Gas Tank

[johnsor]

I bought a nicely restored 31 Two Door last spring. Engine runs great, but I find that it must have a dirty gas tank which causes it to stall out after a short period of time. Looking in with a flashlight, it looks clean but there must be crud collected around the outlet fitting which I can't see. I dread having to remove the tank for cleaning, so will first try blowing it out of the tank with a little air pressure, then maybe blow air back in through the fitting.

Has anybody been able to correct or relieve this problem without removing the tank?

[Tiny]

Have you checked the needle seat and float bowl for crud?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi John,

Humble opinion:

A Model A "engine" can tolerate running with bearing knocks, worn rings & pistons, incorrect spark plugs full of carbon, worn distributor bushings, pitted contact points, improper timing, maladjusted carburetor, low or flat wobbling tires, broken windshield wipers, partially clogged radiator, half dead battery, torn upholstery, no lights of any kind, dirty black oil, noisy valves, & anything else one can imagine.

However, if your gas tank has a terrible case of the "crud", flaking rust, or peeling old former tank sealer presently dissolving in this new ethanol fuel, that is impeding "proper" fuel flow, please don't forget your cell phone to call for transportation back home; or call for a tow; or pack some walking shoes to walk back home; & even carry a handy prayer book to pray before leaving home that the engine does not quit on a highway with no shoulder.

Hit "Search" to try to find what others have successfully done to remedy mild or severe gas tank crud with tank still in car.

Re-circulating warm POR 15 Marine Clean through my tank full of peeling tank sealer, dirt, & rust flakes with a small $35.00 centrifugal pump from Amazon.com worked for me.

Attach pump suction line to cut-off valve opening at tank bottom & allow pump outlet to dump liquid back into top of tank after filtering through a cotton sock at the end of the outlet.

Not all tanks are alike, many other remedies such as the screen-in-tank type filter & other methods also work.

[BlueSunoco]

I like that filtering system that Mitch/Pennsylvania had shown a few days back, the one in the sediment bowl.

No real problems in this category but I'm going to install his system soon, looks like a good one....

[johnsor]

Removed the carb, blew it out but it was not dirty. Crap must be blocking the tank outlet somewhat. After I do some flushing per above, I'll install a new glass type sediment bowl I got from Bert's, although it will take some "jerry rigging" to connect it to the fuel shut off valve. I'll have to get creative. I think lots of flushing and maybe get an air hose over into the drain port compartment to create turbulence while flushing will help. Thanks for the advice. I'll post with the results.

[markyb]

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Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

I like that filtering system that Mitch/Pennsylvania had shown a few days back, the one in the sediment bowl.

No real problems in this category but I'm going to install his system soon, looks like a good one....

Today I installed the Wix version that he mentioned, I couldn't believe how perfect it fit! The diameter of the screen matched almost exactly to the filter gasket, same for the center hole. The glass bowl pinched it right up against the housing of the sediment filter. Now if I could only get my car running correctly i'd be a happy camper, but that's another story...

[Aok]

At the link the way to solve rust flakes and other crud, solved my problem

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/kellyshutoff.htm

[Mitch//pa]

don't forget to install this filter on the shut off valve at the tank. very important as a first line of defense after the crud is out

[Skrain]

I'm running into the exact same problem with the 29 CCPU I just bought. The tank has lots of rusty crud in it. I have been able to physically get a lot of it out with a magnet on an extension arm, but that method will take a while, and won't get the fine red sediment.
I'm considering using something like kerosene running through a recirculation pump to get the worst of the glop out, since I'm a bit worried about using Gas with an electric pump.
One spark, and it's Model A Flambe!
The Shutoff extension leading to the crud drain sounds like a good idea once I get as much of the crap out of the tank as I can.

