still overheating

[Willynch]

1930 Tudor. I have replaced the radiator, had the carburetor overhauled. I have timed the engine, replaced spark plugs. I have power, speed and some pick up, even up hills.

Still over heating after about 30 minutes.

Not sure where to go from here.

I am wondering water pump or head.

I live in southeast michigan. Because of my job, I have not been able to make any of the local Modal clubs; figured that would be a good place for help.

Would appreciate guidance or suggestions. Thanks

[rscardina]

Have you checked the water temp or is it steaming out of the cap? Mine was running water out of the overflow but didn't appear to be overheating. I installed a thermostat and it appears to have resolved my issue. I haven't taken any long trips yet to test it though.

[FRANK PKNY]

If it's overfilled it will spew out coolant from around the cap and out the overflow. Are you sure it's boiling over (steam) the addition of a thermostat in the upper hose works very well for overflow problems. If it's steam you may have a deeper problem IE head gasket , perhaps a test for exhaust gas in the radiator should be done next, not an expensive kit from NAPA. Handy to help diagnose this type of problem.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Re-Torque the head bolts & add a jar of old fashioned Bars-Leaks & see I it helps. OH, drop a roofing nail in the top of the overflow, to prevent water "splash" over.
Bill W.

[WestCoast]

I would have the out side of the radiator scanned with an infra red heat gun, that's the positive way to tell what your radiator is doing, if rad is hot at the top and cool or cold at the bottom rad is restricted, hot all over engine problem, cracked head, block, slow timing, poor water circulation from bad water pump, or plugged water passages in the block, check compression to see if you have a leaking head gasket, and do check the rad with an infra red heat gun

[Mitch//pa]

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what did you use for a replacement radiator?

[Willynch]

Replacement radiator was a Brassworks; 6 fins per inch.

WHen it over heats I have been measuring temperature in the top tank with a meat thermometer; typically temp has been low 200's.

When idling, the temp is usually 195-ish.

Seems to me, 1895 when idling leaves little room for heat transfer when driving . Granted, the moving car will have air flow across the radiator.

There is always a little overflow as it heats up. I assumed that was the coolant (water) expanding as it warms and overflowing.

After driving for a while (10 minutes) the radiator seems the "belch" some coolant out of the radiator cap. Temperature drops for a while but then climbs again. When driving, I am relying on the Moto-Meter.

When I finish the drive, I have to refill the radiator requiring almost half a gallon every time. I cannot find a system leak so I am assuming the coolant is boiling away. Maybe that is a bad assumption but the water is going somewhere.

Thanks. Will keep plugging away. Using infra red to measure temp across radiator might be useful.

[burner31]

I have to agree with the others, thermostat.
It helps maintain the negative pressure in the block and regulate the flow into the rad, both will help with cooling/overflow problems.
Worked wonders on mine.

[1crosscut]

Refilling with a half gallon each time is not normal by any means. It makes me think that you may be keeping the radiator too full. As long at the tubes at the top of the radiator are covered you have enough water. Before refilling check to see if the tubes are covered. If so do not add any more water.
Very common for folks to keep adding too much water and feeling that it is over heating because it is puking out the extra water.
Let it find the level of water it is comfortable with.

You should not have any water coming out around the radiator cap. Tighten it down and/or replace the gasket. All your extra water should exit through the overflow tube.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

DON'T forget the NAIL, it REALLY helps prevent water loss!!!! OH! I discovered that at a CONSTANT road speed, if your temp cycles UP & DOWN at regular intervals, "maybe" every 1 1/2 minutes, it's a SURE thing that you are LOW on water!
Bill W.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Willynch

When I finish the drive, I have to refill the radiator requiring almost half a gallon every time. I cannot find a system leak so I am assuming the coolant is boiling away. Maybe that is a bad assumption but the water is going somewhere.

That might just be the "normal" level for your radiator if you are adding the same amount each and every time.

Take it for a drive, leave it alone when you go back home and then on the second trip see if it needs more that the 1/2 gallon. The water is going out the overflow while you drive.

A couple of things can be done to reduce the water loss. Trimming the fins of the water pump or even drilling holes in the fins I have read works. The thermostat will slow the water from shooting into the neck and out the overflow.

Also remember that the radiator will only work if the water is getting though the block unimpeded, is the block passages clogged with rust?

[Dollar Bill]

When idling, the temp is usually 195-ish.

