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Old 01-12-2011, 08:11 PM   #1
Hitchhiker
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Default 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I buy.

Basically, I am build an AV8 on a budget. Here is a link if you want to see what I am up too.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=509164. I

I'm looking for a good flathead V8 to put in it. I've located a few.....


1) the most promising

1947 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine. Was running perfectly when removed for SBC conversion. No smoke, no overheating started easily. Had cyls fogged and stored indoors for over 10 years It is free and turns over. Missing exhaust manifolds.

It's local to me and he wants $1000.

2) the cheap

81A Flathead w trans. complete. But unknown condition. Not sure if it turns. Might need this for the trans?

$250

I don't know much about flatheads, except finding a good one is hard.

What should I look for? What is the desirable motor to have? Should I ask to pull the heads and pan? It seems better to buy a complete motor, then piece it together. But it seems like even a "good runner" can be a bad block.

thanks far any advice.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

The 47 Merc sounds like the better engine. How firm is he he on the price?
$750 would be a fair price. But I think, no matter what the price, the seller should allow you to pull the heads to look for cracks. If it's crack, free pay the $1000. DON'T BUY ANY "SITTING" FLATHEAD WITHOUT FIRST REMOVING THE HEADS. Many flatties "ran when parked" but heck, they would run even if the block was cracked. A seller should understand that pulling the heads is a reasonable request otherwise you really don't know what you are buying.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

As for the "Mercury" it may be that the seller was embellishing offer calling it a Merc riding on the reputation of the pre-war 239 engines while the same 59A was in the post war Fords and much more numerous and among the most common of the surviving flatheads, a great engine however when all is well under the heads. There lies the rub. The down side risk is so great that inspecting under the heads and the pan rail should be a hard line demand of the buyer, especially as the price approaches $1000. A whole lot about the condition of the engine is revealed under the heads. I don't know how things are in Seattle, but in Southern California, an undocumented 59A at that price is a crap shoot. The fact that it is being replaced by a SBC tells you something about the seller. Good Luck: Fred A
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
Basically, I am build an AV8 on a budget.
Me too, and I can tell you "budget" and "AV8" don't belong in the same sentence! You'll soon learn to raise the project debt ceiling! I'm not too sure the '47 Merc would be a 59AB. It would have a 3 3/16 bore, rather than the smaller bore of the 59AB. It's the better choice, but you need a guarantee from the seller against fatal cracks. If it's not in operable condition, well, who knows the real condition.

Bob
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobscogin View Post
Me too, and I can tell you "budget" and "AV8" don't belong in the same sentence! You'll soon learn to raise the project debt ceiling! I'm not too sure the '47 Merc would be a 59AB. It would have a 3 3/16 bore, rather than the smaller bore of the 59AB. It's the better choice, but you need a guarantee from the seller against fatal cracks. If it's not in operable condition, well, who knows the real condition.

Bob
I believe all 59AB engines were 3-3/'16" bore.

Jim
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

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Looks like you're off to a great start. Here's some pics of my 31. You will be awhile pulling everything together, but the wait is worth it. My wife isn't into open cars so I grab a sixer and head out, nothing better. I have a good supply of flattie parts and you can get me on here or on the HAMB, good luck, Chuck.


PS. It's a duce firewall and cowl vent, body is 31 A.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:22 AM   #7
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by blown49 View Post
I believe all 59AB engines were 3-3/'16" bore.
Jim
You're correct, Jim. I was thinking of the earlier 24 stud engines.

Bob
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

3 3/16" bore 100 hp 59AB would have been correct for a '47 Mercury. There's no distinction between the Ford and Mercury engines for '46-'48.

The '40-'41 or 59A engine was the smaller 3 1/16" bore, although I've heard that there were some early 59AB engines that had the 59 cast on the bellhousing yet were the smaller 3 1/16" bore, maybe they were '42 engines or factory replacement engines?

