Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

[Tim Ayers]

Hi Folks:

I know there have a few threads about removing heads studs. I've actually contributed to some of those threads. Picked up motor at Hershey. Since Sunday I've been soaking the studs with Kroil and 50/50 mix of ATF/Acetone a few times a day.

The one I tried to remove, I heated it first and melted beeswax down the stud.

I was using a Mayhew collet-type stud remover I got from my Snap-On guy. Well, that first stud I used the tool on broke off almost immediately. I was using a Milwaukee M-18 3/8" impact gun, so it's got some power, but not air gun power.

Previously, I've used the old fashioned side wheel type to remove studs.

With 47 studs to go, I'm looking for suggestions, tips, opinions on how to best proceed.

Looking at some of the remaining studs, it looks like they are going to fight me the entire way through.

[corvette8n]

Like you I'm in the process also, broke 4 of the 24 on one side, haven't started on the other side yet. The process that seem to work the best on mine is heating the stud with mapp gas(don't have an acetelyne torch), using the snap-on stud remover, and a long HF breaker bar. I put the stud remover tight against the block and put pressure on the breaker bar, if it doesn't seem to move I apply more heat and try again. Hope that helps.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

Like you I'm in the process also, broke 4 of the 24 on one side, haven't started on the other side yet. The process that seem to work the best on mine is heating the stud with mapp gas(don't have an acetelyne torch), using the snap-on stud remover, and a long HF breaker bar. I put the stud remover tight against the block and put pressure on the breaker bar, if it doesn't seem to move I apply more heat and try again. Hope that helps.

Thank you. I'm thinking of using a breaker bar as well. I was hoping the "shock" of the impact would help break the rust loose.

[corvette8n]

Like you I'm in the process also, broke 4 of the 24 on one side, haven't started on the other side yet. The process that seem to work the best on mine is heating the stud with mapp gas(don't have an acetelyne torch), using the snap-on stud remover, and a long HF breaker bar. I put the stud remover tight against the block and put pressure on the breaker bar, if it doesn't seem to move I apply more heat and try again. Hope that helps.

[papanomad]

just finished 2nd block in last year and did not break any studs. I used acetylene torch to heat studs and bees wax. if stud did not move just repeat procedure until stud moves. may take 4-5 tries but they all came out. block I just finished sat outside for about 40 years and was really rusty.

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by papanomad

just finished 2nd block in last year and did not break any studs. I used acetylene torch to heat studs and bees wax. if stud did not move just repeat procedure until stud moves. may take 4-5 tries but they all came out. block I just finished sat outside for about 40 years and was really rusty.

OK, thank you. I'm going to be really patient with the heat this time.


To be clear, are you talking about an acetylene "B" tank like you use for plumbing or an oxy/acetylene used for cutting?

[flatjack9]

I also use the heat process, then hit the stud with a wet rag. I use a torque wrench and if it won't move with 70 lbs of torque, I repeat the process.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I also use the heat process, then hit the stud with a wet rag. I use a torque wrench and if it won't move with 70 lbs of torque, I repeat the process.

I like this too. I will try it. Never thought of using a torque wrench, but that makes sense.

I'm going to use the welded nut trick to get that broken stud out.

[Vics Stuff]

When loosening those studs . Always remember to apply steady pressure to the stud to loosen them. If using a air wrench you are going to shock the stud and almost every time you are going to brake them off.
Vic

[Vics Stuff]

If you are going to try welding a nut on there . You need to first , if the stud is broken off flush or below , weld a large flat washer on there first. This enables you to be able to reach down in the hole to the stud with the mig wire to make a good weld. The nut is to thick and you will have problems getting the mig wire down through the hole in the nut to reach the stud. After the washer is welded to the stud then weld a nut to the washer.
Vic

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Vics Stuff

If you are going to try welding a nut on there . You need to first , if the stud is broken off flush or below , weld a large flat washer on there first. This enables you to be able to reach down in the hole to the stud with the mig wire to make a good weld. The nut is to thick and you will have problems getting the mig wire down through the hole in the nut to reach the stud. After the washer is welded to the stud then weld a nut to the washer.
Vic

Thank you.