Does it reach 195 just by start/idling in your garage?

Do you have a thermostat in it? If so, what temperature?

[Jacksonlll]

Sounds to me like you have a pretty good head gasket leak into your water jacket. Combustion gasses getting in to the water. Any water in your oil? Level going up? Next time it is hot, lug it in third and see if it gets worse.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I know some don't like to add stuff, BUT a simple overflow bottle, hosed to the bottom of the OVERFLOW tube, & a very leakproof cap, WILL eliminate a lot of problems. When it's shut down & cools off, it WILL SUCK the coolant back into the RADUMATOR!
Bill W.

[nick c]

It could be a blown head gasket, sometimes it will not have water in the oil. It only pushes hot air into the water jacket under compression, on the intake stroke the leak is so small that it blows the small amount of water out the exhaust. Do a compression check and see if you have a cylinder that is lower than the others and look at that spark plug, it will look different than the others.
carry on nick c

[Mitch//pa]

you have not mentioned how high the coolant level is filled in the tank when cold before start up. as "1 crosscut" mentioned in his post
this is very important on the proper filiing on the model A cooling system

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would go to Menards and buy a 10 foot roll of clear plastic tubing that fits the overflow pipe. Then run the tubing into the passenger side and have it fit through a hole in the cap of an empty gallon milk jug. Run the hose to the bottom of the jug, then drive the car and see exactly when the coolant leaves the radiator and how much leaves. Drive the car up a couple hills and see if that makes the coolant leave the radiator. When the test is done you'll have the coolant to dump back in, that is unless it was being overfilled to start with.

[Ron Lachniet]

What you are adding in water is not from over filling. That would find it's own level just over the fins and stop. Don't settle for a bandaid fix. I had my radiator re-cored last winter and we drove from Michigan to the east coast and back through West Virginia on roads with 11% grades for up to three miles with 95 degree temperatures and after 2,500 miles I still do not have to add any coolant. I do have a 165 degree thermostat.

[Jacksonlll]

I sure hope you did not plug up your new radiator with crud from your engine. We are all assuming that the new rad. is good!!!!

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

I sure hope you did not plug up your new radiator with crud from your engine. We are all assuming that the new rad. is good!!!!

yep i preach that all the time

[Skibb]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

DON'T forget the NAIL, it REALLY helps prevent water loss!!!! OH! I discovered that at a CONSTANT road speed, if your temp cycles UP & DOWN at regular intervals, "maybe" every 1 1/2 minutes, it's a SURE thing that you are LOW on water!
Bill W.

Thanks to Bill, his suggestion here saved my engine. We drive and tour nicely now. Thanks Bill (& Buster).

[Willynch]

Thanks for all the insight.

Maybe I misunderstand the purpose of the overflow tube. I thought that allowed overflow to spill out. If the radiator was overfilled, this overflow tube would take of that problem.

I have been filling the radiator close to the top. It sounds like that might be a mistake. If so, why is that a mistake? Also, how do I determine the proper fill level for my radiator and my car?

Also, I do not understand why placing a roofing nail (suggestion by Bill Williamson) would be useful? I picture that as a way to obstruct the overflow tube which I assumed was there for a purpose.

Lastly, I also hope my new radiator is not just an "expensive filter". I have barely 50 miles on the car since the radiator was put in. I have drained and refilled it three times; each time the fluid has looked very clear. Hopefully that means I am OK. Lot to learn

[Mitch//pa]

looking inside the top tank you should see a baffle plate which is just above the tubes.. lower the level to that plate or just below it.. yes your over filling the rad you need to leave that much room for expansion..
the difference from the plate to the top of the tank is about a half gallon

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Willynch

Thanks for all the insight.

Maybe I misunderstand the purpose of the overflow tube. I thought that allowed overflow to spill out. If the radiator was overfilled, this overflow tube would take of that problem.

I have been filling the radiator close to the top. It sounds like that might be a mistake. If so, why is that a mistake? Also, how do I determine the proper fill level for my radiator and my car?

Also, I do not understand why placing a roofing nail (suggestion by Bill Williamson) would be useful? I picture that as a way to obstruct the overflow tube which I assumed was there for a purpose.

