The Ford Barn

brsturges · 12-24-2018, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Chrome plating has become real expensive over here...and if the pits are deep you have to apply a layer that is thick enough to fill the deepest pit...thickness is proportional to cost.
May even be cheaper to spray on metal and grind.
Cold spraying metal is a bit of gamble though...if you get flaking it ends up bad real fast chewing up the seal.
Really hard to beat a speedy sleeve cost wise.
Repair products like the epoxi based works really good from pressure point of view...like in if you want to install a bearing over it...not as good for wear having a lip seal run on it.

I hear you. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time envisioning how I would drive a sleeve down that far on the axle. And I also don’t understand how the increased thickness (albeit minimal) wouldn’t cause problems. How thin of a sleeve are we talking? Seems the thinner it is, the more delicate and difficult to drive home?

Gary troxel · 12-24-2018, 09:19 AM

I think you can buy new seals that have double lips just for this situation.

rotorwrench · 12-24-2018, 09:38 AM

Speedi sleeves are so thin that they form to the shaft a bit. All that is needed it a piece of pipe or tube that will fit the driving flange. They work with the OEM seal and they have a bit of taper so the seal will engage it without hurting the lip. I fabricate drivers for what ever application I come up against so I have four or five of them now. A person can go to the hardware store and have them cut a nipple the right length from black steel pipe of a usable diameter.

This is a good video that shows how they work. It's an animation but a person gets the drift. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LiVbqL6ss

brsturges · 01-04-2019, 10:08 PM

Quick update on this axle. I loaded up some JB Weld, carefully filed down the big globs and then delicately polished it with some 1000 grit. It came out really smooth. The pictures don’t do it justice but when closing my eyes and running my fingers over the area I cannot feel where the JB Weld is. I’m optimistic this will seal, but time will tell. It may be a while before I get all this back together but I’ll update the thread when I do. Thanks for all the input and suggestions.

tubman · 01-05-2019, 02:39 AM

I like JB Weld a lot and use it for a bunch of things, but I wonder about this. Please let us know how this turns out, long term. I used some as a last ditch repair on a Corvette window regulator (threaded into it) and it's still holding after 5 years, so maybe.....

zeffer1940 · 01-06-2019, 06:01 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I am confused, I have similar banjo in my 40 LZ, the tapered axle mates to drum, 100lb
torque fit, the backing plate has an oil catch cup surrounding the big seal, located in the drum...no seal on shaft of any kind??Lets see picture of the seal being discussed here..
My issue was the bearing surface on the housing, pitted and worn..

flatheadmurre · 01-06-2019, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeffer1940

I am confused, I have similar banjo in my 40 LZ, the tapered axle mates to drum, 100lb
torque fit, the backing plate has an oil catch cup surrounding the big seal, located in the drum...no seal on shaft of any kind??Lets see picture of the seal being discussed here..
My issue was the bearing surface on the housing, pitted and worn..

The seal is mounted from the inside of the bellhousing.
To get to it the rearaxle has to come apart.
The bearing/seal surface is fixed by turning it down and pressing on a new hardened sleeve.

JSeery · 01-06-2019, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeffer1940

I am confused, I have similar banjo in my 40 LZ, the tapered axle mates to drum, 100lb torque fit.

The torque should be a lot more than 100lb!

jimvette59 · 01-06-2019, 02:05 PM

I have used undercut and flame spraying on heavy bearing surfaces and crank pulley seal surfaces with great success. JMO

Brian · 01-06-2019, 09:13 PM

Sorry...I know you're proud of your work, but really, a speedisleeve is designed to overcome exactly what you've attempted to do. It is a thinwall stainless steel sleeve that presses over the damaged portion of a shaft and provides an ultimate surface for the seal to run on. You have prepped the shaft perfectly to accept a speedisleeve, so why not do the job properly?
It is amazing how a seal can cut a groove into a steel shaft; if this happens so easily, what hope has JBweld got of withstanding the abrasion/friction from a seal? JB would not exhibit anywhere near the wear properties of the original vanadium steel alloy Henry used.
I do not mean to be-little you, but you asked how best to repair this axle, and have been offered several solutions, and have undertaked some sort of shonky, farmer fix!

cas3 · 01-06-2019, 11:03 PM

spot on brian, and well put

ford38v8 · 01-07-2019, 01:46 AM

Brian, I thought the JB Weld idea was good until I read your response. I agree, and applaud you for your outspoken but well placed criticism.

brsturges · 01-07-2019, 10:27 AM

Brian, I do not feel belittled in the slightest. I posted this to get opinions and options, and I welcome criticism of my work. I can’t even say I’m particularly proud of it - just optimistic

But your post made me do a little more research on the speedi sleeve option and I think I’ll give that a whirl. It would have been interesting to find out if the JB Weld would hold up in this application. With so much of the original surface still solid I think it would have a real good shot. But having watched a few speedi sleeve install videos, I agree that is the better solution to this problem.