[KiWinUS]

I take a slightly different approach. If I care to spend enough time & oxy acetylene I can usually get them out. But that is being very patient & spending too much time. Being very impatient I now find the quickest way to complete whole process is soak with "Howes" just as soon as possible so it can sit. Then I attempt to screw them out, if they move I work back & forth & may come out. If they dont move I just go ahead & break them off, drill a 1/8th hole thru center & then just blow remains of stud out with oxy/acetylene. It will not damage thread. This works with any stud or bolt that is not in a blind hole. I have even done this on a Ch@v race engine & screwed in a fresh stud without even using a thead chaser.
For me this is the easiest & least time consuming way & never an issue.
Good luck Tim & have fun!!!
Cheers
Tony

[FL&WVMIKE]

Until you get a heat source that can heat the stud RED HOT, you are wasting your time. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

The only thing that will reliably break that rust bond is heat... and a propane torch simply won't cut it. You need a real torch. Once you get the stud RED HOT, it will back out like you put it in yesterday. Until then, STOP. You will only break off more studs, and make life worse for yourself.

If you don't know anyone with a real torch, or don't want to buy one for this one, simple job... the MAPP gas that has the oxygen cylinder with it will work. These look like Propane cylinders, but there are TWO of them... One MAP gas, and one oxygen. These WILL work. If you go this route, get 2-3 oxygen cylinders for every MAPP unit, as the oxygen runs out really fast. However, they have gone WAY up in price since the 80's lol. I would recommend getting a real torch.

This is the Benzomatic w/oxygen. Extra oxygen cylinders are around $25 each.
https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Weldi...ic+mapp+oxygen

You can also get something like this from Harbor Freight for $329... and about an extra $50 to get the cylinders filled. (a more permanent solution) Coupons and sales are also easy to come by for the Harbor Freight stuff, so that will knock quite a bit off the price. You can also visit your local welding shop, and see what they have to offer.
https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...nks-65818.html

EDIT!!!!!
Here's the same torch on Ebay for $198!!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...BubB:rk:2:pf:0

Of course, if you have a friend with a real torch, that also works!

Good Luck!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

Until you get a heat source that can heat the stud RED HOT, you are wasting your time. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

The only thing that will reliably break that rust bond is heat... and a propane torch simply won't cut it. You need a real torch. Once you get the stud RED HOT, it will back out like you put it in yesterday. Until then, STOP. You will only break off more studs, and make life worse for yourself.

If you don't know anyone with a real torch, or don't want to buy one for this one, simple job... the MAPP gas that has the oxygen cylinder with it will work. These look like Propane cylinders, but there are TWO of them... One MAP gas, and one oxygen. These WILL work. If you go this route, get 2-3 oxygen cylinders for every MAPP unit, as the oxygen runs out really fast. However, they have gone WAY up in price since the 80's lol. I would recommend getting a real torch.

This is the Benzomatic w/oxygen. Extra oxygen cylinders are around $25 each.
https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Weldi...ic+mapp+oxygen

You can also get something like this from Harbor Freight for $329... and about an extra $50 to get the cylinders filled. (a more permanent solution) Coupons and sales are also easy to come by for the Harbor Freight stuff, so that will knock quite a bit off the price. You can also visit your local welding shop, and see what they have to offer.
https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...nks-65818.html

EDIT!!!!!
Here's the same torch on Ebay for $198!!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...BubB:rk:2:pf:0

Of course, if you have a friend with a real torch, that also works!

Good Luck!

Thank you. I have these tanks. I'll try these. They run through gas very quickly. I'll see if I can get extra tanks.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Thank you. I have these tanks. I'll try these. They run through gas very quickly. I'll see if I can get extra tanks.

If you're talking about the Bernzomatic kits, the cylinders are available at Home Depot. Just buy 2-3 oxygen tanks for each MAPP cylinder.

Oxygen is $10.97 each.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...4179/202044702

MAPP is $11.97
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...2477/203226566

Good Luck

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

If you're talking about the Bernzomatic kits, the cylinders are available at Home Depot. Just buy 2-3 oxygen tanks for each MAPP cylinder.

Oxygen is $10.97 each.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...4179/202044702

MAPP is $11.97
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...2477/203226566

Good Luck

No. I have the tote torch kit. My oxy bottle is out of date. I may just buy a large torch set

[Ronnieroadster]

Tim studs must get cherry red like others have written thats the only way to free up the rust. When I do this type of work I heat every stud yes all 48 during the same time frame and then walk away until the next day.
I use the simple side wheel remover its an old design that works well with this process. Its rare to break one doing it this way at least that's what I have experienced.
However if a stud is found broken I simply TIG weld a nut to the remaining stud the added heat from the welding helps loosen the rust then it becomes a simple removal using a socket and ratchet.
Ronnieroadster

[rich b]

Stud (and broken stud) removal is one of those things that are a nightmare to some and all in a days work to others.

