Cranking too fast to start

[Kurt in NJ]

I went to go for a drive, 2 times of10 seconds of cranking it wouldn't start, put it in gear to use the starter to crank it out of the garage into the light --1/2 the way out of the garage it fired --back in neutral---crank--crank no start, back in gear, crank out of the garage, 3/4 the way out it fired, pushed in the clutch quick it kept running ---drove out to the street, got 100 feet up the street it stopped ---crank--crank no start, put in gear foot off clutch and crank, starts up, go for ride around the block, runs normal,restarts normal, go for 5 mile ride, drives normal, park car ---1 week later ---crank crank crank no start, put in gear, crank--starts up instantly ----I guess I need to change my starting procedures---still havn't opened the hood to look for a reason, it runs normal once it starts.
I have been wondering how long the battery will last(14 years), it seems to be getting stronger, it not like I ever charge it other than driving ---I wouldn't think the lower voltage of cranking in gear moving the car would improve spark ---perhaps the valve stick some and they don't seat when cranking fast ---next week I will try hand cranking it first

What do you think could cause a no start with fast cranking, and then start with the very slow cranking of moving the car with the starter??

[richard crow]

check the timing that,s way the model a has a timing pin screwed in the cover

[Jon]

I'm thinking the starter is pulling the battery down too far and you're not getting a healthy spark to light it off.

[MikeK]

OK, here's a wild shot: The carb may have a performance 'flat spot' in the idle jet/ circuit. At slow crank, very low vacuum it may be pulling a startable 12-14:1 mixture. It obviously pulls a run-able A:F ratio after starting while idling, when the vacuum goes way up. But, at faster crank with a medium vac it may be passing an unstartable air-fuel ratio. Swap a known good carb off another running A and see what happens. Just don't get it wet or feed it after midnight.

[Gary WA]

If the battery is 14years old!!! Time for a new one for better spark.

[Popeye31]

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change the spark plugs.

[Jon]

I was half asleep, thought he meant pushing it, popped the clutch and starts. I'm going to bed now.

[Jordan]

Change the rear end oil that may help lol JK probably like you said, might be a sticking valve

[RichPA]

Maybe the choke isn't closing and some gas is spitting out of the main jet when the car is in motion?W.A.G.

[marc hildebrant]

12 volt or 6 volt system ?

Marc

[roccaas]

OK, I had this same problem several years ago. Tried everything I could think of to get good starting with the car out of gear, all to no avail.

Whilst perusing various information I read an article about making sure your coil was wired correctly so you would get higher voltage to the plugs. Checked the coil and it was in fact wired backwards (but the car didn't drive badly).

Reversed the wires into the coil, car still ran fine, but I didn't have to start in gear anymore.

I can think of NO reason why this could possibly cause the starting problem; but it's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[ctlikon0712]

Could a weak condenser be the cause? Not enough juice to start at the faster cranking speed (saturation) but it does when slowed in gear? Of course when its running the starter circuit isn't engaged so its drain is no longer an issue......
Just a thought. You know what they say 9 times out of 10 when you have a carburetor problem it's the distributor! lol

[Tom Wesenberg]

Pull the coil wire and check for spark to a head nut while cranking. Points???

[PC/SR]

Check all ground connections including the distributor body in the head for rust or corrosion. Maybe something moves or shifts when cranking in gear?

[Christoph]

"The average" gets probs due to : No fuel in tank.

As Kurt is a pro/guru himself, the tasks grow samewhot complicated.
(due to murphys law)

For sure its not a prob of the battery.

I vote for MikeK !!!

BUT

As Tom allways hits the nail, you might try his suggestions first

interesting one - im willing to learn
Greetings
Christoph

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I'm only an ASSISTANT GURU, so I won't EVEN guess at this one, weird?????????????? Bill W.

[Will N]

Question for the electrical engineers out there: would the starter draw more amperage when it's turning slower but under heavy load (like when it's moving the entire car while it is in gear) or when it's allowed to turn faster under less load (like when it's spinning the engine only)?

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Will N

Question for the electrical engineers out there: would the starter draw more amperage when it's turning slower but under heavy load (like when it's moving the entire car while it is in gear) or when it's allowed to turn faster under less load (like when it's spinning the engine only)?