The 59AB would be my choice, you're starting out with 15 more horsepower and it's a good foundation for more performance if you should so desire. You can't beat a nice, clean engine to start with, especially if it already runs. Look in the water passages through the water pump holes in the front of the block and through the holes in the deck surface if you can pull the heads. If it's heavily pitted I would pass on it. If there is little or no pitting, it's a great choice if it's not cracked. A good question to ask is why was it removed? Usually, engines are removed for a reason although it was common in the past to remove one to drop in a SBC just because they wanted more horsepower, but I would guess they were more commonly removed due to some problem. There's lots of possibilities, just observe, ask questions, and use your head.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

It's certainly good to get a chance to pull the heads, but the seller may not let you. Then you'll have to use the other outward visible signs to determine if it's a good risk or not. Getting the seller to give you a guarantee would be a good idea, it's going to get down to trust. Use your judgement on what you can see about the engine, is it first hand knowledge about when and why it was removed, or second or third hand knowledge? Does the seller seem trustworthy?

I would recommend at the very least to get a battery and solenoid hooked up to it, remove all the spark plugs, open the carb wide open, and do a compression test on each cylinder. They should be up in the 90s or low 100s for a healthy stock engine and should all fall within a 10% range from lowest to highest.

If you can pull the heads, check for visible cracks in the deck surface. There are a couple of places where they crack that most all do, like from a few certain studs to the adjacent water passages, that are not fatal. Cracks leading to a valve seat or cylinder wall are much different and should be avoided. They can probably be fixed, but expensive. If you find any cracks snap some photos and ask on here.

Your doing the right thing, ask questions from people that have been there and then use your best judgement.

Good luck!
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

The best of the pre-war blocks were the 99A and 29A types used in Mercurys and big Ford trucks. 99A was used in 1939 well into 1941 production and the 29A was late 1941 and on through the war years. It takes some knowledge of them to properly identify. These blocks were 239-CID 3 3/4" stroke X 3 3/16" bore. They have extremely thick cylinder walls. They have unique center deck water passages compared to the 221 types. The 59A engine made from 1945 through 1948 were also 239 CID but didn't quite have the same cylinder thickness as the earlier types. Some 41A blocks were cast after 1945 that were replacement 221 blocks and they look just like the 59A types so a measurement of the cylinder walls is the only way to tell them apart. The 8BA type blocks made from 1948 in trucks and 1949 thru 1953 (USA) for all others (1954 in Canada) are also a decent motor but have to have the short bellhousing from Mercs or trucks to adapt them to the early type transmissions plus the flywheel and clutch may need to be adapted as well. They require adaptation in several ways to make them fit a Model A well but they can be set up just like a pre-war block with certain mods. All the flathead castings like manifolds, heads, & timing covers will pretty much interchange with a few exceptions.

221 CID engines & ones with 21 -stud heads are not bad engines but they have thinner cylinder walls and the old 21 studs are hard to find speed parts for. To save you time and effort, I'd recommend a 59A block for budget and ease of adaptation to the Model A. plus there are still quite a few around. The 8BA is the second best since there a lot of them around still but I would plan on using the crab cap distributor and early pumps to make it fit better in the AV8 otherwise you'll have troubles in the front area with the crossmember & radiator. Some folks modify the firewall but I'm too tall for that. If you move the front crossmember forward or the radiator then the stock hood won't fit. On 31s, I've seen folks turn the firewal around to get more room.

Kerby

PS: 221 engines will only have thinner cylinder walls if you try to bore them out to 3 3/16" to equal the 239 block otherwise the thickness is adaquate if left at 3 1/16". The 99A blocks even though in the same type, have variations in the castings from 39/40 to 1941. Information comes from the 1938/39/40/41 Ford and Mercury Chassis Parts and Price List dated May 1941, the 1928/48 Ford Chassis Parts and Accessories Catalogue dated Nov 1950, and actual personal observation of related parts.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 01-13-2011 at 06:48 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Hey Kerby,

Thanks for sharing that information.