[DougVieyra]

Sadly, there is not a 'quick fix' to this ever present gas-tank problem.
AoK 's Ford Garage link is the method I used for my fouled gas tank. However, first I got a small portable hose-type vacuum cleaner, stuck it down into the gas tank as far as I could and vacuumed around for awhile. Then I put in two gallons of B12 Chem-Tool carb. cleaner (make sure your drain pet cock is closed). Let it set for a day or two, drained it out, Strained it thru a gause cloth, and recycled it back into the gas tank for another couple of days. For good measure, I did this three times.(Every once in awhile, I and a friend would mount the running boards and jump up and down to give the gas tank a good 'sloashing'.) I then Drained out the B12 Chem-Tool, and installed the 'plumbing' as described in the Ford Garage link AoK speaks of. After about a month of driving around with this set-up, routinely cleaning out 'junk' from the gas, the gas tank finally got good enough for me to install one of the small screened filters up into the gas tank. Then I left off the 'plumbing' set-up and re-installed the original Ford factory gas valve and line. I have been happy with the result. But as I said - there is no 'quick fix". It does take a bit of time and hassle. AND - and this is important - Chem-Tool's B12 Carb. Cleaner EATS paint, so be careful with the pouring of it into your gas tank. I covered all cowl, hood and finders with drop-cloths and used a good funnel.

Big hassle to do this method - BUT, it sure beats taking the tank out of the car ! ! !

[BlueSunoco]

As Brent in 10-UH-C posted a while back, if anybody ever had the $$ to step forward and build an exact replica Model A gas tank they could do a brisk business. The trick of course is the dollar outlay to do this...would be pretty pricey and risky to even see break-even on this but there is a big demand.

I read once that it was a costly outlay for Ford originally, to get it right. We all ask for it BUT do we want to pay the price? Probably not

[Skrain]

I just finished running about 5 gallons of kerosene through my tank twice with a hand pump to pump it in the top, while having a hose running off the fuel shut off valve on the bottom of the tank.
YUCK!
Lots of chunks of rusty crud.
Going to let it dry out and go back in there with an extension magnet again tomorrow to fish out more of the glop before flushing it out again. I want to let the kerosene settle overnight so I'm not just pumping the crud back into the tank.

[ronn]

I set my 31 pu on a hill, leaning a bit to the right
pulled the indented shutoff valve out and stuck a garden hose in the top.
mud came out for an hour and then nice and clear.
Hooked the shop vac up for another hour and gave it a blow dry.
connected Mitch's filter and glass sediment bowl and good to go.

[rons49]

Has anyone ever investigated what a new tank ( three styles 28/29 , 30/31 & late 31) would be expected to cost as a repop. Frankly I would think $1k each would be needed to recover set up cost. These are not easy to make. I'll tell you even at that price I'll bet 200 would be sold right off.

[Skrain]

I'm thinking of putting a marine quality 20 Gallon Poly Gas Tank in the bed of the truck enclosed in a wooden box with a 6v fuel pump and new lines, and eliminating the problem altogether.
Yes, I know it isn't original, but I bet it will cause a LOT less headaches in the long run!
Kind of like a Rootlieb Speedster setup...

[markyb]

Originally Posted by rons49

Has anyone ever investigated what a new tank ( three styles 28/29 , 30/31 & late 31) would be expected to cost as a repop. Frankly I would think $1k each would be needed to recover set up cost. These are not easy to make. I'll tell you even at that price I'll bet 200 would be sold right off.

I have a buddy that is a master at metalworking, if I threw these numbers at him he'd be all over it. You really think it would pull $1000 each? I could guarantee a first rate product if he made them...most likely at least partially hand formed due to differences among the Model A bodies?

I've seen this guy take two flat pieces of copper sheet and make a copper sphere with incredible accuracy, his stills are highly sought after as well! (it's a good thing that I don't drink alchohol)

[ericr]

I think it was Vince Falter that posted a photo of a cut-open gas tank and the inside is a morass of baffle plates. He was trying to show that using tank cleaner likely misses a lot of surface.

Years ago I bought a gas tank from some parts yard in Montana that advertised they cut tanks open somehow and restored them. I wonder if that was/is a viable option since reproducing them ain't likely to happen in this lifetime.

The Company sure created a lot of problems for unforeseen-restorers with the odd idea of a cowl gas tank. Has it been in the back end like other cars, someone could reproduce it easily.

