in their decision making. Maybe where they went wrong was choosing the cheaper option, -or maybe not asking enough questions, -or maybe not having a concise agreement on the scope of work, ...or several of those maybes.

While none of us will likely ever know the full extent of what happened with your friend's engine, -nor will we hear both sides to factually establish where the blame lies, I do think it is very fair to say that in many instances there are assumptions made in a business deal that were never part of the discussion. I have found that taking extra time to digitally document the condition of a component from many angles and writing the scope of requested work in exacting detail is the way to circumvent these misunderstandings. Even then, expectations and disagreements can be an issue.

I also think it is fair to share how I was recently involved with one of this shop's unhappy customers where the engine had a massive oil leak and a clutch chattering issue. I was contacted and asked if I would repair the problem. That shop's customer was frustrated because they had sent it back twice and it still had the same issue after being returned. I agreed however I suggested that he work thru it until there was no resolution. In defense of that shop, the owner stood behind it on the 3rd trip back. He corrected the issues and paid the transportation expenses for the customer. I think that says a lot about the shop owner's character in that he tried to do the right thing when mistakes were made. Rarely does this type of 'word on the street' get told, but I do think it does need to be shared more often. Unless you have the ability to walk on water, we all are going to have mishaps and malfunctions happen.
All I said is what happened to several people I know who had bad experiences with this particular rebuilder. I resent your characterizing what I said as theoretically believable. These people did in fact try to get fair resolutions with their issues to no avail. No I don't walk on water and as someone who is 75 years old I am not so naïve as to think that every rebuild is going to to be perfect and not sometimes subject to a failure that may warrant a recall. This rebuilder has established a bad track record over time and yes, the word has "gotten out." His trying to compete with lower prices does not excuse his behavior.
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Old 07-22-2021, 01:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcar View Post
All I said is what happened to several people I know who had bad experiences with this particular rebuilder. I resent your characterizing what I said as theoretically believable. These people did in fact try to get fair resolutions with their issues to no avail. No I don't walk on water and as someone who is 75 years old I am not so naïve as to think that every rebuild is going to to be perfect and not sometimes subject to a failure that may warrant a recall. This rebuilder has established a bad track record over time and yes, the word has "gotten out." His trying to compete with lower prices does not excuse his behavior.
Don’t take Brent’s comments as personal. He likes to pontificate!

We’re to old to worry about others comments.

Enjoy. Haze Gray and Underway!
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:07 PM   #61
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Part of the problem is that the work we refer to as "rebuild" encompasses both what's more accurately called "repair" and what's more accurately called "restore." If I get damaged babbitt and I send my engine to a shop to redo it – and yeah, sure, take a look at the pistons and seals while you're in there – when I get it back, is it "rebuilt?" I think people use the term pretty broadly to describe a wide variety of work at a wide variety of prices.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:23 PM   #62
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Default Re: 3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

Quote:
We’re to old to worry about others comments.
I think as people get older, they start to lose their intellect. This usually shows in a lack of compassion and an inability to put themselves in other people's shoes and is typically covered by a quote like, "I tell it like it is..." or, "I'm too old to care about what people think."

They are set in their ways...

And I'd talk shit and look down at those folks, but honestly... as I get older, I think my intellect is declining as well. It's something I really want to work on.

I have a buddy that is 77 years old and he's one of the lucky ones... I swear to god, the dude hasn't lost a bit of his patience, compassion, or energy. Bastard.
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