Lastly, I also hope my new radiator is not just an "expensive filter". I have barely 50 miles on the car since the radiator was put in. I have drained and refilled it three times; each time the fluid has looked very clear. Hopefully that means I am OK. Lot to learn

Willy, The nail is a proven old time "fix", it just sits there, doing a little "dance" , acting as a "splash over" shield & it WON'T pressurize the system. At higher REVS, the water REALLY churns in the top tank & water is gradually lost out the overflow tube, by "SPLASH" over.
AND, remember, for those that have a MOTO-METER or a temp gauge, on long runs, you notice the gauges CYCLE UP & DOWN, at about 1 1/2 to 2 MINUTE intervals,---You are LOW on WATER!
AND, like Mitch//pa said, be concerned about Rust FLAKES that get stuck in the upper ends of the radiator tubes!!! ANY amount of cleaning of blocks & heads, NEVER totally eliminates the rust flake problem. A BI-ANNUAL BACKFLUSH, helps.
IF, you could count the number of tubes, you'd be SURPRISED, at how FEW there are! IF you are able to ever see a chunk in a tube, you can suck it out with a MAGONET
AND, DON'T worry about OVERFILLING, that's what the overflow's there for, to belch out excess coolant, when it warms up & EXPANDS. But if you're running Anti-Freeze, it's important NOT to overfill & belch out/dilute your EXPENSIVE stuff!
NOT tryin' to be smart assed or loooong drawn out, jist tryin' to share what I've SEEN/DONE!
Bill W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would fill the radiator to just over the tops of the tubes, as Mitch said, then drive it and see if any more coolant goes out the overflow. If it does, then I'd remove the radiator, lay it flat with the front down and your hand over the cap opening, then fill it with water. Now quickly turn it upside down and remove you hand and see if any rust flakes come out. On most radiators it doesn't take many rust flakes to block off enough tubes to cause the coolant to fill the top tank and go out the overflow. I've been through this exact thing a year ago, and it all started when the built up rust in the rear of the block decided to let loose and block the radiator tubes.

[Smurkey]

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I know it's been said, but sounds like everything is OK to me. Just a little overfilled.

195 to low 200s isn't overheating, that's operating temp (so long as it's not BOILING over) but sounds just like the system is reaching its equilibrium and a half gallon is about what you lose if you fill to the top.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

For those with NO TEMP gauge, if it's quite hot & belching out the overflow, YOU'LL SMELL IT IN TIME TO GET OVER & CHECK THINGS!
Bill W.

[barkleydave]

I went through this fire drill and this is what I did.

1. New Bergs Radiator and New Water Pump
2. Lost 3/4 gallon on 100 mile tour in very hill conditions.

A. Checked for head gasket leak with radiator test kit... A-OK
B. Added Bill's wonder roofing nail
C. Added 165 degree thermostat.

Runs at 195 degrees on a 95 degree day up hill all day!
Last tour we were running 40-45 up long grades and NO coolant loss!

Part of the problem is the new water pumps really move a lot of water which was getting pushed over the top of the overflow tube. The nail did the trick no more loss.
Also the thermostat slows the flow slightly so not so agitated in the top tank.

[grumpyoldsman]

we had a couple of guys buy rads a few years ago and when they installed them there cars started to over heat. the new rads were plugged up with leak stop from the manufacturer. just a thought

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I DON'T know about now, but in the past, some local engine rebuilders would pour a powdered stop leak, in the block, before putting the heads on.
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

ASE technicians in a can...
i guess ill shut my doors

actually when people use ASE technician in a can it is busier
cause that garbage screws things up

[Henry's Lady's Man]

It almost sounds like a stuck thermostat popping, but it's assumed you know that nobody put one in there before you acquired the car. Silly suggestion, but worth adding, I suppose. - Chuck

[burner31]

A thermostat will actually help maintain a negative pressure in the lower block, thus reducing the boiling temp.
Don't ask me how it works, but I seen a long drawn out explanation (with pictures and arrows and everything) on youtube about it, seemed to make sense, and seems to work.
I only run 180 going up hill.
Big change from the 220/boil over days I was having.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by burner31

a negative pressure in the lower block, thus reducing the boiling temp.