What are the approximate thickness differences between the different '46-'48 blocks? I know if you look into the holes in the deck surface that the cylinder wall is thicker where it transitions into the deck surface, so where is the best place to measure the block to look for the difference?

Thanks,

Randy

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
The best of the pre-war blocks were the 99A and 29A types used in Mercurys and big Ford trucks. 99A was used in 1939 well into 1941 production and the 29A was late 1941 and on through the war years. It tales some knowledge of them to properly identify. These blocks were 239-CID 3 3/4" stroke X 3 3/16" bore. They have extremely thick cylinder walls. They have unique center deck water passages compared to the 221 types. The 59A engine made from 1945 through 1948 were also 239 CID but didn't quite have the same cylinder thickness as the earlier types. Some 41A blocks were cast after 1945 that were replacement 221 blocks and they look just like the 59A types so a measurement of the cylinder walls is the only way to tell them apart. The 8BA type blocks made from 1948 in trucks and 1949 thru 1953 (USA) for all others (1954 in Canada) are also a decent motor but have to have the short bellhousing from Mercs or trucks to adapt them to the early type transmissions plus the flywheel and clutch may need to be adapted as well. They require adaptation in several ways to make them fit a Model A well but they can be set up just like a pre-war block with certain mods. All the flathead castings like manifolds, heads, & timing covers will pretty much interchange with a few exceptions.

221 CID engines & ones with 21 -stud heads are not bad engines but they have thinner cylinder walls and the old 21 studs are hard to find speed parts for. To save you time and effort, I'd recommend a 59A block for budget and ease of adaptation to the Model A. plus there are still quite a few around. The 8BA is the second best since there a lot of them around still but I would plan on using the crab cap distributor and early pumps to make it fit better in the AV8 otherwise you'll have troubles in the front area with the crossmember & radiator. Some folks modify the firewall but I'm too tall for that. If you move the front crossmember forward or the radiator then the stock hood won't fit. On 31s, I've seen folks turn the firewal around to get more room.

Kerby
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

I don't know what would be the approximate thickness difference but I know that with those blocks, 3 3/8" bore was not a big concern like with the later ones. 59A and 8BA have nearly identical cross sections but I haven't seen a cross section of a 99A or 29A type block to compare. Casting irregularities in the Ford parts were common and of course core shift can bring unwanted surprises during a bore job too for those later block types.

I'd like to know an approximate too if any one has a cut up 99 block.

Kerby
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

thanks for all the great info! I think I know where there is a 40-41 ish big truck with a flathead. should I be looking at this motor for 99a markings?
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Last edited by Hitchhiker; 01-13-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:21 PM   #14
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Default Separating the Misleading from the Just Wrong?

Hope Matt is not writing a book based on the disappointing responses from this, which is a Flathead site. Not wanting to muck through it all, there is some good stuff here but some may be not quite right. "Good Luck With That!" (Spongebob)
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Matt, ALL flatheads can have core shift and sand pockets....so when you start boring always hold your breath and cross you're fingers. You can save a block if it breaks out by installing sleeves. It doesn't cost any more to bore one out to .188 vs. .030, go big!!
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:09 PM   #16
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
thanks for all the great info! I think I know where there is a 40-41 ish big truck with a flathead. should I be looking at this motor for 99a markings?
If it is the original motor, which is a big stretch at this time of the game, it will have 99T heads. Earlier ones had the 81T heads. Some early 99A blocks were stamped with "99" on the front passenger side intake manifold deck parting surface. Canadian motors had a "99" raised casting number just in front of the right side head on the block. 39/40 blocks had the core plug bosses with soft plugs in the pan rails just like the 221 blocks did and the later blocks didn't. These areas in the casting leave two noticeable bulges on each side of the block at the pan interface parting surface. There are other differences but there are also other threads on this subject if a search is performed.

The only accurate way to tell the 99A and 29A blocks is to measure the bores and note the shape of the water passage in the center of the cylinder decks. The 239s had a round port above the keystone shaped port on all the ones I've seen. 59A types all had round ports and 21A 221 blocks were both keystone shaped middle and bottom.