Real heat (read oxy/acetylene) and the proper tools go a long way in making it the latter.

Good luck with your project.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Tim studs must get cherry red like others have written thats the only way to free up the rust. When I do this type of work I heat every stud yes all 48 during the same time frame and then walk away until the next day.
I use the simple side wheel remover its an old design that works well with this process. Its rare to break one doing it this way at least that's what I have experienced.
However if a stud is found broken I simply TIG weld a nut to the remaining stud the added heat from the welding helps loosen the rust then it becomes a simple removal using a socket and ratchet.
Ronnieroadster

OK. I pulled out my torch set and will do the same.

[Step-down]

I slide oversize nut on the stud then welded before the stud broke off . If stud is broken like Vic Stuff said different operation. I used 8ba bolts for final assembly

[KGS]

This is from "Rumbleseats Flathead Tips" by the late great Paul Garrigan.


REMOVING STUDS: There are several methods I’ve used with varying degrees of


success over the years. I continually try new methods whenever I hear of one.


Today I use the following. I’ve listed these in order of success. Just remember


to take your time and don’t get in a hurry when working on studs...... they’ll


only break and then you end up with a whole bunch of new troubles. When using a


stud puller, I use a torque wrench and limit the torque to 60ft/lbs to keep from


breaking studs. In the following, I’m assuming the heads are removed.




From Red’s Headers on 1/30/03. Limit removal torque to 75-80 ft/lbs when






trying to break a stud loose to avoid breaking it. I’m nervous and limit removal






torque to 70 ft/lbs.


Stud pullers. There are a differences in stud pullers. I use a stud puller


that grips all the way around the stud (looks similar to a deep well socket). I


think these are the best and worth the price. The common cam lock type rotates


an anti-slip grooved cam so it contacts and applies pressure to one side of the


stud. These are lousy as far as I’m concerned. I can’t begin to guess how many


studs I’ve broken in the early days using these pullers, but it’s probably in the


hundreds!.


(1) Soak the studs with your favorite penetrating oil several times a day for


several days. I prefer “BG In-Force Ion-Activated Penetrating oil” (# 438) or


“Aerokroil Penetrating Oil” or “P-Blaster Penetrant” in that order. Run a head


nut down flush with the stud and hit the top of the stud HARD with a big hammer a


few times (like it’s a nail you’re trying to drive into the block). The impact


and vibration will some times help free-up a frozen stud. Now get out the stud


puller. GENTLY attempt to tighten the stud first. Then try loosening it.


GENTLY work it back and forth... tighten and loosen..... tighten and loosen. The


majority of the time if you’ve soaked them good and worked with them, the stud


will come loose. If it won’t budge, try soaking it again over night. Don’t ever


force it unless you’re sadistic.




(2) This requires an acetylene torch. Heating the stud alone just expands the


stud and does little to loosen them. But heating the boss in the water chamber


of the block expands the boss to make the threaded hole larger. Have the stud


puller on the stud and ready to use. Light the torch and put it inside the water


chamber and heat up the boss… it doesn’t have to be red hot… just fairly hot will


usually work. As you apply the torch, put a fair amount of strain on the stud


puller. It’ll usually loosen once you have the boss pretty hot. I’ve used this


method on the last five engines… and never broke a stud… which is amazing for


this old geezer.


The above two methods have never failed to remove a stud! Shore makes life


easier.

[Flathead Fever]

I just went through this and took lots of photos which I'll try and add later. I found penetrating oil sprayed each day for several days was useless. Not one stud broke loose using it. Eventually I ended up breaking three. Then I mig welded nuts to them and got two of them out. The third one my welded nut kept breaking off so I had to drill it out using the head as a guide with a bushing in the hole to guide the drill bit. I had to drill it until only the stud's threads were left and then unwind them out of there. That stud would not give up.

Like everybody says heat them red hot and let them naturally cool I would not quench them because it might make them brittle. Plus it will make them extremely hard. Should the stud break it might be too hard to drill through.

While they are still hot I melted one of my wife's candles into the threads. It really helped a lot. This was the first time I had tried using the wax. The first stud I tired without the wax and I broke the stud. I used the Snap-On collet stud remover. This is an absolute must have tool. I used a 1/2-inch impact set to its lowest setting so it just hammers away at it. If you set it to high (389 fp) it will snap the stud right off. If you try a breaker bar it will snap the stud off. What really made a difference was a small pipe wrench on the stud. I pulled on the pipe wrench so there was tension on the stud while the impact hammered on it. That pipe wrench was the hot ticket. They all came right out except two which broke. I was careful and took a lot of time on those two studs and they still broke.