JM 35 Sedan · 01-07-2019, 10:37 AM

I'd love to hear about the process and see pictures of a speedi sleeve actually placed securely in the area of wear on one of these early Ford banjo rear axles. It's easy to say how good this would be, but lets see the proof of the pudding. I'm planing to rebuild two banjo rears in the next month or two, and will go in this same direction if it looks like it will work well. Otherwise, I will go in the direction of slightly repositioning the seal in the axle housing to locate on a different, unworn area of the axle.

flatheadmurre · 01-07-2019, 10:39 AM

I use professional epoxi repair products for shaft repair and i can tell you they work real well if you want to install a bearing or a pulley on it that is static but as i stated earlier they are not very wear resistant trying to use it as a bearing/seal surface..
Not much that can beat a speedy sleeve in cost/performance point of view if you can use it.
Takes the least amount of prep and install time compared to any other method including aplying epoxi and cleaning it up.
Lot´s of different versions of bushing install liquids from loctite...some can fill up quite a large gap.

rotorwrench · 01-07-2019, 10:59 AM

Speedy-Sleeves go on easy. Lightly tapping the tube with a mallet or hammer does the trick. Save your epoxy to install the sleeve. I generally use Devcon plastic steel to set them on a shaft but any type of epoxy spread on the area where the sleeve will reside will do the trick The sleeves may only be a 1/4" wide or a bit more so make sure you place it as close to the middle of the wear area as you can. Mark the shaft where you want the sleeve to stop to center up and drive it on. You can leave the driving shoulder on or cut it with a pair of dikes and carefully pull it off around the place that it is scored for removal. The shoulder comes off surprisingly easy. If it's not in the way then the shoulder can be left on there with no ill effect. It just depends on how the seal is designed and whether it will interfere with it or not.

brsturges · 01-10-2019, 04:39 PM

So I ran into a bit of a snag with the speedi sleeves. I cannot seem to find a sleeve of the right size. They have sleeves for a 1.123" to 1.127" shaft diameter range, which is too small based on my measurements, and the next size up is a 1.154" to 1.158" range. My digital calipers are giving me an axle diameter somewhere in the 1.1370" to 1.1380" range.

Can anyone verify the axle diameter for me? I hope it is something as simple as my calipers being off. Maybe its time for a new set...

JM 35 Sedan · 01-11-2019, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brsturges

So I ran into a bit of a snag with the speedi sleeves. I cannot seem to find a sleeve of the right size. They have sleeves for a 1.123" to 1.127" shaft diameter range, which is too small based on my measurements, and the next size up is a 1.154" to 1.158" range. My digital calipers are giving me an axle diameter somewhere in the 1.1370" to 1.1380" range.

Can anyone verify the axle diameter for me? I hope it is something as simple as my calipers being off. Maybe its time for a new set...

This is exactly the problem I invisioned with using a speedi sleeve. The likely hood of finding something off the shelf with the exact ID/OD needed seemed pretty slim to me. I think finding a suitable filler that will not wear quickly where the seal lip rides, or relocating the lip seal axially by some slight amount to ride on a new area of the axle shaft, seem to be the best ideas to me.

Tildadog · 01-11-2019, 11:10 PM

If you live near a local marina, this type of damage is very common with old boat shafts and most marina operators know that old guy with a machine shop that can build up the metal and then turn it back to original specs. Just an idea.

rotorwrench · 01-12-2019, 06:38 PM

Checking several of my axles I've come up with variations from 1.130" to 1.135" with a micrometer. There is noticeable grooving in the wear areas so I measured the non wear areas where they cleaned up the forgings for that seal to ride. The machining wasn't anything to write home to Mom about on any of the four I checked.

I would put them in a lathe and turn them down to high end of the range like 1.128" for the closest speedi-sleeve which is 1.125" and use the 3/8" width. If the lathe doesn't clean up the groove, I'd fill it with Devcon Plastic Steel like they recommend at SKF and drive it on.

The only other good fix would be plating it back up with hard chrome and machining it back down but a good used axle would cost far less than what that would cost.

12-24-2018, 09:19 AM	#22
Gary troxel Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gary Troxel, Mount Vernon, WA Posts: 17	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear I think you can buy new seals that have double lips just for this situation.

12-24-2018, 09:38 AM	#23
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Speedi sleeves are so thin that they form to the shaft a bit. All that is needed it a piece of pipe or tube that will fit the driving flange. They work with the OEM seal and they have a bit of taper so the seal will engage it without hurting the lip. I fabricate drivers for what ever application I come up against so I have four or five of them now. A person can go to the hardware store and have them cut a nipple the right length from black steel pipe of a usable diameter. This is a good video that shows how they work. It's an animation but a person gets the drift. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LiVbqL6ss Last edited by rotorwrench; 01-12-2019 at 05:23 PM.

01-05-2019, 02:39 AM	#25
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,303	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear I like JB Weld a lot and use it for a bunch of things, but I wonder about this. Please let us know how this turns out, long term. I used some as a last ditch repair on a Corvette window regulator (threaded into it) and it's still holding after 5 years, so maybe.....