Don't be disapointed if it's not an original 99 type block. Many were replaced with later 59A blocks during overhauls or repairs. Racers and hot rodders have scoured the country pretty well for these engines so they are getting more rare all the time and the prices are going to be high if the owner knows what it is.

Kerby
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:56 AM   #17
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Talking Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Evening all. I'm a virgin to the flatty scene but always been an into my cars. Anyway. I got my hands on a flatty about a month ago and I've been trying to find out what type it was. Then I stumbled across this forum. I believe I've got my hands on an original 99 Canadian built flatty.has 88t heads,raised 99 in the block and the circular centre water passage.the last time this motor was started was in 1985 apparently. I pulled the heads and there is a bit of pitting in one cylinder in each head.im just been slowly pulling it apart. I've done the valves except one.and now I'm wrestling with the last piston so I can pull the bottom end out. The motor was last rebuilt in 1945.im keen as for any input and info that you guys have as here in New Zealand it's hard to find people that know about flat heads.there out there somewhere.chur.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
Basically, I am build an AV8 on a budget. Here is a link if you want to see what I am up too.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=509164. I

I'm looking for a good flathead V8 to put in it. I've located a few.....


1) the most promising

1947 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine. Was running perfectly when removed for SBC conversion. No smoke, no overheating started easily. Had cyls fogged and stored indoors for over 10 years It is free and turns over. Missing exhaust manifolds.

It's local to me and he wants $1000.

2) the cheap

81A Flathead w trans. complete. But unknown condition. Not sure if it turns. Might need this for the trans?

$250

I don't know much about flatheads, except finding a good one is hard.

What should I look for? What is the desirable motor to have? Should I ask to pull the heads and pan? It seems better to buy a complete motor, then piece it together. But it seems like even a "good runner" can be a bad block.

thanks far any advice.

Almost all the flat motors you will find that were removed by unknown people a long time ago were removed for a reason...

Most of them will have cracks...

Case in point, the 81a that came in my 1939 Deluxe... I got it running and drove it around town, didn't seem to have any problems- had three cylinders on one side with huge cracks...

I have two blocks sitting outside, as bought, pulled the heads- they looked great, both had about two feet of cracks in the pan rail...

I would bet on the 59AB, get a guarantee, magna flux and pressure test it.
One of my hard lessons is that a guarantee is only as good as the person giving it...
Karl
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker View Post
thanks for all the great info! I think I know where there is a 40-41 ish big truck with a flathead. should I be looking at this motor for 99a markings?
Do FB search for 99 block. 99 stamp --might be fake.
Find pictures of 99 block 39-42 these past pencil test.
Look for Round (one only) center coolant transfer hole in block deck---
only on 39-42 99 blocks.
Pull head and check!
Pull pan:--- 99 engines have 2.139 rod journals -- rods & caps #s are 99 or 29 239 ci engs , not 221ci engs #s 91 or 21 2" rods/caps!
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

The Canadian blocks the went to NZ & OZ generally have a raised casting of the 99 number on the front right side behind the water pump. If all you have is some pitting in some bores then you would be a lucky feller indeed. The cylinder walls can take a lot of boring on those blocks. If you wanted to keep it close to standard then the pitted bores could be sleeved or just go ahead and bore it out what ever it needs.

Cracks can happen from freezing with no anti-freeze in the cooling system or you can get cracks from overheating around the exhaust valve pockets. As was already mentioned, freeze cracks in the pan rail are common if you live in an area of NZ that gets that cold in the winter. Valve pocket cracks would be from not enough coolant in the system.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Cool.i can't see any obvious cracks. I'll take some picks and put them up.
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:36 AM   #22
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Default Re: 47 Mercury 59AB V8 flathead engine and others.. What do I need to know before I b

Rods have 29A6205 ford on them and caps have 99A.rebuild plate has bore at 3 3/16 060,
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