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Old 06-15-2018, 07:41 PM   #1
Scotty H
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Default Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

I have a 1928 tudor that I'm about to just give away . Not! The car sat for 2 years after Dad passed away and little by little I have been restoring it , the engine is clean and everything was functional . I went to start it after timing it and it rotated a quarter turn . Turned out the battery was bad due to a shorted starter . Installed new battery new starter with only a thump and a bent bendex . Dad had put the small steel crank pulley on it omitting the crank handle ,I guess I need to reinstall it .
I removed the starter and shifted in 3rd rocking the car now the engine doesn't rotate ?
Any ideas why engine did this , my next step is to drop the pan and valve cover and inspect . Maybe shimmed too much but it ran before .It also rotated rocking car in 3rd to set timing ???
Please help
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:53 PM   #2
Bob C
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Is there a bendix bolt down in the flywheel housing??


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Old 06-15-2018, 08:06 PM   #3
Scotty H
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Both bolts were on the shaft when I removed the starter but the spring was twisted , thats gotta be where I need to look but it did not look like there was parts missing .I hope the flywheel has got all its teeth . Thanks for the help Bob.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Make sure the correct bolts are in the starter at the correct locations. Once put a long where a short was supposed to go and my motor wouldnt turn either..........
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Had a ring gear slip off of the flywheel once, same symptoms. But I will check those bolts first. Sometimes we put them back the way we found them only to find that we have the same issue as before. Keep us posted, Chap
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

With the starter removed, see if you can turn the engine over by rocking it.
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

You say you put the car in 3rd gear and rocked it but the engine doesn’t rotate. Could there be an issue in the transmission? Have you tried turning the engine with the crank handle? Try taking out the spark plugs and turning the crank handle with the car in neutral. Is is still locked? Try doing the same with the car in top gear. Is it still locked? Repeat with someone hiding the clutch pedal down. You should now be able to work out where the problem is - engine or further back.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:17 PM   #8
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

It sounds like a stuck closed valve . If the engine can be turned backwards , even just a little , this should tell you something .
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:44 PM   #9
michael a
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

If it were mine I would pull the spark plugs squirt a little oil down the cylinders and with the starter removed I would try to move the motor with a pry bar on this ring gear one tooth at a time

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

https://youtu.be/_Eb9gPUEhNA

Good video on unsticking a Model A engine after 40 year sleep.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:54 AM   #11
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
It sounds like a stuck closed valve . If the engine can be turned backwards , even just a little , this should tell you something .
Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense.

On problems like this, it's best to visit the area last touched, in this case the starter swap. Most likely the problem is associated with that. Perhaps something dropped in the starter hole and is blocking the crankshaft from turning.

No dice there, then half split the problem. You can easily eliminate the transmission area with a big screw driver on the ring gear, try to turn the crankshaft. If it turns, the problem is from the trans back. If still no turn, the problem is in the engine. Next, eliminate everything ancilery that you can. Pull fan belt, pull plugs, etc. Still no turn? Sorry, you are now in the guts of the engine.

You mentioned shims, that worries me. In order to mess with shims, you've had to remove/replace hold down bolts on the bearings. Also, something could be out of place, or something could have been left in the pan. Typically, in these cases, the engine will turn backwards a bit. If it's locked solid, you may have a sized bearing, rings jammed in a cylinder, something broken, etc. Did something get into the timing pin hole and jam the cam gear? At that point, the pan has to come off at a minimum.

Just my opinion, nothing more...

So, where are you at on isolation?
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:54 AM   #12
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

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If it were mine I would pull the spark plugs squirt a little oil down the cylinders and with the starter removed I would try to move the motor with a pry bar on this ring gear one tooth at a time

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I would do the same !!! If the engine would turn a little bit backwards that would tell me that the problem was more than likely a stuck closed valve . In worst cases I would remove the valve cover and the manifold assy . I would spray the valve stems through the ports with a good penetrant so it could flow down the stems and hopefully in to the valve guides .
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:46 PM   #14
Scotty H
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Thanks for all the replies . I have dropped the pan and im going to fiddle with the crank ,but it will take a month of Sundays to finish I may have to bite the bullet and sell it .
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Quote:
Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree

Here is my thought and experience . Valves are just as likelyto stick up as down !!! If you have enough experience with engines to visualize this , here goes . The valve is stuck closed. The lobe of the camshaft is up against the lifter that lifts the valve . The valve is stuck and the lifter cai't move to lift the valve . You could watch with the pan off . When the engine is turned in the reverse direction , the lobe of the cam will turn back around to the other side of the lifter that cant move because the valve that it would lift is stuck closed . If and when the stuck closed valve or valves get unstuck . the engine should fully rotate again . Valves often can stick open . Stuck open valves cain't lock up the engine but does remove compression , completely from the effected cylinder . A tight engine can lock up easier . An engine with lots of worn in clearance wont stick as easily . I've owned and worked on model A's for 58 vears. I have had to un stick a lot of open and closed valves on model A engines as well as other engines , This is really common for older engines if they sit for long periods of time . believe it or not .
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Quote:
Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
"Just gotta say, if this were the case (stuck valve causing crank to not turn), in over 50 years of wrenching, that would be a first for me. Valves tend to stick open, not closed, and don't prevent rotation. A stuck valve on an engine that prior to a starter change turned over OK? No, disregard that post, it makes no sense."


Agree

Here is my thought and experience . Valves are just as likelyto stick up as down !!! If you have enough experience with engines to visualize this , here goes . The valve is stuck closed. The lobe of the camshaft is up against the lifter that lifts the valve . The valve is stuck and the lifter cai't move to lift the valve . You could watch with the pan off . When the engine is turned in the reverse direction , the lobe of the cam will turn back around to the other side of the lifter that cant move because the valve that it would lift is stuck closed . If and when the stuck closed valve or valves get unstuck . the engine should fully rotate again . Valves often can stick open . Stuck open valves cain't lock up the engine but does remove compression , completely from the effected cylinder . A tight engine can lock up easier . An engine with lots of worn in clearance wont stick as easily . I've owned and worked on model A's for 58 vears. I have had to un stick a lot of open and closed valves on model A engines as well as other engines , This is really common for older engines if they sit for long periods of time . believe it or not .
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

The new starter could have a bent shaft. Pull the starter to then eliminate it from the lock up problem.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:34 PM   #18
gustafson
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

" Valves are just as likely to stick up as down"

A valve would have to be stuck really hard in the closed position for the cam not to be able to push it up. As far as sticking open, only the relatively weak spring pressure is trying to close it, not the positive lever action of the cam

I doubt sitting for 2 years is long enough to bind up a valve in the closed position

His problem is elsewhere
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:05 PM   #19
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

Wisconsin air cooled V4 engines used on swathers are famous for exhaust valves sticking during the off season. I saw one snap the camshaft in half from a stuck valve. I have a Renault Dauphine with a stuck valve, so the crankshaft will turn, but not 2 full revolutions. Valves can stick in any position, and I wouldn't force it too hard if it's stuck.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:37 PM   #20
Brentwood Bob
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Default Re: Chasing my tail trying to get 1928 tudor running

When the valve stuck on an engine of mine the engine stopped. Several of us learned an expensive lesson that day
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