01-06-2019, 02:05 PM	#29
jimvette59 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Perry OH Posts: 1,329	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear I have used undercut and flame spraying on heavy bearing surfaces and crank pulley seal surfaces with great success. JMO

01-06-2019, 09:13 PM	#30
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Sorry...I know you're proud of your work, but really, a speedisleeve is designed to overcome exactly what you've attempted to do. It is a thinwall stainless steel sleeve that presses over the damaged portion of a shaft and provides an ultimate surface for the seal to run on. You have prepped the shaft perfectly to accept a speedisleeve, so why not do the job properly? It is amazing how a seal can cut a groove into a steel shaft; if this happens so easily, what hope has JBweld got of withstanding the abrasion/friction from a seal? JB would not exhibit anywhere near the wear properties of the original vanadium steel alloy Henry used. I do not mean to be-little you, but you asked how best to repair this axle, and have been offered several solutions, and have undertaked some sort of shonky, farmer fix! __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! Last edited by Brian; 01-07-2019 at 12:58 AM.

01-06-2019, 11:03 PM	#31
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,567	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear spot on brian, and well put

01-07-2019, 01:46 AM	#32
ford38v8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 6,635	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Brian, I thought the JB Weld idea was good until I read your response. I agree, and applaud you for your outspoken but well placed criticism. __________________ Alan

01-07-2019, 10:27 AM	#33
brsturges Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, Fl Posts: 362	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Brian, I do not feel belittled in the slightest. I posted this to get opinions and options, and I welcome criticism of my work. I can’t even say I’m particularly proud of it - just optimistic But your post made me do a little more research on the speedi sleeve option and I think I’ll give that a whirl. It would have been interesting to find out if the JB Weld would hold up in this application. With so much of the original surface still solid I think it would have a real good shot. But having watched a few speedi sleeve install videos, I agree that is the better solution to this problem.

01-07-2019, 10:37 AM	#34
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear I'd love to hear about the process and see pictures of a speedi sleeve actually placed securely in the area of wear on one of these early Ford banjo rear axles. It's easy to say how good this would be, but lets see the proof of the pudding. I'm planing to rebuild two banjo rears in the next month or two, and will go in this same direction if it looks like it will work well. Otherwise, I will go in the direction of slightly repositioning the seal in the axle housing to locate on a different, unworn area of the axle. __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein* Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 01-07-2019 at 11:13 AM.

01-07-2019, 10:39 AM	#35
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear I use professional epoxi repair products for shaft repair and i can tell you they work real well if you want to install a bearing or a pulley on it that is static but as i stated earlier they are not very wear resistant trying to use it as a bearing/seal surface.. Not much that can beat a speedy sleeve in cost/performance point of view if you can use it. Takes the least amount of prep and install time compared to any other method including aplying epoxi and cleaning it up. Lot´s of different versions of bushing install liquids from loctite...some can fill up quite a large gap.

01-07-2019, 10:59 AM	#36
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Speedy-Sleeves go on easy. Lightly tapping the tube with a mallet or hammer does the trick. Save your epoxy to install the sleeve. I generally use Devcon plastic steel to set them on a shaft but any type of epoxy spread on the area where the sleeve will reside will do the trick The sleeves may only be a 1/4" wide or a bit more so make sure you place it as close to the middle of the wear area as you can. Mark the shaft where you want the sleeve to stop to center up and drive it on. You can leave the driving shoulder on or cut it with a pair of dikes and carefully pull it off around the place that it is scored for removal. The shoulder comes off surprisingly easy. If it's not in the way then the shoulder can be left on there with no ill effect. It just depends on how the seal is designed and whether it will interfere with it or not.

01-10-2019, 04:39 PM	#37
brsturges Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, Fl Posts: 362	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear So I ran into a bit of a snag with the speedi sleeves. I cannot seem to find a sleeve of the right size. They have sleeves for a 1.123" to 1.127" shaft diameter range, which is too small based on my measurements, and the next size up is a 1.154" to 1.158" range. My digital calipers are giving me an axle diameter somewhere in the 1.1370" to 1.1380" range. Can anyone verify the axle diameter for me? I hope it is something as simple as my calipers being off. Maybe its time for a new set...

01-11-2019, 11:10 PM	#39
Tildadog Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: League City, Texas Posts: 6	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear If you live near a local marina, this type of damage is very common with old boat shafts and most marina operators know that old guy with a machine shop that can build up the metal and then turn it back to original specs. Just an idea.

01-12-2019, 06:38 PM	#40
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Banjo Axle Question - Where There’s Wear Checking several of my axles I've come up with variations from 1.130" to 1.135" with a micrometer. There is noticeable grooving in the wear areas so I measured the non wear areas where they cleaned up the forgings for that seal to ride. The machining wasn't anything to write home to Mom about on any of the four I checked. I would put them in a lathe and turn them down to high end of the range like 1.128" for the closest speedi-sleeve which is 1.125" and use the 3/8" width. If the lathe doesn't clean up the groove, I'd fill it with Devcon Plastic Steel like they recommend at SKF and drive it on. The only other good fix would be plating it back up with hard chrome and machining it back down but a good used axle would cost far less than what that would cost.