As the starter armature turns, it generates it's own electrical force, in the opposite direction of the electrons from the battery. This is called 'reverse EMF'. At slow speed there is little reverse EMF, the starter draws max amps. At high rpm the reverse EMF is greater, the battery amp draw is less.

[Kurt in NJ]

It has a fat blue spark jumping a 3/8 -1/2" gap---don't even need to see it, can hear it inside the car---tried the add some gap to the secondary system as a starting aid for fowled plugs ---didn't make a difference in starting

Voltage drop between dist housing and pos batt terminal --0.2V
The timing is good---still goes over 60 ---other than for the starting it runs the same as the last 25 years

Using the choke--or not using the choke didn't make it start just cranking, when cranking in gear I wasn't using the choke.

The rear end oil is full ---I just drained the xtra out, filled the trans.

Took a look at a plug ---burning a light brown, slight wiff of fuel, but no wetness

It is an interesting problem, I havn't spent much time looking yet-- after all it does start without getting out of the car, when it's cranking fast it doesn't sound like it has lost compression ---the speed is even both ways, whatever it is affects all cyls the same.

Neither the idle mixture,or idle speed screws have been changed recently.

I am thinking of trying to see if there is a difference between hand cranking compression, and fast spinning starter compression, and in gear cranking compression, but that will have to wait untill next weekend unless I get out to my other place before then for the tools-----once the car is running there are no signs of a compression problem, it will pull in 3rd from 5 mph and run up to over 60

[Dave72dt]

Weak spring on the points?

[1928Pickuppain]

I think when starting in gear your putting the motor under a load and causing more vacume presure sucking more gas in once started it is good i would check the carb bowl for shit. if there is alot of junk in it maybe its time to clean out carb and drill out passages and replug. just my .02

[Jim Brierley]

It's not sticking valves! Do a complete tune-up so you know everything is right. Check the manifold bolts and carb-to-manifold bolts for looseness. It is a strange problem!

[George Miller]

Kurt are you having a little fun with us.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Kurt are you having a little fun with us.

I was kind of wondering the same thing?

[Kurt in NJ]

If I was playing I would come up with something stranger, I am presenting the facts, this is happening,
i haven't looked too hard for the cause because I can get the car to start without getting out of the drivers seat ----I will say that the carb bowl gasket is torn in several places, but that is nothing new---it's been torn for at least 5 years, once started the car runs normal, the idle is smooth, power normal.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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So, is the mystery solved yet?

Seems most likely to be points or wiring in the coil primary circuit.

[pooch]

Have someone try to start it in the dead of night while you watch the associated electrics under the hood in total darkness.

[roccaas]

Originally Posted by pooch

Have someone try to start it in the dead of night while you watch the associated electrics under the hood in total darkness.

Look closely for Gremlins jumping around under hood. The gift of a frame bell may be effective in keeping them out.

[Kurt in NJ]

This afternoon I tried again, 2 previous times the car started normally, today when it acted like it wouldn't start unless dragging the car with the starter I pushed it out of the garage to look, first I checked spark --fat blue and 3/8+ long ---not the problem,from looking and smalling the plug it led me to believe it is more fuel related so I started with the sediment bowl (first wrench I found)---nothing inside and has good flow when turned on, then I dropped the bowl, nothing obvious, not much dirt, when tipped toward the choke end fuel came out the jets , took the well out, it wasn't clogged, took the drainplug out--no debris in there, but it seemed like not much flow through the GAV, I opened it up more and flushed it with carb cleaner, nothing obvious came out but it seemed to flow more, the idle jet has had a crack in the tube soldered for 15 years, I replaced it with another one, the torn gasket I replaced ,it has been torn for a long time but the pieces aligned well and have not caused any issues before----I seem to buy one every year at Hershey and put it in a safe place--there are 4-5 hiding somewhere, I used last years,I knew it was in the glove box of the modern car I drove last yerar.

It started instantly after reassembly, went for a 15 mile ride, the idle was having a rich lope, took 1/2 turn to lean it, now it is parked, next week I will try again

Hand cranking felt like normal compression