A mig weld will not stick to cast iron so it works great for taking broken bolts out of blocks.

If the stud was not sticking above out at all I first welded a thick washer to the stud. Then I welded a 1/2" nut the washer. Its important to take the plating off the bolt and washer or it will contaminate your weld and weaken it. I bead blasted the finish offof mine. One of the studs broke loose and started turning. It came out a couple of threads and broke again.
That was with the wax and gently going back and forth with a wrench. I welded another nut and I got a couple more threads and it broke again. Eventually it came out. If the threads are sticking out at all then I just weld the nut to the stud.

Even when they do break loose the "all" will continue to fight you all the way out because the threads are an interference fit. Do not run a tap into the block until you do some research. A lot of people are having their studs leak coolant because they have ran the wrong type tap into the block or had the wrong class of threaded studs. There are classifications for loose threads and tight threads. You want the tight ones or they will leak no matter how much Permatex you put on them.

There was that one stud that would not budge no matter how many nuts I welded to it. I have a Snap-On broken bolt removing kit. It uses bushings to center the drill and extractors to take the broken bolts out. The extractor did not work on this stud. It would have broke for sure if I had put anymore pressure on it. I continued to drill it out until nothing was left but threads. There is no way I could have done that without the drill bushings to hold the drill perfectly centered and straight.

[Andy]

I had good luck with a pair of vice grips. I tighten them to the max and put them on the stud opposite each other. Working them back and forth in unison starts the stud moving. I also recommend heat on the block and not the stud. Heating the stud red hot will make it weaker.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Vics Stuff

When loosening those studs . Always remember to apply steady pressure to the stud to loosen them. If using a air wrench you are going to shock the stud and almost every time you are going to brake them off.
Vic

I've found the exact opposite. As long as you don't go 'full retard' with the impact wrench, the impacts actually help break the stud loose. What works well, is using a 3/8" electric impact. They aren't as strong as an air unit, and with their variable speed, they can be used successfully. The impact method is commonly used on the stubborn spark plugs in the Ford 'mod' motors. (they are famous for breaking off)

As for doing it by hand... a well calibrated, experienced hand that knows how 'not' to break things, along with carefully working the stud BOTH ways, can also be successful.

However, there is no substitute for large amounts of heat... enough heat to turn the stud cherry red. THAT is what will get the stud loose without breaking it. Without it, you can spend HOURS trying all the tricks, and even the most careful hand is still likely to break a few.

As for the comment about heating the block instead of the stud... I consider the studs a throwaway item. I'd rather hit THEM with the heat. Do as a smart man above said... Heat them ALL cherry red, and allow them to cool. They should all come out with little issue.

Good Luck!

[Talkwrench]

I believe you have to think about angles when using those cammed stud extractors. holding load on the stud seemed to work well for me. do all the heating and penetrating stuff, allow to cool a little, each one as you go and use a really big breaker bar and put some load on with the correct angle and hold, if it doesn't move after 30 sec , back off try again, but just use load dont force it. Takes some time to do all but I only lost one.

[FireEngineMike]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Has anyone tried the $450 induction heater?

[corvette8n]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

Here's the same torch on Ebay for $198!!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...BubB:rk:2:pf:0

Of course, if you have a friend with a real torch, that also works!

Good Luck!

You have to be careful with the eBay kits as the tanks are not DOT approved and so places won't fill them.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

You have to be careful with the eBay kits as the tanks are not DOT approved and so places won't fill them.

Another consideration is the charge to fill a tank is mostly fixed in my experience. How much is filled doesn't matter very much. They may charge as much to fill a tiny cylinder as to fill a very large one.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

Another consideration is the charge to fill a tank is mostly fixed in my experience. How much is filled doesn't matter very much. They may charge as much to fill a tiny cylinder as to fill a very large one.

Yea, my kids were into paintball for a while, and it cost the same to fill a 9 ounce or 20 lb CO2 tank. lol They didn't like the hassle/labor of filling the small ones.

As for welding tanks, the same local welding supply shop leases tanks. For a decent sized tank, the lease is around $90 for 5 years. If the tank goes out of date, they supply a new one. Refills are fairly inexpensive... between $20-$40 from what I can remember. I have three... MIG gas, Oxygen, Acetylene. Acetylene is the most expensive. Many who do a lot of torching, are going to Propane cutting torches. Supposed to be a lot cheaper.