Yes, water boils at 203 degrees in Denver CO. due to the lower air pressure as compared to sea level.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

ASE technicians in a can...
i guess ill shut my doors

actually when people use ASE technician in a can it is busier
cause that garbage screws things up

As a matter of fact, SA, I'm NOT an additive proponent. "maybe" some old fashioned Bars-Leaks, for "insurance" or 1/2 jar of STP in a loose/worn OLD engine. I DIDN'T condone the powdered stop leak, thrown in the water jackets of a newly "remanufactured" engine!!!
I have found that a conventional water pump ceramic seal, that continues to squeak, even after a week or so, can be silenced in a NANO second, by adding 2 table spoons of BRAKE FLUID to the radumator! It was recommended by Chrysler Corp! Chrysler came out with some REALLY neat "tricks" in the '60's
Dad

[tonhop66]

I have a 1929 Tudor I have had for many years. It has set in my garage for over 25 years when I got it out last summer. Got it running but had a over heating problem. I even had a small heat problem years ago but just lived with it. This time was much worse. I draind the block and radiator many times and even had the radiator cleaned with only small sucess. I decided to replace the radiator and Leakey water pump. When I plulled the water pump out and looked into the block I found a large Pile of rust. At idle the pump worked and sent water to the radiator but when out on the road the rust pile would stop the water flow and the motor would get hot. Cleaned out the rust pile an now it runs super cool!


.

[JDupuis]

tonhop66. Congrats on making your first post. With great information I might add. You've been a member for 7 years. Wow, I couldn't keep quiet for that long. Glad you finally spoke up. Hope to hear more from you. . Jeff

[redmodelt]

Everybody has jumped on the radiator band wagon, has anyone asked where he is setting the GVA or spark lever? You could be running lean and do you understand the function of the spark lever?

[jw hash]

sound like a head gasket to me.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: One (1) opinion from past experiences:

After (8) million quick fixes and causes discussed for a restored Model A's overheating problems, two (2) should top the list:

A. Malfunctioning radiator; and/or,

B. Malfunctioning thermostat.

C. Either one could be first or second.

[Charlie Stephens]

Do they still make a cheap test for hydrocarbons in the radiator? Maybe at a place like Pep Boys. That would confirm a head gasket leak.

Charlie Stephens

[CYB4]

At my Tudor it was a cracked cylinder head, at heavy load uphills or high speed the combustion gases went into the cooling system, pressing out the water thru the filling neck of the radiator.

[redmodelt]

Also as someone suggested way back, have you done a compression check to see if the head gasket is blown? Seems to me when you posted before you were going thru the same thing, drive the car and add water after each drive and was told the same thing, the water only need to cover the top plate in the radiator by 1 inch or so. After the water level in the radiator reaches it's running level, this is where it wants to be, adding more is not going to help except watering the asphalt.

[RonC]

You can't overfill the radiator. the water level will adjust with the excess coming out the overflow pipe. Don't clog the pipe it's there for a reason. Fix the problem. Do you have a thermostat? If so take it out it could be restricting flow. As was mentioned check your timing. Use the method on a barnyard.com. Improper timing can quickly overheat your engine

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hidden deeply in your first post and referred to often above:

"I have replaced the radiator"; and, "Still over heating after about 30 minutes".

In accordance with some of the above hints, ever think if you now tried 379 new radiators, could the:

"Still over heating after about 30 minutes" scenario still occur.

Yes or no?

[callcoy]

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What has worked for me was to reverse flush the block, remove the lower hose and upper hose, stick the garden hose in the outlet, the top angled casting with a rag wrapped it around to prevent leakage. Use full pressure, you can not hurt anything, this will blow out most rust debris.

Reverse flush the radiator from the bottom to the top, do not use full pressure or you will damage your new possession.

When you are done reinstall the hoses, buy 3 gallons of white vinegar and fill your system, do not over fill, you do not want vinegar on your paint so carry a damp rag with you while you are driving.

Test your hoses for leaks, then take your car out for a drive and build up some heat, you may have solved your over heating problem or not at this stage.

Leave the vinegar in for a week and drive it as often as you can, watch your temp. you really need an infrared temp meter to monitor things accurately, borrow or buy one.

Drain it all out after a week do the flush thing again, add 50-50 antifreeze and road test again, hopefully you will have solved your over heating problem.

I have had great success by adding a thermostat, we had one of our cars out today in 90+ deg. weather with a 160 thermostat and it ran all day long at 150 deg.

I don't think you said you had a dash mounted gauge, if you ever do don't trust it till you verify it with a infrared temp meter, one of my cars has a gauge that reads 45 degs. high. No I didn't check before I did all of the above.

Let us know when you succeed and what you did to whip it!