[modeladave41]

you might have an air lock in it...loosen the gas line fitting up at the carburetor with the gas on...when the gas flows tighten it back up it lets the air flow out of the line...then try it...let me know what happens

[rons49]

Ricks in El Paso gets $650 for a stainless Hudson stepdown tank, and those are way easier than a model A. Yes, I know stainless is more bucks, but not that much when it comes to indents and flanges for the dash, steering column choke rod and tap for the valve.

[spdway1]

This pic?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ericr

I think it was Vince Falter that posted a photo of a cut-open gas tank and the inside is a morass of baffle plates. He was trying to show that using tank cleaner likely misses a lot of surface.

Years ago I bought a gas tank from some parts yard in Montana that advertised they cut tanks open somehow and restored them. I wonder if that was/is a viable option since reproducing them ain't likely to happen in this lifetime.

Originally Posted by spdway1

This pic?

Yes, we have been restoring a couple Model-A tanks a month now for about a decade. That is my picture above showing the inside of a tank. I also have one floating around showing the difference between it and an earlier tank.

The scenario about someone fabricating a new tank is not really the issue per se'. Many who have the skill to do metalshaping can do it, ...but what material are you going to make it with? Stainless is WAY more difficult to metal-shape than AK sheet steel. The problem is once you have it formed, what keeps the steel from rusting again?

As far as reproducing new tanks, I have pulled several of the prints at the archives and I seriously feel the chances of me winning the lottery would happen first. It is much too involved for someone to get a ROI to even take a chance, ....which brings us to what we are more about anyway.

Why is it that whenever there is an issue with our Model-A, our first desire is to replace the faulty part yet we all brag about how we own a 'restored' Model-A?? Maybe we should call them a 'replaced' Model-A!

When you think about the entire process of tank restoration, it really isn't that difficult to do, ...it's just time consuming to truly cut it open (not drill holes in it) to gain access to and thoroughly strip everything inside.

The top issue with any restored tank is what do you coat it with after it has been cleaned? I bet we get 3 or 4 tanks in a year that the owner was convinced that after cleaning they were not going to put any kind of sealer in there. I just chuckle because the acid they used to clean with just made a bigger rusty mess for them. Also, you would be amazed at how many tanks we see that still have rocks, nuts, bolts, and all kinds of debris left inside after they were "cleaned". So here is how I think it all boils down.
.....Do the job correctly the first time with the best materials available.

.....Restore instead of replace when you know it will be cheaper.

.....Understand that tank restoration may not last a lifetime, --but neither does a paint job, upholstery, or an engine rebuild.

My personal suggestion is either safely do the proper repair yourself -or hire a professional if you do not have the ability/equipment necessary. This IMHO is proper preservation of a collector car as it makes the vehicle safer and more reliable for you and your passengers. There really is not any need for seeing new tanks to be reproduced when there are plenty of original tanks waiting to be restored (Kinda like saying my old original engine is worn out so I need to buy a brand new reproduction Model-A engine!). Lastly, very few things in this life last forever. I know that the way we restore tanks allows a tank to be re-opened later on so it really should not be overlooked as the best method. Yes, none of us has the knowledge of what the fuels will be like a decade or two down the road but if the best sealers presently on the market are inadequate against the future fuels, then I am sure we can figure out a way to re-open the tank and dissolve that sealer to make way for a sealer that can.

[Keith True]

There was a fellow around here that was busy setting up street rods for a while.He would set up a chassis,do the rough chop,section,whatever he was aiming for,then sell them as a good start to a rod.He did very nice work,enough so he has picked up shop and moved it to the west coast.He always had a half dozen tanks around to sell.You could always get a good tank from him if you were willing to pay the price.His price was always the same.If you bought him the aftermarket top tank replacement panel,or tank eliminator,as some called it,you could take your pick of tanks.He said he had dozens look into it,but just a couple of takers.When they found out what that panel costs most ran the other way.He would rather have used a new panel than cut the A tanks,but most A guys wouldn't step up to the plate.He winds up cutting the top off the originals most of the time.I don't know what that panel costs now,but I can tell you that a good 30-31 A tank can be bought here for $100.I haven't looked into the 28-29's.

[Pinstripe]

Brent After stripping the interior to bare metal, do you do anything to the surface before welding it shut. Do you use any kind of sealer afterwards?