I don't use the torches very often, but when the 'smoke wrench' is called for, it comes in really handy!

[Tim Ayers]

I'm on the hunt for a larger torch kit. I've passed so many up over the years, now I'm kicking myself for not getting a larger tank set.

[Brendan]

i removed the studs from my Model A with acetone and marvels, for days. used a torch got them cherry red and let them cool. then pulled them all with vice-grips. took my time and got them all out

[Tim Ayers]

The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.

So far, judging by the few I got out, none of the Kroil, 50/50 mix, or bees wax wicked down into the threads in the block. Unreal!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.

It is an old flathead block - makes total sense! (Not that I like to have to say that!). Best of luck . . . have worn your shoes plenty of times . . .

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.

When you say third heat cycle, what are you heating the studs up with? Did you come up with a torch setup?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by JSeery

When you say third heat cycle, what are you heating the studs up with? Did you come up with a torch setup?

Yes. I switched tips on my A tank set up. Its working well.

Thought: Can I magnaflux this block with the remaining studs in it? I'd hate to go through all this work only to find out it's bad.

I did find a surprise. It's got a sleeve. I'm hoping it was done to bring that cylinder up back to .030 during it's rebuild and not a hole from a rod. (LOL!)

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

It is an old flathead block - makes total sense! (Not that I like to have to say that!). Best of luck . . . have worn your shoes plenty of times . . .

Thanks, Dale. Let's try to re-connect soon! Was up to 2:00 AM tearing this down last night.

Those dang rod cotter pins are a PITA!!!!

[JSeery]

You should be able to have it mag'd with the studs in place. I would want it pressure tested. That to could be done with the studs in. But if your taking it to a shop to have the testing done, just have them pull the studs while it's there.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You should be able to have it maged with the studs inplace. I would want it pressure tested. That to could be done with the studs in. But if your taking it to a shop to have the testing done, just have them pull the studs while it's there.

Funny, I said the same thing to my wife.

I just may, but I was hoping to do as much as possible myself to help with the rebuild budget.

[whizzernick]

I think one very important method is: MY METHOD --- HEAT STUD RED ---LET COOL A LITTLE--- HEAT RED AGAIN ---- THEN COOL OFF WITH WATER--- WHEN ALMOST COOL -- SPRAY IN ATF / ACETONE ---THIS MIX SHOULD SUCK IN --- THEN TRY TO UNSCREW WITH NOT A LOT OF TORQUE -- IF IT MOVES --- BACK AND FORTH & RESPRAY WITH ATF --- IF IT DOESENT MOVE --- START OVER WITH HEAT--- YOU NEED TO GET IT RED WAY DOWN --- YOU MAY NEED TO DO THIS MANY TIMES--- THIS METHOD WILL ALWAYS WORK IF THE STUD IS IN GOOD SHAPE --- IF NOT IT WILL WORK SOME TIMES . YOU ALSO NEED (LUCK )

[FL&WVMIKE]

Yea, you need to get it hot all the way down into the threads. The block is a major heat sink. You can't just get the surface of the stud dull red, and think you're fine. You'll need to get it nice and toasty. Just don't melt it off. lol

Good Luck!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

Yea, you need to get it hot all the way down into the threads. The block is a major heat sink. You can't just get the surface of the stud dull red, and think you're fine. You'll need to get it nice and toasty. Just don't melt it off. lol

Good Luck!

Haha. A couple of times I thought I was going to cut through, so I know!

[Tim Ayers]

After reviewing my torch set up, I think the issue is I'm not getting them hot enough. I'm going to try one more and see how it goes. I think I was nervous of warping the deck by getting it too hot.

If that one breaks, I'm going to let my machinist do it.

[Ol' Ron]

I have a friend that uses a acetylene torch to just burn then out. Quick, and does no harm to the block. However there are 3 holes you can't do this to. one one each end and one in the middle. The blind holes. Try this on some junk blocks to get the hang of it..

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I have a friend that uses a acetylene torch to just burn then out. Quick, and does no harm to the block. However there are 3 holes you can't do this to. one one each end and one in the middle. The blind holes. Try this on some junk blocks to get the hang of it..

I've heard of a few guys that do this too. Hmmm. Good idea with practicing on a junk block .

[KiWinUS]

Tim all the pain you are having trying to get studs out is the reason I follow the procedure I stated earlier
Practice on a junk block even. Chev V8er will work
You will be amazed how easy it is as I stated earlier drill 1/8th hole all the way through first & do not do any blind holes
It’s quick easy & works great
Cheers
Tony